Post-Game Talk: Penguins 6 - Devils 3: Good ol' fashion sticktoitiveness

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The worst part is, even if we were to fire him (I don’t think we will), we’ll never get another year where our stars are this healthy. I can’t imagine Sid ever having a season as good as this again.

This is what makes this so unbelievably infuriating. Dude is still one of the better players in the game (and Malkin isn't nearly as cooked as some want to make out) but they cannot afford "assessment" years like this one has evidently been... again. Sitting around with thumbs jammed squarely up their asses while Crosby and Malkin have been relatively healthy and productive for two straight seasons is a huge disservice to the fans who support this team not to mention pretty disrespectful to the guys that have won everything for them for going on 20 years.

It utterly blows my mind that they just let this season slip on by the cheeks like a giant wet fart while barely lifting a finger. Deciding that Mike Sullivan... an NHL head coach... is some sacred institution within this franchise is easily one of the dumbest, most wrong-headed things I've seen this team do since I started watching in the early 90s.

 

[MrBrightside]

I said they were better right now, not “so much better”…I know it sounds better to exaggerate these comments..the Caps have incorporated more youth, and more skilled youth, because they kept their first round picks, and they fired their coach…so two marks better than the Pens…guess we’ll find out tomorrow whether they’re better right now or not…

Imagine that the guy who is a running meme on this board for shitting all over everything accuses someone else of exaggerating.

The Pens went for it when their Cup window was open. I will never criticize that. You can argue whether the trades were good or bad but no one was sitting there in 2018 and 2019 arguing they should sit tight just so they’d have late first round picks be 2nd and 3rd liners in 5 years. The Caps are a total fraud - the fact that they have 2 or 3 younger players playing middle 6 roles is whatever - really no different than the roles DOC and Puustinen have had here.

 

[IcedCapp]

Flyers and Caps are both garbage and their being ahead of the Pens is a testament to our failures, not their successes

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Even if the Capitals and Flyers were legitimately in a better spot than the Penguins... I'm not gonna sit here and intentionally bring it up. f*** those guys. The Capitals in particular can burn in hell. Thanks a pantload for Todd Reirden, fellas. What a gem.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This is what makes this so unbelievably infuriating. Dude is still one of the better players in the game (and Malkin isn't nearly as cooked as some want to make out) but they cannot afford "assessment" years like this one has evidently been... again. Sitting around with thumbs jammed squarely up their asses while Crosby and Malkin have been relatively healthy and productive for two straight seasons is a huge disservice to the fans who support this team not to mention pretty disrespectful to the guys that have won everything for them for going on 20 years.

It utterly blows my mind that they just let this season slip on by the cheeks like a giant wet fart while barely lifting a finger. Deciding that Mike Sullivan... an NHL head coach... is some sacred institution within this franchise is easily one of the dumbest, most wrong-headed things I've seen this team do since I started watching in the early 90s.

Don't worry. When Crosby and Malkin are 42 and 43, respectively, and producing like 30 point players, THEN the organization will finally finish their evaluations and realize Sullivan needs to be replaced.

Then, of course, the team will suck because it's being lead by two 40 year olds and the local media will use that as proof that they shouldn't have fired Sullivan.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Don't worry. When Crosby and Malkin are 42 and 43, respectively, and producing like 30 point players, THEN the organization will finally finish their evaluations and realize Sullivan needs to be replaced.

Then, of course, the team will suck because it's being lead by two 40 year olds and the local media will use that as proof that they shouldn't have fired Sullivan.

This reminds me of the people who have been saying Malkin sucks for like 15 years and he finally starts falling off at the tender age of 38 and they are all like "AH HA I TOLD YA!"

 

[Ryder71]

Don't worry. When Crosby and Malkin are 42 and 43, respectively, and producing like 30 point players, THEN the organization will finally finish their evaluations and realize Sullivan needs to be replaced.

Then, of course, the team will suck because it's being lead by two 40 year olds and the local media will use that as proof that they shouldn't have fired Sullivan.

Pretty sure neither Geno nor Sid will be playing then, come now. lol

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This reminds me of the people who have been saying Malkin sucks for like 15 years and he finally starts falling off at the tender age of 38 and they are all like "AH HA I TOLD YA!"

