News Article: Paul Holmgren's Best Moves as GM (Edit: Added Worst Moves as GM)

[Sniped]

Matt Read I'd say. Coburn is a close second.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Matt Read comes to mind. Carter and Richards deals as well. Michael Leighton of course stands out as a stroke a genius. Ville Leino was an absolute steal while he was here. Steve Mason is looking like it was a smart move. The first Emery signing as well worked out pretty well until the injury. Coburn as well which I forgot initially.

Let the flaming begin!

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Carter and Richards trades were a necessity because Homer spent years building teams the "wrong" way via trades and free agency, leaving the prospect pool completely empty and the team without cap space.

For sure it was a good recovery, but it would be better if the team weren't in such an untenable situation to begin with. It looks like they've learned their lesson though.

 

[Jtown]

I think His good moves are as such

Read
Ville Leino
Bob
Mason
Forsberg trade
Coburn trade
Picks such as couturier, laughton, and stolarz


Great Moves

Richards trade
Carter Trade



Bad Moves

Jvr
Eminger
Sbisa pick
Pronger trade and signing
bryz
Prospal trade
Kubina trade
shelley
bob trade
versteeg trade

 

[Embiid]

The Carter and Richards trades were a necessity because Homer spent years building teams the "wrong" way via trades and free agency, leaving the prospect pool completely empty and the team without cap space.

For sure it was a good recovery, but it would be better if the team weren't in such an untenable situation to begin with. It looks like they've learned their lesson though.

This is obviously valid especially since Holmgren and others in management publically admitted they went about things the wrong way and traded too many picks which was unsustainable. There was that epic thread between you and DFF arguing this point and of course I had to end it for the sake of sanity by providing the actual quotes...

 

[whatthef]

Off the top of my head . . .

1. Trade for Coburn
2. Sign Read
3. Trade for Leino
4. Trade away Forsberg
5. Trade for Hartnell and Timonen
6. Trade for Pronger (might have been higher if he wasn't injured or we won the Cup)
7. Trade for Carle
8. Trade away Carter
9. Sign Jagr
10. Trade away Richards

Pretty flawed article. Briere had a some great playoff runs but the only reason this is a borderline success and not a huge mistake is another lockout came a long and gave him the compliance buyout to cut that anchor before it got really ugly. Firing a coach 3 games into a season is dumb. You either fire a coach in the off season so you have time to properly search for a new coach and then they can have a full training camp to get their system in place. Or you are committed to a coach and you give him more the 3 games to get it together. Firing him that quickly into the season says to me that he wasn't sure about keeping him and let it ride into the season and when thing when badly then he finally made a decision once training camp and the start of the season was already wasted. Conversely how is the Pronger trade not on there? I know his injury etc dampen it but we might not make the playoffs in 2010 let alone make it to game 6 of the Cup Finals without him. I would go on but typing on an iPad is annoying.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Lucky for us the lockout happened & Clarke wasn't able to trade those guys for old vets like he normally did at the end of his run.

I'm not arguing about now but giving credit where it was due he had a good first year in his tenure.

I'm not taking away from it. He made some high quality moves to turn it around, but people like to ignore the fact that most of the biggest component in that turnaround as well as the best player on the team currently were inherited and already in the system when he took over. It wasn't all him.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Off the top of my head . . .

1. Trade for Coburn
2. Sign Read
3. Trade for Leino
4. Trade away Forsberg
5. Trade for Hartnell and Timonen
6. Trade for Pronger (might have been higher if he wasn't injured or we won the Cup)
7. Trade for Carle
8. Trade away Carter
9. Sign Jagr
10. Trade away Richards

Pretty flawed article. Briere had a some great playoff runs but the only reason this is a borderline success and not a huge mistake is another lockout came a long and gave him the compliance buyout to cut that anchor before it got really ugly. Firing a coach 3 games into a season is dumb. You either fire a coach in the off season so you have time to properly search for a new coach and then they can have a full training camp to get their system in place. Or you are committed to a coach and you give him more the 3 games to get it together. Firing him that quickly into the season says to me that he wasn't sure about keeping him and let it ride into the season and when thing when badly then he finally made a decision once training camp and the start of the season was already wasted. Conversely how is the Pronger trade not on there? I know his injury etc dampen it but we might not make the playoffs in 2010 let alone make it to game 6 of the Cup Finals without him. I would go on but typing on an iPad is annoying.

