Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Arizona and Buffalo are borderline intentionally bad. Detroit's been awful because they held on to the vain belief that they could extend their window or remain relevant for years too long--a pretty familiar trajectory tbh. They also had Ken Holland directing the ship until 2019, so that's pretty much a self-inflicted shotgun wound because that guy's a f***ing imbecile.

 

[MrBrightside]

Arizona and Buffalo are borderline intentionally bad. Detroit's been awful because they held on to the vain belief that they could extend their window or remain relevant for years too long--a pretty familiar trajectory tbh. They also had Ken Holland directing the ship until 2019, so that's pretty much a self-inflicted shotgun wound because that guy's a f***ing imbecile.

That's not true about Buffalo at all. They've been trying to be good since they drafted Eichel. They just haven't pulled it off - need to hire more guys from message boards, clearly.

There are far more examples of teams that rip everything down and then flounder for a decade than those that rebuild quickly - and hell, the Rangers wouldn't have pulled it off if they weren't located where they are.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Removing Malkin's goal production this year puts us in the bottom 10 for goal for.

Our RHD depth is awful if either of EK65 or Letang gets hurt.

Players getting extra minutes would improve their production and make up for some of those losses.

Losing Malkin's ~30 goals would definitely make the team worse, but you're likely getting boosts in production from guys like Eller from getting put in an inflated role.

 

[MrBrightside]

I'll always wonder how things would have gone if they'd have let Malkin walk and signed Trocheck instead that summer...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's not true about Buffalo at all. They've been trying to be good since they drafted Eichel. They just haven't pulled it off - need to hire more guys from message boards, clearly.

There are far more examples of teams that rip everything down and then flounder for a decade than those that rebuild quickly - and hell, the Rangers wouldn't have pulled it off if they weren't located where they are.

Nobody ever said it would be a quick rebuild, and anyone who suggested that is silly. This team's made its bed with the win now at all costs approach during the entire Sid/Geno era, and it was the correct choice, but the window's slammed shut and it's time to accept reality. /shrug

And yeah, Buffalo probably wouldn't have been in a worse spot with some random from the HFSabres board as their GM and/or coach. At least now they've got... Uh, Lindy Ruff manning the ship? An exceptionally Sabres move.

 

[Gurglesons]

Players getting extra minutes would improve their production and make up for some of those losses.

Losing Malkin's ~30 goals would definitely make the team worse, but you're likely getting boosts in production from guys like Eller from getting put in an inflated role.

Yeah, I think having Lars Eller as a 2nd line C for more than 10ish games might possibly be a way to finish bottom five in the league.

I'll always wonder how things would have gone if they'd have let Malkin walk and signed Trocheck instead that summer...

NYR or Florida probably has a cup and we have a 40 pt C signed for 6 more years everyone complains about.

 

[MrBrightside]

NYR or Florida probably has a cup and we have a 40 pt C signed for 6 more years everyone complains about.

Most parents don't think as glowingly about their children as you do about late stage Malkin.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Vinny T is playing with one of the best wings in the entire sport. So...

We got any of those? I mean aside from Rust, obviously.

 

[Gurglesons]

Most parents don't think as glowingly about their children as you do about late stage Malkin.

Large parts of Trochek's production are coming from the fact he is on one of if not the best powerplay over the last three seasons.

I'm sure he'd be a 60 pt guy here with Danton Heinen and Kasperi Kapanen last year tho.

 

[MrBrightside]

Large parts of Trochek's production are coming from the fact he is on one of if not the best powerplay over the last three seasons.

Ok. And everyone on this board has noted that (a) the team needs to get younger, (b) if the power play was better they'd have made the playoffs, and (c) Malkin is a declining asset who can't be moved for any value. Yet now we would walk away from a very good 2C who is 9 years younger signed at a similar price because why exactly.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Ok. And everyone on this board has noted that (a) the team needs to get younger, (b) if the power play was better they'd have made the playoffs, and (c) Malkin is a declining asset who can't be moved for any value. Yet now we would walk away from a very good 2C who is 9 years younger signed at a similar price because why exactly.

Because context matters a lot.

You yourself just made sure to lecture us about that earlier today no?

 

[MrBrightside]

Vinny T is playing with one of the best wings in the entire sport. So...

We got any of those? I mean aside from Rust, obviously.

25-28 teams don't have a Panarin at wing. So I guess he only would be helpful on 4-7 teams? Ok.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ok. And everyone on this board has noted that (a) the team needs to get younger, (b) if the power play was better they'd have made the playoffs, and (c) Malkin is a declining asset who can't be moved for any value. Yet now we would walk away from a very good 2C who is 9 years younger signed at a similar price because why exactly.

Because Malkin has been the better player over the last two years and his contract is much shorter and doesn't involve us having to hold on to a 30+ year old player for 5 more years.

 

[MrBrightside]

Because context matters a lot.

You yourself just made sure to lecture us about that earlier today no?