The funny thing is he's going to hit near 65 points despite playing with shitty wingers and on a horrendous PP. Sid's probably flirting with 100 points this year with a functional PP and Geno's probably flirting with 80 points with a functional PP and wingers who produce more than 35 points.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The people who want to rush into sucking I will never understand...talk about letting perfect be the enemy of good.

You gotta be kidding me. How hard is to understand?
Do you want the Pens to win a Cup again in your lifetime? If the answer is yes, then they have to rebuild. They're not gonna do it through re-tooling or status quo.
So obviously the sooner they commit to losing, the sooner they can start building towards that future. The longer they delay by f***ing around like they are now, the more years are lost to the nether.

It's your mindset - the one wanting the Pens to be like the Wild, in purgatory for decades - that is incomprehensible.

 

[MrBrightside]

You gotta be kidding me. How hard is to understand?
Do you want the Pens to win a Cup again in your lifetime? If the answer is yes, then they have to rebuild. They're not gonna do it through re-tooling or status quo.
So obviously the sooner they commit to losing, the sooner they can start building towards that future. The longer they delay by f***ing around like they are now, the more years are lost to the nether.

It's your mindset - the one wanting the Pens to be like the Wild, in purgatory for decades - that is incomprehensible.

Then rebuild. They are going to have to SJ a #1 pick at some point and the fact that you would rather see this team suck and lose solely so you can give up the #1 pick in 2025 instead of 2024 is hilarious. I'm fine with rebuilding, but guess what, the trade deadline is gone. They can't do anything toward rebuilding right now and the idea that the future is going to be dramatically different because they miss the playoffs this year rather than make the playoffs is asinine. They aren't going to tear it down as long as Crosby is here, and you can shout into the void all you want and that's not changing. Sorry it's so damn disappointing that they may have some interesting games the next two weeks - you must really enjoy being a Pirates fan with this mentality.

 

[Gurglesons]

You gotta be kidding me. How hard is to understand?
Do you want the Pens to win a Cup again in your lifetime? If the answer is yes, then they have to rebuild. They're not gonna do it through re-tooling or status quo.
So obviously the sooner they commit to losing, the sooner they can start building towards that future. The longer they delay by f***ing around like they are now, the more years are lost to the nether.

It's your mindset - the one wanting the Pens to be like the Wild, in purgatory for decades - that is incomprehensible.

Rather see Sid and Malkin play competitive games then blow up the team.

 

[Andy99]

Imagine that the guy who is a running meme on this board for shitting all over everything accuses someone else of exaggerating.

The Pens went for it when their Cup window was open. I will never criticize that. You can argue whether the trades were good or bad but no one was sitting there in 2018 and 2019 arguing they should sit tight just so they’d have late first round picks be 2nd and 3rd liners in 5 years. The Caps are a total fraud - the fact that they have 2 or 3 younger players playing middle 6 roles is whatever - really no different than the roles DOC and Puustinen have had here.

Except the Caps first rounders are better than our young players…also started trading for quality young players like Sandin and Strome…they’re ahead on the retool…think they did a better job managing an aging roster…and no, I was not super thrilled to trade a first back for Kapanen or for Brassard lol

 

[MrBrightside]

Except the Caps first rounders are better than our young players…also started trading for quality young players like Sandin and Strome…they’re ahead on the retool…think they did a better job managing an aging roster…and no, I was not super thrilled to trade a first back for Kapanen or for Brassard lol

They were bad trades, no one is arguing otherwise (although the Brassard trade was well received at the time it was made, so that's revisionist history). Much as the Kessel trade and a lot of others (Daley, Hagelin, Marino, Schultz, Bonino, etc.) were good ones - no GM bats 1.000 and the philosophy of trying to win while the window was open was sound.

Strome was a free agent, not a trade, and yes, they made a nice trade for Sandin. Good for them. Every team has made a few nice deals. Your continual admiration for a team who has 3 guys with more than 35 points, two of whom are 38 and 34, as a model of youth is amusing.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Then rebuild. They are going to have to SJ a #1 pick at some point and the fact that you would rather see this team suck and lose solely so you can give up the #1 pick in 2025 instead of 2024 is hilarious. I'm fine with rebuilding, but guess what, the trade deadline is gone. They can't do anything toward rebuilding right now and the idea that the future is going to be dramatically different because they miss the playoffs this year rather than make the playoffs is asinine. They aren't going to tear it down as long as Crosby is here, and you can shout into the void all you want and that's not changing. Sorry it's so damn disappointing that they may have some interesting games the next two weeks - you must really enjoy being a Pirates fan with this mentality.

