Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Zbynek]

Hell yes to Stephenson. But rather just keep Rakell and Eller and force Sully's hand to actually play Puusti in a top-9 role.

Stephenson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DOC-Eller-Puusti

Ship off as many of the other forwards as possible. If we can ship out Acciari and Smith at the least that's a win in my book. Nieto probably can't be moved, whatever. He can be Sully's trademark veteran PKer.

 

[MrBrightside]

People really overestimate how "good" you have to be to win in the playoffs. Teams that squeak in go on runs all the time - 2017 Senators and Predators, 2010 Flyers, Bubble Canadiens and Islanders, 2019 Blues - you don't have to be the 2008 Red Wings to do well in the playoffs and the idea that if we can only be good we should burn everything to the ground until we can be great is just absurd.

 

[Darren McCord]

To the shock of no one. That's fine though, I think it's best if both parties go there separate ways. No hard feelings. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Dubas after the TDL talked about value being low and that once the new caproll takes over, it would open up more possibilities. I imagine this will be a "best for both parties" move. Can't see him coming back.

The Jazz have a good following as does the MLS team. I think they got like 6000 deposits for season tickets right away so I wouldn't assume a poor fanbase. I don't think the owner would have moved them there if he didn';t think people wouldn't come and watch.

B. Indeed but the same can be said about Denver and Winnipeg and even Calgary and Edmonton.

C. So?

D. True. But who knows how well they will or will not like it. I imagine some will still be bitter about the Mullet arena and that bitterness will transfer over to SLC but there's not much they can do to control it.

I mean that's all fine but again, the original comment was about not feeling bad about trying scavenging players. There is no reason to feel bad. The fans of SLC don't deserve anything special. The players deserve the most out of all of this mess. If they want to leave they should

 

[MeinerEiner]

Because this team is still trying to win and Henrique is a good player?

I don´t think running a center core of Crosby (37), Malkin (38), Henrique (34) and Eller (35) is a good idea. Also Henrique will command at least 3 years on his new contract and this has Jeff Carter written all over it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hell yes to Stephenson. But rather just keep Rakell and Eller and force Sully's hand to actually play Puusti in a top-9 role.

Stephenson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DOC-Eller-Puusti

Ship off as many of the other forwards as possible. If we can ship out Acciari and Smith at the least that's a win in my book. Nieto probably can't be moved, whatever. He can be Sully's trademark veteran PKer.

I'd personally try to get a better 3C than Eller for this lineup, but yeah this looks pretty damn solid to me.

Upgrade from Eller to Wennberg and make Eller the 4C and I like it even more.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

People really overestimate how "good" you have to be to win in the playoffs. Teams that squeak in go on runs all the time - 2017 Senators and Predators, 2010 Flyers, Bubble Canadiens and Islanders, 2019 Blues - you don't have to be the 2008 Red Wings to do well in the playoffs and the idea that if we can only be good we should burn everything to the ground until we can be great is just absurd.

Completely agree

but why do you have to sign a bunch of blocky, not flexible, hard to move contracts to do so? Especially when many of those runs came down to hot goaltending.

I just think if they’re gonna try to compete they should make more moves like EK. Not more Graves, Acciari, Eller (who I liked this year) type of players.

If this was the farm system of a few years ago I’d get having to sign guys to ice a competent roster but they’ve accumulated enough prospect depth to fill out a lineup without having to spend money and term on middle tier depth players.

 

[MrBrightside]

Completely agree

but why do you have to sign a bunch of blocky, not flexible, hard to move contracts to do so? Especially when many of those runs came down to hot goaltending.

I just think they should spend on guys like EK. Not more Graves, Acciari, Eller (who I liked this year) type of players.

If this was the farm system of a few years ago I’d get having to sign guys to ice a competent roster but they’ve accumulated enough prospect depth to fill out a lineup without having to spend money and term on middle tier depth players.

Not saying you do. I was just responding to the notion that the lineups being posted weren't considered great so therefore we shouldn't bother trying and just blow it up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Completely agree

but why do you have to sign a bunch of blocky, not flexible, hard to move contracts to do so? Especially when many of those runs came down to hot goaltending.

I just think they should spend on guys like EK. Not more Graves, Acciari, Eller (who I liked this year) type of players.