The Pronger trade was definitely great overall, but it's a weird case there. The career ending injury (granted, not Homer's fault at all) and his (as well as his staff's) complete misunderstanding of the 35+ contract rules in the CBA was just flat-out embarrassing.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

The Pronger trade was definitely great overall, but it's a weird case there. The career ending injury (granted, not Homer's fault at all) and his (as well as his staff's) complete misunderstanding of the 35+ contract rules in the CBA was just flat-out embarrassing.

While I agree it is pretty bad that no one in the room figured it out, I question whether or not anything would have went down differently (and if it had, it likely would have been worse...i.e. higher AAV). I mean, it sucks his contract is on the books for another three years after this one, but the likely other scenarios are either don't make the trade (which some may say that would have been ok with them) or sign him to a shorter term deal with a higher cap hit (somewhere in the $6 million to $6.5 million range, if not more).

Of course I will be labeled an apologist for these remarks, but at the end of the day, I don't think it actually hurt the team that they misunderstood/simply didn't know or read the rule. I can't imagine Pronger agreeing to the same deal on a shorter term, and I can't imagine Flyer fans being ok with a four or five year $30-$32 million dollar contract or thereabouts. Again, there is the alternative of not making the trade, but that is one I would do every day of the week.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Pronger's pay is ridiculous if anybody hasn't noticed, its like 7M a year for 4 years then 4M then 500K for the last 2.

I thought a buyout wouldn't be a bad idea after next year, but for some reason the rules still slam the Flyers with a 4.5M dead cap hit.

 

[Curufinwe]

Maybe they can trade him in summer 2015 to a cheap team that needs to hit the cap floor.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Maybe they can trade him in summer 2015 to a cheap team that needs to hit the cap floor.

IIRC, you can't trade a guy on IR.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

IIRC, you can't trade a guy on IR.

Acutally, I thought that you could as long as both teams agreed to it. But I could be wrong, Im not a huge rules/CBA guy

 

[Beef Invictus]

IIRC, you can't trade a guy on IR.

Not sure if agreement between both teams matters or not with IR, but there is no IR over the summer.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

Not sure if agreement between both teams matters or not with IR, but there is no IR over the summer.

My mistake. I read it more as can an injured player be traded, which I think they can. Im not sure if a player can be traded if they are on IR

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I'm not taking away from it. He made some high quality moves to turn it around, but people like to ignore the fact that most of the biggest component in that turnaround as well as the best player on the team currently were inherited and already in the system when he took over. It wasn't all him.

Carter & Richards were still young & relatively unproven heading into that season. Gagne was coming of an injury plagued season. Primeau's had a career ending injury. The whole backend had to be rebuilt because Desjardins retired & the rest of the guys were either no namers or guys better suited for the pre-lockout.

He was left two nice potential pieces but outside of that he was left a team that got old in a hurry & a banged up Gagne.

The lockout happening could have been a blessing in disguise. The team going into that year was likely in it's last year of being a contender before it needed to be blown up. Judging by Clarke's moves leading up to his exit I do think one of Richards or Carter could have been used as trade bait to bring in some pieces for right then. With that said we probably would have been in the running for the cup that year as well though.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Holmgren's made a lot of moves that I have liked...

Off the map free agent signings: Bobrovsky, Read, Raffl (maybe; I like it so far, but the jury's still out).

Free agent signings: Timonen, Briere (the contract was structured so he could be traded in the final years; he blocked the trade option, due to the compliance buy-out rules, because it allowed him to get more money), Jagr, Hartnell, to a lesser extent: Betts.

