Looking out at potential generational draft possibilities, it appears even tanking and getting the top pick is not a SID Crosby caliber player in the near future. But it will take time to accumulate enough prospects to build a core that is the base to build on.
Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"
- Thread starter Zirakzigil
- Start date
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I imagine it would be something like Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi. Getting Kotkaniemi for the 3C spot kinda defeats the purpose of keeping Ponomarev anyway.
The interesting thing about the Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi swap in this is that Kotkaniemi is less than 2 years older than Ponomarev.
Gurglesons
Registered User
I hope we could do Graves or Jarry for Kotkaniemi like I said in the post you are referencing. Just can't see it. Would rock though even if Kotkaniemi is a huge bust.
BusinessGoose
Registered User
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I think it would be more of a change of scenery swap for both guys. Both guys are comparably talented players (#4D vs 3C) and are coming off of bad years while having huge deals. Canes fans try to talk up Kotkaniemi's value because "we can just buy him out", but no owner is going to approve a 12 year buyout even if it's only $10 million over those 12 years.
Graves is a flawed player and really struggled this year, but I think he also just ended up a bad fit on a team with a poor defensive system. Fans may not like it because people overrate the hell out of young players and former high draft picks here, but Graves for Kotkaniemi is probably not all that far off from fair. That's why I was thinking Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi, they still get a decent B level prospect in the deal that can likely replace Kotkaniemi on their depth chart.
Gurglesons
Registered User
I think it's more about getting a young player behind elite, veteran talent that can play a role and won't be expected to do anything beyond be a 25-30 pt guy that can eat defensive minutes.
Carolina and Montreal expected him to be a top six player.
I'd do any of our forward contracts for Koko too. Acciari, Eller, Nieto.. getting any cap out for a 3C like him would be a good move as it allows us to layer in cheap talent around the rest of the line-up.
Rudy Russo
Registered User
ChaosAgent
Registered User
- May 8, 2018
- 17,906
- 12,202
There are 2 urgent priorities this off-season:
1) PP coaching. Though I don't think Sid and Geno are good PP players and Karlsson is downright bad, the organization MUST find a way to get to 18% at least. And make a change that gives a chance to make the last sentence look foolish. The personnel is the personnel. Bring in a new voice and let them take another shot. The Penguins at 23-25% easily make the playoffs.
2) Removing Jarry. It's time for this thing to come to an end. Blomquist is impressive. Ned is reliable. I don't know if they can trade Jarry for pure futures the way JR traded Murray, but I hope so.
The less urgent but still vital: remove either Rakell or Smith and upgrade. We need a new face in the top 6. Neither of these guys are good top 6 wingers.
1) PP coaching. Though I don't think Sid and Geno are good PP players and Karlsson is downright bad, the organization MUST find a way to get to 18% at least. And make a change that gives a chance to make the last sentence look foolish. The personnel is the personnel. Bring in a new voice and let them take another shot. The Penguins at 23-25% easily make the playoffs.
2) Removing Jarry. It's time for this thing to come to an end. Blomquist is impressive. Ned is reliable. I don't know if they can trade Jarry for pure futures the way JR traded Murray, but I hope so.
The less urgent but still vital: remove either Rakell or Smith and upgrade. We need a new face in the top 6. Neither of these guys are good top 6 wingers.
Oilers have done a “successful” rebuild? lol
OnMyOwn
Worlds Apart
- Sep 7, 2005
- 18,907
- 4,563
They finally got McDavid after having like 5 or 6 number ones. Their rebuild has been decades and still no cup, yet.
This is why I simply enjoy watching Sid/Geno in their last years and don’t just pound the table to “blow it up”
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I feel like the Oilers ineptitude with how many top picks they've had should be a glaring red flag that just getting top picks won't guarantee anything.
1000% agreed, said it better than I could.
Darren McCord
Registered User
- Dec 15, 2015
- 9,510
- 7,825
Edmonton failed upward. Nothing successful about that franchise. Just McDavid and Drai who are successful.
molon labe
Registered User
Yeah I think we could do pretty good not spending money for the sake of spending money and filling a roster that depends entirely on the production of Crosby and a big step down in Malkin (though I still love the guy) with a whole bunch of mids.
The other conversation:
Sid can elevate DOC, true. But anyone watching these playoffs should be wondering where that line would fare....and I don't think so well. I think any coach would break it up after about 3 shifts. That - that....was the Pens best offensive line. My freakin goodness. What a disaster of 82M spent. At least we were top 15 on the penalty kill. I mean, yeah I wanted to make it over the Caps and Isles and I think a new coach would have gotten us in (for the past two seasons)....but without roster makeup changes what's the freaking point. We've run the same mold over and over and over since like 2017 and it just doesn't make sense.