If this was the farm system of a few years ago I’d get having to sign guys to ice a competent roster but they’ve accumulated enough prospect depth to fill out a lineup without having to spend money and term on middle tier depth players.

Do we really care if those contracts are blocky and hard to move? I don't want them hemorrhaging futures assets, especially because I think they need way more youth to even have a chance at contending again with Crosby, but giving out bloated long-term deals really isn't all that big of a concern for me at this point.

If Crosby and Malkin were 27 and you were risking being saddled with an awful deal for their age 27-34 years, then yeah I would absolutely not do that. But do we really care if the Penguins have a shitty Chandler Stephenson contract in 4 years after Crosby retires?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Not saying you do. I was just responding to the notion that the lineups being posted weren't considered great so therefore we shouldn't bother trying and just blow it up.

yeah that was me that said I’d rather rebuild than hand the Bertuzzis of the world $30M+ deals.

If we want to compete that’s ok. I just don’t agree with adding more depth.If we want to compete we need difference makers. Fill out depth with youth.

So I’m saying if a difference maker fails to materialize July 1, let’s be patient and play youth and make savvy moves instead of immediately blowing our wad and all available cap/roster space on guys like Ryan Graves.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If Crosby and Malkin were 27 and you were risking being saddled with an awful deal for their age 27-34 years, then yeah I would absolutely not do that. But do we really care if the Penguins have a shitty Chandler Stephenson contract in 4 years after Crosby retires?

My problem is if you’re not gonna rebuild but you’re gonna sign shitty deals you immediately close shut the already slim possibility of competing and you are kinda entering where post Lidstrom Detroit was.

I don’t mind Stephenson. He’s good enough where I don’t hate the idea. I’m overall saying let’s wait for opportunities like signing Reinhart to a stupid deal or trade for the disgruntled stud or whatever.

If those opportunities aren’t there July 1 or by the start of the season I don’t want them to panic. Holes on the roster = we can figure out if these prospects are worth a shit. I don’t really think Poulin or Puus in the top 6 vs a Bertuzzi type will affect the win/loss column in a material way and its not like there’s a ton of risk if it does— since they have the 2025 pick if everything goes wrong.

 

[Empoleon8771]

My problem is if you’re not gonna rebuild but you’re gonna sign shitty deals you immediately close shut the already slim possibility of competing and you are kinda entering where post Lidstrom Detroit was.

I don’t mind Stephenson. He’s good enough where I don’t hate the idea. I’m overall saying let’s wait for opportunities like signing Reinhart to a stupid deal or trade for the disgruntled stud or whatever.

If those opportunities aren’t there July 1 or by the start of the season I don’t want them to panic. Holes on the roster = we can figure out if these prospects are worth a shit.

I don't follow the logic here. If they tear the team down and rebuild right now, they are objectively shutting the window on competing with Crosby. If they sign big deals that will look shitty in a few years, they're really not going to be in any different of a position than if they'd nuke the team right now. A rebuild isn't going to be quick, nuking the team now just starts the 7+ year rebuild now rather than in 3 years.

Detroit's rebuild isn't really stagnating due to what they did trying to compete at the tail end of the Datsyuk/Zetteberg/Lidstrom window. It's stagnating because they've done a really shitty job with the rebuild. Their draft history from 2015 onward is terrible, especially for the amount of picks they have had.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I think it's more that they like Ponomarev, Koivunen, and even Poulin more, and that they'd make room for them on the roster with the idea of filling in elsewhere.

For example, since they speak highly of Ponomarev, maybe they slot him in at 3C instead of going for Wennberg and then spend Wennberg money on a 3RW.

Hope he has a good camp and can be that 3/4 C of some sort for us. Ponomarev that is

Stephenson- Sid- Rust
Bunting- Malkin- DeBrusk
DOC- Eller- Rakell
Poulin- Ponomarev- Acciari
Re-sign Ned, bring up Bloom. Dump Jarry for extra cap. Hell dump Acciari if you must.

I have a feeling Debrusk won't be here but yes to Stephenson. I definitely want to add a top 6 player that can play wing or center for us. Especially if it can work with Malkin.

I know he had a bad season and will be overpaid but id really like to take a closer look at Lindholm.

