Post-Game Talk: Penguins 3|Kings 0|A Good Defensive game (gasp!)

[Sidney the Kidney]

I agree.


I wanted to see Carcillo stick with the team. It takes a bit of the pressure of Downie being the lone guy in that role. But who knows, maybe they saw something about him they didn't care for. But yeah, if we can add another guy in that mold that would be great.

I think getting Borts back, will help. Even though he is dmen, the team toughness factor will increase.

I agree. And the crazy thing is there was a spot for Carcillo on the team (ie. Adams' spot). It's not like keeping Carcillo meant having to get rid of someone valuable. Having more than one guy who goes out there and stirs the pot would have been nice.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Going after Doughty is the best thing you can probably do to the Kings, and we did that. At least Comeau did.

Right idea, but a single solid hit on the forecheck isn't enough.

Agreed, (with entire post) and it is ridiculous. And your right, this has been an ongoing problem. Steps have been made in the right direction, but not far enough. If there is little willingness to protect the stars on your team, you got problems.

I'm hoping we see some personnel changes before the deadline to address it. Way too much complacency on that front.

 

[JTG]

We do need to bring in some deterrents for the forward group. Not even necessarily big bad *****, but guys with some size and edge. Stewart fits t he bill in that regard, but what it would cost to get him v. what he's worth is sort of disproportional, IMO.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We do need to bring in some deterrents for the forward group. Not even necessarily big bad *****, but guys with some size and edge. Stewart fits t he bill in that regard, but what it would cost to get him v. what he's worth is sort of disproportional, IMO.

I'm not sure how much of the "high cost for Stewart" is just the Sabres GM trying to cook up interest. I can't see teams falling over each other to acquire a guy who so clearly needs an elite center to be effective.

But if the price is high, yeah, we should target someone else.

 

[JTG]

I'm not sure how much of the "high cost for Stewart" is just the Sabres GM trying to cook up interest. I can't see teams falling over each other to acquire a guy who so clearly needs an elite center to be effective.

But if the price is high, yeah, we should target someone else.

I'm not sure either. I do know, right now I'd be looking at Buffalo. I think if the price is right on guys like Stewart and Stafford, I'd take a flier on both of them. Both have produced in the past and bring that size and edge we are looking for. Downside, both are amongst the most inconsistent players in the league.

Why I think bringing those two in and putting them with Geno would work is that Stafford is a lot like Neal with a whole lot more playmaking ability, and Stewart is that "grind'em out" winger that drags guys to the net and is that grinder to work the corners and retrieve pucks. Is it overly optimistic? Probably. But if it worked, wow would that offense look insane.

I have proposed a Martin for Stafford and Stewart base. Add where needed. That'd open Buffalo up to move Myers.

A full time job in the top 4 must be made available to Simon Despres immediately. I don't care who goes. That guy has been our best defenseman this season, IMO.

 

[mpp9]

Stewart is absolutely not a grinder.

I think we need to be targeting players who have won or are hungry to win. Buffalo is not where Id be looking.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Stewart is absolutely not a grinder.

I think we need to be targeting players who have won or are hungry to win. Buffalo is not where Id be looking.

If we ignore available players playing on bad teams because of a perceived lack of hunger or resume of winning, we're going to have a lot of trouble acquiring someone. Winning teams aren't going to give away those guys.

So the more likely scenario is scouring teams in rebuild/salary dumping mode to find the players who best fit what we need. Buffalo, as a team, is terrible. But Buffalo has some individual players who could do well on our team, just as Edmonton, Carolina or Calgary (more perennial losers) do.

 

[Burgs]

Stewart has the size and strength to win a lot of board battles. But he rather wants to rush up ice and hammer shots at the net. If he has a coach who won't allow him to do that he looks bad and lazy because mucking and grinding isn't what he wants to do. It infamously got him into Hitchcock's dog house in St. Louis, it's probably happening again in Buffalo now.

 

[Zen Arcade]

The team's vets are mostly softish players, so you're not going to see them engaged in that type of stuff. Hopefully the culture is changing, it won't happen over night, but they're at least moving in the right direction now.