The other conversation:
Sid can elevate DOC, true. But anyone watching these playoffs should be wondering where that line would fare....and I don't think so well. I think any coach would break it up after about 3 shifts. That - that....was the Pens best offensive line. My freakin goodness. What a disaster of 82M spent. At least we were top 15 on the penalty kill. I mean, yeah I wanted to make it over the Caps and Isles and I think a new coach would have gotten us in (for the past two seasons)....but without roster makeup changes what's the freaking point. We've run the same mold over and over and over since like 2017 and it just doesn't make sense.
HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Translation for those who don’t speak Doobler:
“Graves was a good signing, I swear!”
“Not sure why he sucked right off the bat, but it’s his fault, not mine!”
It was a terrible signing. Just own it, Doobles.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
He’s laughing because he failed his upwards into generational wealth. I’d be laughing too if I could’ve somehow brainwashed Shanahan into thinking I’m smart, followed by the dupes at FSG.
MrBrightside
Registered User
Rossi in today's Athletic, FWIW (I know it's not worth much):
Sidney Crosby wants to stay. The Pittsburgh Penguins want to keep him.
Done deal, right?
Not quite. Not yet, anyway.
There have yet to be formal negotiations between Penguins president of hockey operations/general manager Kyle Dubas and CAA Hockey’s Pat Brisson on Crosby’s next contract, multiple team and league sources said. The sources were granted anonymity so they could speak freely about the process.
Crosby is set to enter the final season of a 12-year, $104.4 million contract he signed on June 28, 2012.
The NHL’s collective bargaining agreement permits players entering the final season of a contract to sign an extension at the start of the new league year. That date is July 1.
Both parties expect a new deal with Crosby will be reached by or not long after that date, the sources said, with contract length and salary cap hit as the major elements still to be worked out.
Crosby, 36, has not decided how long he wants to keep playing. However, his next deal will probably be for multiple seasons.
The Penguins would prefer Crosby to sign a contract that would take him to his eventual retirement, but they are prepared for a short-term deal, team sources said.
Dubas and Brisson have yet to broach the parameters of any new contract, including Crosby’s salary cap hit.
Crosby has counted $8.7 million against the cap on his past two contracts, the previous being a five-year, $43.5 million deal signed on July 7, 2007. He had a $3.7 million cap hit on his entry-level contract.
Last month, The Athletic reported a deal within the vicinity of three years at an average annual value of $10 million could work for Crosby. Sportsnet’s Elliotte Friedman wrote that he predicts two or three seasons at $10.5 million AAV.
Each of Crosby’s three contracts was signed before the NHL and its Players’ Association negotiated rules that prohibit contracts from extending beyond eight seasons for players re-signing with a team. Crosby’s current contract had a heavily front-loaded base salary, paying him $67.8 million over the first six seasons and only $3 million each of the final three seasons.
Without the luxury of significantly lengthening Crosby’s next contract, the Penguins could find themselves in the position of their longtime captain costing more against the cap than at any previous point, even though he would be in his late 30s when the deal kicks in.
However, with the cap projected to increase substantially for next season and beyond, the percentage of Crosby’s hit against the Penguins’ upper payroll threshold will likely be similar to his previous contracts.
The Penguins would prefer a longer contract with Crosby to ensure he will retire with the franchise and keep his cap hit at or below $8.7 million. His past receptiveness to both points, along with his openness to team-friendly terms, means it’s possible he’ll go that route again. But he’s never taken fewer than five seasons on previous new contracts.
A shorter term would provide Crosby flexibility as he mulls how long he intends to play. A shorter contract also would pressure management to avoid a full rebuild, which Dubas has said is not on the table.
Because of Crosby’s age, a new deal would be designated as a “35-plus contract,” so the Penguins would not benefit from a reduced salary cap hit from front-loading the contract (or pushing a signing bonus to year two or later) if the deal is two years or longer.
Fenway Sports Group, which owns the Penguins, views Crosby as the franchise’s most indispensable asset on and off the ice. Not only does Crosby remain the team’s best player, scoring 42 goals and 94 points while playing in every regular-season game this season, but he attracts increased revenue from national and local sponsorships — including for Sportsnet Pittsburgh, a regional sports network FSG launched this past August.
Negotiations between Dubas and Brisson will focus on particulars — not whether Crosby will re-sign with the Penguins, the sources said.
Crosby has repeatedly said his wish is to retire with the Penguins.
“Yeah, I’ve said that forever,” Crosby told The Athletic in February.