I’m still LOLing so hard at how beyond stupid Dubas was at this trade deadline… what a completely botched opportunity to move out players for assets and help and yet he Nieves the only asset that could help in the sort term & long term here. AND yet the entire amazing coaching staff completely intact as well. Yikes,
Just.
f***ing.
YIKES!

Seeing what some teams were paying for rentals etc. I think Dubas did okay. I was disappointed but also seeing the prices makes it a wash for me.

My problem is if you’re not gonna rebuild but you’re gonna sign shitty deals you immediately close shut the already slim possibility of competing and you are kinda entering where post Lidstrom Detroit was.

I don’t mind Stephenson. He’s good enough where I don’t hate the idea. I’m overall saying let’s wait for opportunities like signing Reinhart to a stupid deal or trade for the disgruntled stud or whatever.

If those opportunities aren’t there July 1 or by the start of the season I don’t want them to panic. Holes on the roster = we can figure out if these prospects are worth a shit. I don’t really think Poulin or Puus in the top 6 vs a Bertuzzi type will affect the win/loss column in a material way and its not like there’s a ton of risk if it does— since they have the 2025 pick if everything goes wrong.

At the end of the day there is a salary floor.
If we sign a couple bad ufa contracts and they fill up the salary while we suck it is what it is.

The key is to avoid signing additional deals after these next couple ufas for more ufa long term deals.

See the overpayments Chicago is making so they have a roster that is cap compliant.

My two cents anyways.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don't follow the logic here. If they tear the team down and rebuild right now, they are objectively shutting the window on competing with Crosby.

Rebuild = slams window shut. Team could be real good again in 4-5 years but maybe not.

Try to compete but sign bad contracts = also slams window shut. Can’t properly rebuild. Probably looking at 4-5 years of meh followed by 4-5 years of rebuilding before they can compete.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to go for it but I want them to go after big fish.

Detroits drafting sucked but their failure was also driven by being in purgatory and having no top 5 picks.

 

[chethejet]

Sid isn't here for a rebuild. Secondly yes getting the type of player that is both productive and gritty certainly takes Sullivan out of his nonphysical stance. Dubas has a coach who missed the playoffs and performed poorly for almost 2 months. Yep add Stephenson. Trinen, that is not costly, and you can bring in a better 3rd line RW as well. Both are young enough to be contributors after the core here. Plus, Sullivan will be on some play better and play what wins vs what you want. Dubas, it is in his best interests to bring in his type of player at this point. Watching the playoffs, it is clear there is physical play that the Pens simply can't come close to. .

 

[AuroraBorealis]

People really overestimate how "good" you have to be to win in the playoffs. Teams that squeak in go on runs all the time - 2017 Senators and Predators, 2010 Flyers, Bubble Canadiens and Islanders, 2019 Blues - you don't have to be the 2008 Red Wings to do well in the playoffs and the idea that if we can only be good we should burn everything to the ground until we can be great is just absurd.

Just because Cinderella runs happen doesn't mean it's good math to put your eggs in that basket, indefinitely. It's smarter to build a proper foundation to have a window of years where you're expected to win rounds and go deep. That's how you win Cups and have somewhat sustained excellence. You don't just wait for perfect storms for decades, like Minnesota is doing.

The goal is to win championships, not be "good" in the playoffs. The Pens aren't gonna win 4 rounds against strong teams with the path they've chosen.
A re-tool worked for the Rangers because they had a very strong starting point at the time they pulled that trigger. They had quality assets to trade.
The Pens don't. They're old and have next to nothing to swap out for quality. They won't be able to build the foundation needed to win. This isn't gonna work next season or in many seasons following that. It's an unserious route.

 

[MrBrightside]

Just because Cinderella runs happen doesn't mean it's good math to put your eggs in that basket, indefinitely. It's smarter to build a proper foundation to have a window of years where you're expected to win rounds and go deep. That's how you win Cups and have somewhat sustained excellence. You don't just wait for perfect storms for decades, like Minnesota is doing.

The goal is to win championships, not be "good" in the playoffs. The Pens aren't gonna win 4 rounds against strong teams with the path they've chosen.
A re-tool worked for the Rangers because they had a very strong starting point at the time they pulled that trigger. They had quality assets to trade.
The Pens don't. They're old and have next to nothing to swap out for quality. They won't be able to build the foundation needed to win. This isn't gonna work next season or in many seasons following that. It's an unserious route.