 

[billybudd]

I think they handled it OK, if Malkin and Crosby were out there getting mauled Marc Staal style, then it would've been a different story.

It would be interesting to turn someone like Farnham lose at some point just to see what happens though. When one of the Toronto Marlies hit Bennett from behind, he went off and all hell broke lose. He somehow ended up on top of a scrum, crowd surfed his way half way into the Marlies bench, throwing wild punches at anyone in blue and somehow drew a penalty in the process.

But he's more of a pest, there's no one in the organization, other than Leblond and maybe Ruopp that can really have a "come to Jesus" type effect on people.

Word.

You cannot stop the Kings from playing like that. You can't do it. There is absolutely nothing we could have done to stop it. Taking shots back does not help us in any possible way. They still take just as many shots at us.

Again, there's nothing we could have done to do to the Kings to do that short of a Trevor Gillies style assault. Nobody should ever condone that.

If you want us to do anything to stop a team like the Kings, we need to revamp our roster.

Yeah, I mean, I'd like us to have the option to engage in trench warfare with the Kings and not take the worst of it over something as silly as a slash (even if I would not have wanted to see it yesterday). But we don't have the roster to do it. We drafted nobody like that outside Bortuzzo. We didn't trade for anyone like that except Ruopp. All the college guys we drafted and signed are either soft, undersized or both. And size and toughness is extremely expensive in free agency, so you can cross that off.

It took Boston years to go from soft to BBB's 2.0 (and, incidentally, they're backsliding back to soft).

I'm not sure people are reckoning with what would need to be done to achieve what they're asking for from where we are.

It almost certainly would mean shipping out Bennett--there's no chance he could survive this sort of game even if he'd be good at it, which is dubious--for a player like Biggs. Sutter for Stewart. Harrington for McIlrath. Your fourth line would need to be something like Farnham-Sill-Devane.

I might be able to live with some of that, but you lose speed, skill and smarts. Is that really what we want?

 

[JTG]

Stewart has the size and strength to win a lot of board battles. But he rather wants to rush up ice and hammer shots at the net. If he has a coach who won't allow him to do that he looks bad and lazy because mucking and grinding isn't what he wants to do. It infamously got him into Hitchcock's dog house in St. Louis, it's probably happening again in Buffalo now.

Stewart is absolutely not a grinder.

I think we need to be targeting players who have won or are hungry to win. Buffalo is not where Id be looking.

He is not a grinder, but he's so big and strong, he works down low, in the corners, and around the net well. No, he's not going to just play the cycle and grind the corners just to grind the corners. When that guy first broke into the league, he was a monster down low. He also had some nice power moves around the net to go along with it. His game has changed a bit since then.

I've seen a hungry, relentless Stewart, and it's a crazy hockey player to watch. It's just a matter of getting him back to that point. He was never going to be a Hitchcock player, and he's not in a good situation in Buffalo.

People have a rightful feeling to be seriously reserved about the guy, and I am too. But if the value is there...we'd have to try it.

 

[JTG]

If we ignore available players playing on bad teams because of a perceived lack of hunger or resume of winning, we're going to have a lot of trouble acquiring someone. Winning teams aren't going to give away those guys.

So the more likely scenario is scouring teams in rebuild/salary dumping mode to find the players who best fit what we need. Buffalo, as a team, is terrible. But Buffalo has some individual players who could do well on our team, just as Edmonton, Carolina or Calgary (more perennial losers) do.

Yeah absolutely.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

getting a beer with johnston sounds a-ok to me. calmly answering questions with a insightful answers is a lot different than robotically spouting nonsensical garbage. abstruse over obtuse every day of the week.

Absolutely. I'd love to pick the man's brain for a few hours. DK's comment is puzzling to me.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Absolutely. It can't just be one guy, and it can't just be retaliating against the shlub that's targeting our stars. When someone challenges one of LA's own, that player has to deal with every King on the ice, but when one of the Pens gets involved, they're pretty much in it alone. Downie and Malkin both found that out last night.



Our veteran leaders - your Kunitz, Dupuis, Adams, Scuderi, Martin - don't seem to ever get involved in that sort of thing. Our meal tickets - Sid, Geno, Letang - have no problem getting involved. Our recent FA signings seem to be a step in the right direction, and the younger kids have some fire in them too.