More of what we’re hearing hearing about the Penguins’ offseason plans:
• The Penguins are optimistic Marcus Pettersson will sign a long-term contract this summer, a team source and a source close to Pettersson said.
ettersson, 27, has a season remaining on his current contract. He counts $4,025,175, against the cap — a cost the Penguins project will increase by at least $1 million annually on a new deal, the team source said.
• Bryan Rust was told before the NHL trade deadline in March that he will be part of the Penguins going into next season, a league source said.
Multiple teams inquired with Dubas about Rust’s availability before the deadline, but Dubas opted against trading Rust because he was set to move Jake Guentzel.
Rust has one more season with a no-movement clause.
• Guentzel did not leave the Penguins on the best of terms. He was particularly agitated by a perceived lack of forthright communication from Dubas, a source close to Guentzel said.
However, Guentzel would not deny Dubas an opportunity to pitch him on a potential return to Pittsburgh if Guentzel tests free agency in July. Guentzel’s fondness for the Penguins supersedes any ill feelings toward Dubas, said a team source and a source close to Guentzel.
Still, Guentzel reuniting with the Penguins was described by one source as “a long shot” because “he’s loving it in Carolina, and (the Hurricanes) feel the same.”
• The Penguins are operating as though goaltender Alex Nedeljkovic will have better offers in free agency than they can afford in an attempt to retain his services, a team source and a source close to Nedeljkovic said.
Dubas hinted last Friday the Penguins are comfortable going into next season with Tristan Jarry and Joel Blomqvist as their goaltending tandem.
• Dubas engaged with multiple teams about forward Reilly Smith going into the trade deadline, but he found no takers because Smith wasn’t on an expiring contract. That will change once the new league year starts, and Dubas expects a more favorable market for Smith, a team source and a source close to Smith said.
Sidney Crosby wants to stay. The Pittsburgh Penguins want to keep him.
Done deal, right?
Not quite. Not yet, anyway.
There have yet to be formal negotiations between Penguins president of hockey operations/general manager Kyle Dubas and CAA Hockey’s Pat Brisson on Crosby’s next contract, multiple team and league sources said. The sources were granted anonymity so they could speak freely about the process.
Crosby is set to enter the final season of a 12-year, $104.4 million contract he signed on June 28, 2012.
The NHL’s collective bargaining agreement permits players entering the final season of a contract to sign an extension at the start of the new league year. That date is July 1.
Both parties expect a new deal with Crosby will be reached by or not long after that date, the sources said, with contract length and salary cap hit as the major elements still to be worked out.
Crosby, 36, has not decided how long he wants to keep playing. However, his next deal will probably be for multiple seasons.
The Penguins would prefer Crosby to sign a contract that would take him to his eventual retirement, but they are prepared for a short-term deal, team sources said.
Dubas and Brisson have yet to broach the parameters of any new contract, including Crosby’s salary cap hit.
Crosby has counted $8.7 million against the cap on his past two contracts, the previous being a five-year, $43.5 million deal signed on July 7, 2007. He had a $3.7 million cap hit on his entry-level contract.
Last month, The Athletic reported a deal within the vicinity of three years at an average annual value of $10 million could work for Crosby. Sportsnet’s Elliotte Friedman wrote that he predicts two or three seasons at $10.5 million AAV.
Each of Crosby’s three contracts was signed before the NHL and its Players’ Association negotiated rules that prohibit contracts from extending beyond eight seasons for players re-signing with a team. Crosby’s current contract had a heavily front-loaded base salary, paying him $67.8 million over the first six seasons and only $3 million each of the final three seasons.
Without the luxury of significantly lengthening Crosby’s next contract, the Penguins could find themselves in the position of their longtime captain costing more against the cap than at any previous point, even though he would be in his late 30s when the deal kicks in.
However, with the cap projected to increase substantially for next season and beyond, the percentage of Crosby’s hit against the Penguins’ upper payroll threshold will likely be similar to his previous contracts.
The Penguins would prefer a longer contract with Crosby to ensure he will retire with the franchise and keep his cap hit at or below $8.7 million. His past receptiveness to both points, along with his openness to team-friendly terms, means it’s possible he’ll go that route again. But he’s never taken fewer than five seasons on previous new contracts.
A shorter term would provide Crosby flexibility as he mulls how long he intends to play. A shorter contract also would pressure management to avoid a full rebuild, which Dubas has said is not on the table.
Because of Crosby’s age, a new deal would be designated as a “35-plus contract,” so the Penguins would not benefit from a reduced salary cap hit from front-loading the contract (or pushing a signing bonus to year two or later) if the deal is two years or longer.