I literally cited to 6 or 7 recent examples where it happened. The playoffs are a crapshoot and even the best teams are 60-40 or 65-35 favorites in each round. If we are waiting until we have Russian superstars decide they want to come to Pittsburgh or have Adam Fox want to play here to try, that's a plan doomed for failure also. Yes, I'd rather have the 2008 Penguins than the 2024 Penguins, but letting perfect be the enemy of good leads to 10+ years of being Detroit or Buffalo or Columbus or Arizona or Chicago far more often than it leads to being dominant. Everything is relative and they certainly have made mistakes and shouldn't overpay for random 35 year olds, but the NHL '94 GM wannabes who think they can just make a few trades and be awesome is unserious as well.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

rather have the 2008 Penguins than the 2024 Penguins, but letting perfect be the enemy of good leads to 10+ years of being Detroit or Buffalo or Columbus or Arizona or Chicago

Chicago won 3 cups with the posters method and only recently kicked off a rebuild.

Since the Pens won their first cup; the only teams that haven’t done so with a core built via a rebuild are STL, VGK and kinda LA.

You can definitely f*** it up and become the teams you mentioned (besides the Hawks) but it’s 1000% the best way to try to win a Cup.

If we want to hold out hope for a Cinderella run while 87 and 71 wear the uniform that’s ok but in no way can that be the logic long term.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've seen so many supposed powerhouses crumble in the first round and so many "Cinderella Runs" from teams that "never should have made it" over the years that it still surprises me sometimes that Penguins fans don't seem to always grasp the importance of simply making the dance and seeing what happens. It's like ya'll WANT to be losers sitting on the outside looking in or something.

Way better to at least barely make the cut and roll the dice than miss the whole shebang by like 1-3 points and collect your shit-ass first rounder that will never do squat. Which is what the case will be so long as Sid Crosby is here.

It's not like it has to be Cup or bust. I think we'd all be happy with a little two or even three series run. Er... well... most of us would be happy.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I literally cited to 6 or 7 recent examples where it happened. The playoffs are a crapshoot and even the best teams are 60-40 or 65-35 favorites in each round. If we are waiting until we have Russian superstars decide they want to come to Pittsburgh or have Adam Fox want to play here to try, that's a plan doomed for failure also. Yes, I'd rather have the 2008 Penguins than the 2024 Penguins, but letting perfect be the enemy of good leads to 10+ years of being Detroit or Buffalo or Columbus or Arizona or Chicago far more often than it leads to being dominant. Everything is relative and they certainly have made mistakes and shouldn't overpay for random 35 year olds, but the NHL '94 GM wannabes who think they can just make a few trades and be awesome is unserious as well.

Those are not examples comparable to the Pens situation. Look deeper than that.
For one thing, Sullivan is still gonna be the coach. So that negates any chance right there. He's getting worse every year. The players go in sleep mode often throughout the year under his guidance.

What I'm talking about is a lot more than a few trades. They need to stop handing out long-term big $ deals, lose for a good block of years, accumulating 1sts, 2nds and 3rds.
Like, don't extend Pettersson. Trade him this summer. Don't sign Guentzel (if he wants to return) and don't extend Crosby. That won't accomplish anything.
They need to weaponize all available cap space by taking on bad contracts in exchange for more picks, not spend 10.5M on Sid in his twilight years for sentiment.
They need to acquire picks for draft years that will have those players blossom at the right time, when the Pens are relevant again. And that is very far away.

And this process needs to start happening right away, before they squander more years, accomplishing nothing like the last 2. It sucks, but it's the fastest route to getting back to where they want to be.

 

[MrBrightside]

Chicago won 3 cups with the posters method and only recently kicked off a rebuild.

Since the Pens won their first cup; the only teams that haven’t done so with a core built via a rebuild are STL, VGK and kinda LA.

You can definitely f*** it up and become the teams you mentioned (besides the Hawks) but it’s 1000% the best way to try to win a Cup.

If we want to hold out hope for a Cinderella run while 87 and 71 wear the uniform that’s ok but in no way can that be the logic long term.

We've won 2 Cups since Chicago last won a playoff series, let alone been relevant. Yes, our core stayed at a high lever longer than theirs did, but they've been in the wilderness for almost a decade and other than Bedard they are nowhere.