I haven't lectured anyone about context. I don't even know what you're talking about. Yes, Trocheck is playing with better wingers than Malkin is. He's also a lot younger and will certainly be more productive both now and into the future which is really what I thought we wanted. Apparently we just want to hate every option that isn't selling everyone and playing 20 draft choices.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I haven't lectured anyone about context. I don't even know what you're talking about. Yes, Trocheck is playing with better wingers than Malkin is. He's also a lot younger and will certainly be more productive both now and into the future which is really what I thought we wanted. Apparently we just want to hate every option that isn't selling everyone and playing 20 draft choices.

The point is that Trocheck is historically a ~50ish point center playing with the quality of linemate Malkin does and on a regular (nevermind putrid like ours) powerplay. He got a big bump from playing with two (one a superstar) terrific linemates and on a hot top powerplay unit all season. Context matters.

I don't see any reason to tie up a player like that for a long time. Malkin certainly isn't what he was but he's right at a league-average or even a little above 2C this year and likely next playing with average linemates and (this year at least) spotty powerplay time. Why change stuff just for the sake of it... like you guys were saying earlier, right?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

At least we don't have to worry about the 2nd line being dogshit for a--what, fourth?--consecutive season next year. Oh, dang...

 

[BusinessGoose]

Anyone who wants the pens to keep this years' pick has a room temp IQ

And that's not a bannable, post, mods

That's fact

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I think having Lars Eller as a 2nd line C for more than 10ish games might possibly be a way to finish bottom five in the league.

The Penguins didn't have either Crosby or Malkin for basically the entire second half of the 2010-2011 seasons, but they still went 20-11-4 in their last 35 games without them.

Do I expect the Penguins of today would be able to do that with one of Crosby or Malkin out? No, but I don't think "this team is a bottom-5 team without Malkin" really has any evidence suggesting that to be true.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins didn't have either Crosby or Malkin for basically the entire second half of the 2010-2011 seasons, but they still went 20-11-4 in their last 35 games without them.

Do I expect the Penguins of today would be able to do that with one of Crosby or Malkin out? No, but I don't think "this team is a bottom-5 team without Malkin" really has any evidence suggesting that to be true.

They had MAF, Jordan Staal as well as a defense that looks like Colorado compared to what we have currently.

They also had a better coach.

What a weird argument.

I haven't lectured anyone about context. I don't even know what you're talking about. Yes, Trocheck is playing with better wingers than Malkin is. He's also a lot younger and will certainly be more productive both now and into the future which is really what I thought we wanted. Apparently we just want to hate every option that isn't selling everyone and playing 20 draft choices.

Over the entirety of the Malkin and Trochek contracts, Malkin has outproduced Trochek.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They had MAF, Jordan Staal as well as a defense that looks like Colorado compared to what we have currently.

They also had a better coach.

What a weird argument.

Uh.....

I don't even know where to begin here

 

[MrBrightside]

The point is that Trocheck is historically a ~50ish point center playing with the quality of linemate Malkin does and on a regular (nevermind putrid like ours) powerplay. He got a big bump from playing with two (one a superstar) terrific linemates and on a hot top powerplay unit all season. Context matters.

I don't see any reason to tie up a player like that for a long time. Malkin certainly isn't what he was but he's right at a league-average or even a little above 2C this year and likely next playing with average linemates and (this year at least) spotty powerplay time. Why change stuff just for the sake of it... like you guys were saying earlier, right?

But wait, I thought we didn't care how good players have been the last two years or will be next year because all of life is hopeless and the Pens can't win and need to sell everything and start over? You're telling me that Trocheck wouldn't have more value as part of that tear down on the open market? Or that he won't be more productive over the next few years than Malkin?

Hell, I wasn't even really advocating for it then or now. I merely wondered how things would have gone if they'd gone that direction instead of just running it back with the core, the very thing that everyone has been decrying all season.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

But wait, I thought we didn't care how good players have been the last two years or will be next year because all of life is hopeless and the Pens can't win and need to sell everything and start over? You're telling me that Trocheck wouldn't have more value as part of that tear down on the open market? Or that he won't be more productive over the next few years than Malkin?

Hell, I wasn't even really advocating for it then or now. I merely wondered how things would have gone if they'd gone that direction instead of just running it back with the core, the very thing that everyone has been decrying all season.

You must have me confused with someone else because I don't want to tear anything down while Crosby is here, at least. I just want the inept coaching staff fired, mostly. And I certainly was and still am in favor of signing the core because not only was it the right thing to do but they STILL have not proven to be the issue on this team.

You seem the combative type. Perhaps a nice walk would help? That helps me when I'm feeling cranky. Trust me... it irks me that the Capitals made the playoffs and the Penguins didn't, too.

 

[Pancakes]

f*** Vinny Trochek. Hate his face and he's a dirty player and he would have been worse here than Malkin.

 

[Gurglesons]

Uh.....

I don't even know where to begin here

I don't know why you are acting like the 10-11 Penguins are comparable to this team.

You had a 23 year old Kris Letang and Jordan Staal. 25 year old Goligoski. And a bunch of late 20s guys in Orpik, Michalek, and Paul Martin.

We literally have no players that are anywhere near the caliber of 25 year old Goligoski.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

God help us. These yearly five months of nothingness are f***ing miserable around here and this as good as the team's gonna be for the next 10 years--needing a 10 game heater to even be within sniffing range of a WC spot.