Fenway Sports Group, which owns the Penguins, views Crosby as the franchise’s most indispensable asset on and off the ice. Not only does Crosby remain the team’s best player, scoring 42 goals and 94 points while playing in every regular-season game this season, but he attracts increased revenue from national and local sponsorships — including for Sportsnet Pittsburgh, a regional sports network FSG launched this past August.
Negotiations between Dubas and Brisson will focus on particulars — not whether Crosby will re-sign with the Penguins, the sources said.
Crosby has repeatedly said his wish is to retire with the Penguins.
“Yeah, I’ve said that forever,” Crosby told The Athletic in February.
More of what we’re hearing hearing about the Penguins’ offseason plans:
• The Penguins are optimistic Marcus Pettersson will sign a long-term contract this summer, a team source and a source close to Pettersson said.
ettersson, 27, has a season remaining on his current contract. He counts $4,025,175, against the cap — a cost the Penguins project will increase by at least $1 million annually on a new deal, the team source said.
• Bryan Rust was told before the NHL trade deadline in March that he will be part of the Penguins going into next season, a league source said.
Multiple teams inquired with Dubas about Rust’s availability before the deadline, but Dubas opted against trading Rust because he was set to move Jake Guentzel.
Rust has one more season with a no-movement clause.
• Guentzel did not leave the Penguins on the best of terms. He was particularly agitated by a perceived lack of forthright communication from Dubas, a source close to Guentzel said.
However, Guentzel would not deny Dubas an opportunity to pitch him on a potential return to Pittsburgh if Guentzel tests free agency in July. Guentzel’s fondness for the Penguins supersedes any ill feelings toward Dubas, said a team source and a source close to Guentzel.
Still, Guentzel reuniting with the Penguins was described by one source as “a long shot” because “he’s loving it in Carolina, and (the Hurricanes) feel the same.”
• The Penguins are operating as though goaltender Alex Nedeljkovic will have better offers in free agency than they can afford in an attempt to retain his services, a team source and a source close to Nedeljkovic said.
Dubas hinted last Friday the Penguins are comfortable going into next season with Tristan Jarry and Joel Blomqvist as their goaltending tandem.
• Dubas engaged with multiple teams about forward Reilly Smith going into the trade deadline, but he found no takers because Smith wasn’t on an expiring contract. That will change once the new league year starts, and Dubas expects a more favorable market for Smith, a team source and a source close to Smith said.
HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
MrBrightside
Registered User
Not sure that Carolina can pull off keeping him given their other contract situations but he seems 100x more likely to be there than here next year. Most likely scenario is somewhere else like Detroit or Buffalo or Utah, but the ship here really seems to have sailed. And really, that's fine.
ThosePuckingPenguins
Registered User
Didn’t Jake not want to negotiate during the season? Not to defend Dubas but he also stated multiple times throughout the season that if the team didn’t play better, he’d have to consider selling.
I don’t know, I’m over the whole ‘woe is me’ thing from Jake and his party that started after our game against them last month. He didn’t want to negotiate during the season, Dubas didn’t want to commit potentially eight years to another 30+ year old player, it’s fine.
The Great Mighty Poo
Thank You 59.
Rob Rossi can go f*** himself for all I care.
BusinessGoose
Registered User
Rust stapled
Jake is naive
Gonna lose ned
Sid f***ed on money
Smith playing so bad he's stuck here
And petts signed until 33
I'm excited for the future
Jake is naive
Gonna lose ned
Sid f***ed on money
Smith playing so bad he's stuck here
And petts signed until 33
I'm excited for the future
SomeDude
Registered User
There’s no draft thread yet but I just want to say there’s a kid named Tanner Adams eligible this year. I can only assume he is a Tanner Glass / Craig Adams hybrid cooked up in a lab for us to take with our first pick. The final boss of useless bottom 6ers.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Dubas had multiple teams interested in Rust and Smith, but couldn’t figure it out.
That’s the difference between this team and LA / NYR.
That’s the difference between this team and LA / NYR.
Dubas will move Smith. His one-year contract is very attractive. Next Graves can play better when the coaches put in place a better system for the D. Plus having a younger bigger physical RD helps the bottom pairing. Dubas has approx 17 million after moving Smith for a pick. Hoping for a second. Now Petts at 6 million is to me not the issue. It is term that is a concern for me. Pens have a number of cheaper young players in Poulin, Ponomarev, eventually Yagar and Pickering and maybe one of the promisng LW's as well. Pens need lottery luck to get into top 10 but I think I take that and draft a RD or the center from Finland who looks to be there. I do think Karlsson and say Rust without a NMC will be moved next year for picks and prospects as the pivot from older declining players and get younger bigger faster and deeper.
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