They can do something. You're allowed to make trades post-deadline. You can't just use your returns in the playoffs is all.
You're putting way too much emphasis on 1st rounders. It's about the collective strength of the prospect pool. You have to load up on picks and increase your chances of hitting.
Rust, Letang, Guentzel, Murray, Hornqvist etc... were not 1st rounders. The Pens have gotten more out of their 2nd and 3rd rounders than 1st rounders since Jordan Staal.

I understand that they're not gonna tear it down. I get it. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with this course of action.
And I am happy with the players' attitudes during this stretch. They are supposed to compete. That is their job.
But management and ownership are supposed to build winners. It's them and their attitude I'm disappointed in. They are willing to throw away years and years of the organization for short-term profits and to honor the core. They aren't prioritizing the long-term success of the organization. That is what sickens me.
The fact that Sullivan and Reirden still have jobs says it all. Something is wrong internally. The will to seek Cups has been corrupted.

 

[MrBrightside]

They can do something. You're allowed to make trades post-deadline. You can't just use your returns in the playoffs is all.
You're putting way too much emphasis on 1st rounders. It's about the collective strength of the prospect pool. You have to load up on picks and increase your chances of hitting.
Rust, Letang, Guentzel, Murray, Hornqvist etc... were not 1st rounders. The Pens have gotten more out of their 2nd and 3rd rounders than 1st rounders since Jordan Staal.

I understand that they're not gonna tear it down. I get it. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with this course of action.
And I am happy with the players' attitudes during this stretch. They are supposed to compete. That is their job.
But management and ownership are supposed to build winners. It's them and their attitude I'm disappointed in. They are willing to throw away years and years of the organization for short-term profits and to honor the core. They aren't prioritizing the long-term success of the organization. That is what sickens me.
The fact that Sullivan and Reirden still have jobs says it all. Something is wrong internally. The will to seek Cups has been corrupted.

I absolutely would be in favor of cleaning house with the coaching staff. I wanted them to let Malkin walk - though in fairness I was glad they kept Letang and that's looking suspect.

I would also have been in favor of them doing a lot more than they did at the trade deadline. Get younger. Absolutely. My only point is that the trade deadline has come and gone. The team is what it is until the season ends, so rooting against them for a few slots in the draft order is nonsensical to me. If you want to advocate for a tear down or whatever over the offseason, while I don't think it's going to happen, I see the argument and support it to a large extent - but RIGHT NOW the team is what it is and I'd rather see them play important games and win rather than moving up 2 or 3 spots in the draft order.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Rather see Sid and Malkin play competitive games then blow up the team.

Yeah, because you've become a core 3 (or 2) fan, not a Pittsbugh Penguins fan like you used to be.
And I totally understand that. The organization has soured its standard as a whole for the fans. There's more incentive right now than ever to be that way.
But I still care more about the Penguins winning Cups again than I do the quality of Crosby, Letang and Malkin's final years. I want to see playoffs again where there's realistic hope for taking down giants best of 7 and going all the way. I miss that. And I also miss the attitude from the organization of being sharks in the pursuit of Cups. They've lost their way completely in that regard.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, because you've become a core 3 (or 2) fan, not a Pittsbugh Penguins fan like you used to be.
And I totally understand that. The organization has soured its standard as a whole for the fans. There's more incentive right now than ever to be that way.
But I still care more about the Penguins winning Cups again than I do the quality of Crosby, Letang and Malkin's final years. I want to see playoffs again where there's realistic hope for taking down giants best of 7 and going all the way. I miss that. And I also miss the attitude from the organization of being sharks in the pursuit of Cups. They've lost their way completely in that regard.

This resonates. However, I'd really prefer them to make the playoffs or at least get a pick that they are forced to give to SJS. If you want them to turn the page, you should be coveting that 2025 pick.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I absolutely would be in favor of cleaning house with the coaching staff. I wanted them to let Malkin walk - though in fairness I was glad they kept Letang and that's looking suspect.