And really, other than 2 of the last 4 Cup winners, it never happens isn't the argument you think it is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rebuild = slams window shut. Team could be real good again in 4-5 years but maybe not.

Try to compete but sign bad contracts = also slams window shut. Can’t properly rebuild. Probably looking at 4-5 years of meh followed by 4-5 years of rebuilding before they can compete.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to go for it but I want them to go after big fish.

Detroits drafting sucked but their failure was also driven by being in purgatory and having no top 5 picks.

I think you can argue that they're already down this path and made that decision with re-signing Malkin and Letang in 2022.

Just my opinion, but I don't see a point in rushing to start a rebuild when Crosby is still here. I don't think the rebuild would be any faster now than if they waited 3 years to do it, so at that point, why not try to do what you can to be at least a playoff team for the last few years of Crosby? Don't do anything that would hurt the future like trading a bunch of 1sts obviously, but I don't think signing UFAs to bad deals is really all that high risk for the future rebuild.

I know people mock both Hextall and Dubas for the "build for the future but compete now", but that is exactly what I think they should be doing. Continuously be trying to sell off older assets for younger assets, fill spots in UFA and rebuild the prospect pool while also trying to be a playoff team.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I've seen so many supposed powerhouses crumble in the first round and so many "Cinderella Runs" from teams that "never should have made it" over the years that it still surprises me sometimes that Penguins fans don't seem to always grasp the importance of simply making the dance and seeing what happens. It's like ya'll WANT to be losers sitting on the outside looking in or something.

Way better to at least barely make the cut and roll the dice than miss the whole shebang by like 1-3 points and collect your shit-ass first rounder that will never do squat. Which is what the case will be so long as Sid Crosby is here.

It's not like it has to be Cup or bust. I think we'd all be happy with a little two or even three series run. Er... well... most of us would be happy.

Serious attempt at Cup, or it's a bust, yes. If all you're doing is accepting bubble purgatory and winning the occasional round, you've failed as an organization.
I don't know why people keep referring to scorched earth as only getting one 1st rounder a year. That's not what it is. A serious rebuild entails many assets and the combined efforts of all of them.
San Jose for example is getting two 1sts, two 2nds and a 3rd this draft. They have a ton of cap space available next year to take on bad contracts in exchange for more picks.

This is exactly what the Pens should be doing, instead of w/e the f*** these last 2 years have been, and w/e the f*** next year is gonna be. It's time wasting.

 

[Gurglesons]

We've won 2 Cups since Chicago last won a playoff series, let alone been relevant. Yes, our core stayed at a high lever longer than theirs did, but they've been in the wilderness for almost a decade and other than Bedard they are nowhere.

And really, other than 2 of the last 4 Cup winners, it never happens isn't the argument you think it is.

Yeah, people are so silly about how easy it is to rebuild.

The only team that has done it "successfully" recently is the Edmonton Oilers and they've made one WCF.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If the Penguins are "wasting time" with keeping with their core and trying to be a playoff team, then that means like half of the league is "wasting time" with keeping their core and trying to be a playoff team.

I have never understood why people desired to start the rebuild sooner than it needs to happen. Starting a rebuild today isn't going to magically make the rebuild happen faster than if you'd start it in 3 years after Crosby retires instead. What's the point of tanking the last few years with Crosby and Malkin just so the rebuild ends in 2029 instead of 2032?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I think you can argue that they're already down this path and made that decision with re-signing Malkin and Letang in 2022.

Just my opinion, but I don't see a point in rushing to start a rebuild when Crosby is still here. I don't think the rebuild would be any faster now than if they waited 3 years to do it, so at that point, why not try to do what you can to be at least a playoff team for the last few years of Crosby? Don't do anything that would hurt the future like trading a bunch of 1sts obviously, but I don't think signing UFAs to bad deals is really all that high risk for the future rebuild.

I know people mock both Hextall and Dubas for the "build for the future but compete now", but that is exactly what I think they should be doing. Continuously be trying to sell off older assets for younger assets, fill spots in UFA and rebuild the prospect pool while also trying to be a playoff team.

I have no problem not rebuilding.

Just don’t want them to slap a bunch of randos into the roster and think it does anything. They need to try to add real difference makers IMO.