Getting more engaged might be a simple matter of weeding out the aforementioned vets and replacing them with pack mentality types who won't stand for liberties being taken with our stars, rather than guys who prefer to stand around and find somebody to hug during skirmishes.

I have to agree. I've really noticed that with Dupuis. He definitely isn't the only one though. He just kind of stands there observing while our players get the business. I think he was also one of the observers when Orpik was getting his skull bounced off of the ice.

The culture either needs to change with these guys or, if they are unwilling, some of them need moved. It reminds me a little of Ryan Whitney when he said he wasn't going to play the body because it wasn't his game.

 

[KIRK]

Right idea, but a single solid hit on the forecheck isn't enough.



I'm hoping we see some personnel changes before the deadline to address it. Way too much complacency on that front.

Guy I loved, more than anyone since the Sid era began, was Ruutu. He proactively trolled the other team's top guys. Not just hitting them, but in their faces every two minutes. Not the other goons, not as a reaction to what was happening to Sid and Geno . . . he was proactive. And, as you've been saying, it was brilliant, because he knew that every moment the other team's goons and **** disturbers spent trying to kill him was one less moment they were focused on Sid and Geno.

I couldn't agree with you more on this, and it just makes me feel so . . . dirty.

I have to agree. I've really noticed that with Dupuis. He definitely isn't the only one though. He just kind of stands there observing while our players get the business. I think he was also one of the observers when Orpik was getting his skull bounced off of the ice.

The culture either needs to change with these guys or, if they are unwilling, some of them need moved.

He was. I vividly remember being excoriated last year on the 'it just happened too fast' grounds when I called him out for standing there.

 

[KIRK]

Still they are "3rd wheels" at best. Dupuis is great defensively and I would disagree that he isn't good on the boards. He can get a cycle going. His positionning is always good and a plays a very smart game. He helps out Geno a lot in the defensive zone and, as you noted, he produces just fine.Plus, he is a known commodity. Stewart in particular is a risk I am not willing to take (Kane is a risk as well, but he has so much skills that I would be willing to take the risk). Dupuis isn't "ok" in terms of being "second best player on a scoring line", but in terms of 3rd wheels, he is perfect. The problem we have is finding that "second best player on the line" and, IMO, neither Foligno nor Stewart are the answer.

The guys you propose are different players, not necessarly better players.

If we could have one of those guys + Eberle/Kane and move Dupuis AND Bennett to the third line, I would be THRILLED, but that's a pipe dream.

Evgeni Malkin is scoring at the worst ES PPG clip of his career right now. It's early, yeah he wasn't 'in shape', but your defense of Dupuis doesn't include any consideration of how he fits with Malkin. It's the type of logic that saw him on Malkin's wing for all of 2010-2011 . . . well, Dupuis is a solid player, can produce points, so let's put him with Malkin.

There's a reason Malone became a 4M per year player or Talbot had that playoff run with Malkin but Dupuis and him are like oil and water. It's the same one why Dupuis is so much better with Sid than a guy like Malone or Sykora ever was. It's this:

When talking about top nine players who are bubble top six (Sykora was when we had him, to clarify), it's not enough to say 'well, this guy does some good things'. It's more a question of the fit, stylistically.

I would've thought, after seven years of watching the Armstrongs, Malones, Sykoras, Talbots, and Dupuis of this world and how they meshed with Sid versus Geno that more people would get that.

EDIT: Wanted to add something about last night's scrum. I'm kind of encouraged by how this staff responds to those type of things. Obviously, you don't want Geno fighting, but, you know, sometimes it's just got to happen. I've always said that one of the things that killed the Pens in the 2013 playoffs was how the Pens and Boston respectively responded to the Geno and Bergeron fight. For the Pens, it was, to a man from the coaches to the players, 'he can't do that, we lost one of our best PP guys'. Only Niskanen said 'good for him, it was good to see him stand up'. To a man, from coaches to players, nary a Boston person said 'our best PK guy can't take himself off'. Every single one of them said 'when we see him doing that, when we see how emotionally involved and committed he is, we can't help but to follow'. That distinction ALWAYS pissed me off. There's a fine line when it comes to emotion in hockey, especially with the Pens given their Flyers history. BUT, it's almost like they've forgotten that there's good emotion and bad emotion, and both often can be manifested in the same act (Geno's scrum with Williams versus how he scrums with the Flyers). I'll be interested to see how he AND the Pens develop in terms of trying to find that balance again, because IMO it's been missing since 2009.