I would also have been in favor of them doing a lot more than they did at the trade deadline. Get younger. Absolutely. My only point is that the trade deadline has come and gone. The team is what it is until the season ends, so rooting against them for a few slots in the draft order is nonsensical to me. If you want to advocate for a tear down or whatever over the offseason, while I don't think it's going to happen, I see the argument and support it to a large extent - but RIGHT NOW the team is what it is and I'd rather see them play important games and win rather than moving up 2 or 3 spots in the draft order.

I mean yeah, there's 7 games left. What they do or don't do at this point with those available points is gonna make little to no difference to the long-term outlook of the organization.
What I'm talking about is ownership and management's prevailing attitude from last summer til now.

To me it's very simple. Even if the next few years are an improper rebuild due to blocked contract situations, you're at least gaining SOMETHING with the prospects you are able to acquire.
But choosing to re-tool now and push for 1st round exits or 9th place playoff misses will result in NOTHING.
So it's very clear what the smarter choice here is, even if it's not a textbook rebuild. At least this way entire years aren't thrown away entirely. Some progress will have been made.

This resonates. However, I'd really prefer them to make the playoffs or at least get a pick that they are forced to give to SJS. If you want them to turn the page, you should be coveting that 2025 pick.

I want 2027 and 2028 picks. Players who will be ready to make an impact at a time when the Pens are realistically making a playoff push again. Circa 2031 or 2032 perhaps, if we don't wait too long to pull the plug.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I want 2027 and 2028 picks. Players who will be ready to make an impact at a time when the Pens are realistically making a playoff push again. Circa 2031 or 2032 perhaps, if we don't wait too long to pull the plug.

Why wouldn't, say, the #4 Overall Pick in 2025 be able to make an impact? Provided he doesn't suck/bust?

 

[Nakawick]

It's weird to me that Crosby has only hit 40 goals twice so far in his career, and both times he did it, he won the Rocket.

And yet he is closing in on 600 with 700 seemingly a real possibility for him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Why wouldn't, say, the #4 Overall Pick in 2025 be able to make an impact? Provided he doesn't suck/bust?

Because he's likely to be a difference maker in 2029 or so, when the team isn't in the playoffs. So you're burning ELC years there when he can't help you when it matters, like we had with Guentzel and Rust. You need that great performance relative to cheap cap. Guentzel with 13 goals in the playoffs in 2017 at league minimum. That got us the Cup.
It's sorta like how Lafreniere is flourishing now, at age 22. It worked out for them because he's only making 2.35M now, but what if he popped off earlier on and was making 6M+ now? Then that might hurt their Cup chances.
Obviously cases vary and some guys can help earlier on, but that 4 years is a reasonable expectation.
That's especially the case if Sullivan stays long term, because he's very much against using youth early on like that. Expect a long waiting period before he trusts him, unless he's a defensive specialist/PK'er type.

 

[canadianguy77]

Because he's likely to be a difference maker in 2029 or so, when the team isn't in the playoffs. So you're burning ELC years there when he can't help you when it matters, like we had with Guentzel and Rust. You need that great performance relative to cheap cap. Guentzel with 13 goals in the playoffs in 2017 at league minimum. That got us the Cup.
It's sorta like how Lafreniere is flourishing now, at age 22. It worked out for them because he's only making 2.35M now, but what if he popped off earlier on and was making 6M+ now? Then that might hurt their Cup chances.
Obviously cases vary and some guys can help earlier on, but that 4 years is a reasonable expectation.
That's especially the case if Sullivan stays long term, because he's very much against using youth early on like that. Expect a long waiting period before he trusts him, unless he's a defensive specialist/PK'er type.

Wanting to keep salaries all neat and tidy and well planned for is admirable and something every team should strive towards but I don’t think anyone really does it. That stuff works in EAsports but not in real life.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Wanting to keep salaries all neat and tidy and well planned for is admirable and something every team should strive towards but I don’t think anyone really does it. That stuff works in EAsports but not in real life.

It would work in real life if they planned that far ahead, but they almost always look at the season right in front of them.
In this case it's a pretty noteworthy consideration, cuz you can have a huge disparity between their ELC AAV and post-ELC contract. Like we're talking upwards of a 5 mil difference, with many of these high picks. It can decide playoff rounds, or even a Cup, depending on how good the player is during the playoffs.