 

[Michael8771*]

If Stewart plays to his capabilities, and yes that's a big IF, he could really add a nice dimension of skill and a bit of physicality to our top six. After seeing the Kings antics a guy like Stewart is all the more attractive. A Guy who can put up points but also can mix it up a bit if need be. I'm sure Geno would appreciate such a player. And because he's gonna be a UFA I'm sure he may put forth that extra effort to secure a better contract.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Stewart has the size and strength to win a lot of board battles. But he rather wants to rush up ice and hammer shots at the net. If he has a coach who won't allow him to do that he looks bad and lazy because mucking and grinding isn't what he wants to do. It infamously got him into Hitchcock's dog house in St. Louis, it's probably happening again in Buffalo now.

We don't want him to be mucking and grinding. I'm fine with him hammering shots at the net, but he will go to the net as well. I have seen him do this. This will take at least one if not both D with him and open space for Geno.

 

[Mister Hockey]

Anyone think Fleury has a shot at the all time wins record?

Yes, he is a lot better that some give him credit for. If he has one bad game out of twenty, some posters want him banished to the ECHL. I'm sick of hearing about his one bad playoffs. Yes, only one. The team was just as much at fault. They hung him out to dry constantly.lf you want to blame someone, look at Disco Dan. He won on MT's system. The team needed the reigns loosen. He did that and won a cup. He was never really a good coach.

 

[66-30-33]

Yes, he is a lot better that some give him credit for. If he has one bad game out of twenty, some posters want him banished to the ECHL. I'm sick of hearing about his one bad playoffs. Yes, only one. The team was just as much at fault. They hung him out to dry constantly.lf you want to blame someone, look at Disco Dan. He won on MT's system. The team needed the reigns loosen. He did that and won a cup. He was never really a good coach.

LOL 1 bad? LOL!!!!

 

[KIRK]

We don't want him to be mucking and grinding. I'm fine with him hammering shots at the net, but he will go to the net as well. I have seen him do this. This will take at least one if not both D with him and open space for Geno.

That's what I see if his head is in the right place. Thing is, his board work will help too, because it means Geno can be the second guy on the boards, like he was with Malone or Talbot. Not just opening space and going to the net . . . a guy who can muck things up and prolong board battles will help Geno too.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Evgeni Malkin is scoring at the worst ES PPG clip of his career right now. It's early, yeah he wasn't 'in shape', but your defense of Dupuis doesn't include any consideration of how he fits with Malkin. It's the type of logic that saw him on Malkin's wing for all of 2010-2011 . . . well, Dupuis is a solid player, can produce points, so let's put him with Malkin.

There's a reason Malone became a 4M per year player or Talbot had that playoff run with Malkin but Dupuis and him are like oil and water. It's the same one why Dupuis is so much better with Sid than a guy like Malone or Sykora ever was. It's this:

When talking about top nine players who are bubble top six (Sykora was when we had him, to clarify), it's not enough to say 'well, this guy does some good things'. It's more a question of the fit, stylistically.

I would've thought, after seven years of watching the Armstrongs, Malones, Sykoras, Talbots, and Dupuis of this world and how they meshed with Sid versus Geno that more people would get that.

EDIT: Wanted to add something about last night's scrum. I'm kind of encouraged by how this staff responds to those type of things. Obviously, you don't want Geno fighting, but, you know, sometimes it's just got to happen. I've always said that one of the things that killed the Pens in the 2013 playoffs was how the Pens and Boston respectively responded to the Geno and Bergeron fight. For the Pens, it was, to a man from the coaches to the players, 'he can't do that, we lost one of our best PP guys'. Only Niskanen said 'good for him, it was good to see him stand up'. To a man, from coaches to players, nary a Boston person said 'our best PK guy can't take himself off'. Every single one of them said 'when we see him doing that, when we see how emotionally involved and committed he is, we can't help but to follow'. That distinction ALWAYS pissed me off. There's a fine line when it comes to emotion in hockey, especially with the Pens given their Flyers history. BUT, it's almost like they've forgotten that there's good emotion and bad emotion, and both often can be manifested in the same act (Geno's scrum with Williams versus how he scrums with the Flyers). I'll be interested to see how he AND the Pens develop in terms of trying to find that balance again, because IMO it's been missing since 2009.

As I said, then, if Dupuis is a better fit with Sid than he is with Geno, swap Dupuis and Kunitz. We live in a cap world, we will never have an ideal lineup. Ideally, our third line would be Dupuis - Sutter - Bennett, but that won't happen.

Dupuis is fine as a top 6 player even though he isn't ideal. But, as I said, in a cap world, you can't get "ideal" unless it comes in the form of a player on a rookie contract (Kapanen could be that guy next year, hopefully + having Maatta, Harrington, Pouliot and Despres on the big club would help us sign a top-of-the-line winger... but then, the defense, even if full of potential, would be less then ideal).

The way I see it, we have two superstar centers, 3 "third wheel" wingers (Kunitz, Dupuis and Bennett when healthy - he could be more than that though) and ONLY ONE "second best player on the line" winger (Hornqvist). The problem we have is that we lack one guy that could be Geno's "Hornqvist". We don't need lazy ass Chris Stewart. At best, he would be another third wheel. We need someone better than that so we can move Dupuis or Bennett to the third line and have a line of DUpuis/Bennett - Sutter - Comeau.

I mean, I am not crazy, I hope Bennett is good enough to relegate Dupuis to the third line and that we can find a guy that will play Hornqvist's part on Geno's line. However, I can't help but think that most of you are way too hard on Dupuis. He is a quality top 6 player. Might not be ideal with Geno (your oil and water comment), but he doesn't look "out of place" at all. The guy is one of the 20 best 5on5 forwards in the league production wise year after year. He even was when Sid was out, so he is not a product of Crosby. He can be frustrating and he does miss chances, but he is a very good player, we are lucky to have him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

you seem to think Dupuis and Kunitz are the same level of player. They aren't. Kunitz is significantly better than Dupuis in a top 6 role.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

you seem to think Dupuis and Kunitz are the same level of player. They aren't. Kunitz is significantly better than Dupuis in a top 6 role.

No I don't - even though, in lights of my "it wouldn't hurt Sid" comment, I understand why you would think I do. Kunitz is more creative and a much better finisher than Dupuis, no doubt about it. However, we know that Dupuis is a good fit with Sid and Kunitz is a good fit with Geno. Knowing that it is pretty much impossible for us to acquire TWO upgrades on Dupuis without hurting our depth at other positions, the best solution, for the time being might be to switch Dupuis and Kunitz until we can get Geno a wingman. It is about us being the best thing possible.

Dupuis - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Bennett (once he comes back)

Looks like a pretty good top six to me. Sure, it would be better if we acquired someone and Bennett was good enough to push Dupper out of the top six.

 

[Ogrezilla]

No I don't - even though, in lights of my "it wouldn't hurt Sid" comment, I understand why you would think I do. Kunitz is more creative and a much better finisher than Dupuis, no doubt about it. However, we know that Dupuis is a good fit with Sid and Kunitz is a good fit with Geno. Knowing that it is pretty much impossible for us to acquire TWO upgrades on Dupuis without hurting our depth at other positions, the best solution, for the time being might be to switch Dupuis and Kunitz until we can get Geno a wingman. It is about us being the best thing possible.

Dupuis - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Bennett (once he comes back)

Looks like a pretty good top six to me. Sure, it would be better if we acquired someone and Bennett was good enough to push Dupper out of the top six.

That's the best we can do without an addition. We should be able to find at least one upgrade without much trouble though. I think a 2nd would be easier than you seem to believe. Two guys like Glencross and Stewart would be doable imo.