Trades: acquiring Coburn, acquiring the rights to Hartnell & Timonen, trading Carter, acquiring Pronger, trading Forsberg, acquiring Biron, trading Richards (as much as I loved Richie on the Flyers, his contract is awful; I still think he's a candidate for a compliance buy out in LA), acquiring Leino, acquiring Mason (maybe, again; good start, but need more than half a season)... but mostly because it rid the franchise of Leighton.

Non-moves: not giving in to Biron's demands for (reportedly) $5M/year, letting Leino walk, letting Carle walk.

Waivers: claiming Hall from Tampa.

Buy outs: Bryzgalov.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Bad Moves

Jvr
Eminger
Sbisa pick
Pronger trade and signing
bryz
Prospal trade
Kubina trade
shelley
bob trade
versteeg trade

Re-signing Leighton was a terrible move as well. Also the Carcillo trade was ****ing awful.

 

[Embiid]

Re-signing Leighton was a terrible move as well. Also the Carcillo trade was ****ing awful.

The Carcillo trade was bad...I remember how defensive he got in an interview and said how the fans were gonna love him. That was when he was throwing in picks like they were pennies in a fountain

 

[AaronTrieu]

There are the obvious ones and I think some of the best moves are the ones left unmade. Not signing leino and not signing gagne were good moves. Gags not playing still breaks my heart though.

 

[Giroux tha Damaja]

The problems with Holmgren right here in a nutshell:

He's too aggressive. Sometimes he's so eager to go after the shiny new toy that he doesn't value what he's got sufficiently. Examples: Having to trade next year's Vezina winner for a 2nd rounder to make room for a 50 million dollar goalie that was average for two years before being bought out. You know that goal scoring winger everyone is saying we need to find for Claude Giroux? We already had him, young and locked up for 6 years. And we sent him to Toronto for a 3rd pairing D-man.

Goaltending. The organization either doesn't have anyone who scouts professional goalies well in the front office, or they aren't listening to them. Their track record with amateur goalies hasn't been that good either outside of Bob, but they sort of get a pass on that since nobody besides Nashville/Mitch Korn consistently draft amateur talent that sticks in the NHL (not that many jobs), and they did sign Bob after all.

He doesn't manage the logistics well at all. The Pronger contract, having to trade Upshall + 2nd for an inferior player etc.


His talent is in eyeballing skaters and seeing who's got NHL talent. All of his good moves have been, in my estimation, a result of his considerable skill in this regard. The team trading the best player in a blockbuster deal almost always loses. Yet we won (in my estimation) both the Carter and Richards trades. Coburn trade, Read signing. All of those moves involve getting guys who at the time were contributing in smaller roles than they have been able to fill nicely here in Philly. That's an impressive few moves, any way you slice it.

 

[OzFlyers]

The problems with Holmgren right here in a nutshell:

He's too aggressive. Sometimes he's so eager to go after the shiny new toy that he doesn't value what he's got sufficiently. Examples: Having to trade next year's Vezina winner for a 2nd rounder to make room for a 50 million dollar goalie that was average for two years before being bought out. You know that goal scoring winger everyone is saying we need to find for Claude Giroux? We already had him, young and locked up for 6 years. And we sent him to Toronto for a 3rd pairing D-man.

Goaltending. The organization either doesn't have anyone who scouts professional goalies well in the front office, or they aren't listening to them. Their track record with amateur goalies hasn't been that good either outside of Bob, but they sort of get a pass on that since nobody besides Nashville/Mitch Korn consistently draft amateur talent that sticks in the NHL (not that many jobs), and they did sign Bob after all.

He doesn't manage the logistics well at all. The Pronger contract, having to trade Upshall + 2nd for an inferior player etc.


His talent is in eyeballing skaters and seeing who's got NHL talent. All of his good moves have been, in my estimation, a result of his considerable skill in this regard. The team trading the best player in a blockbuster deal almost always loses. Yet we won (in my estimation) both the Carter and Richards trades. Coburn trade, Read signing. All of those moves involve getting guys who at the time were contributing in smaller roles than they have been able to fill nicely here in Philly. That's an impressive few moves, any way you slice it.

Homer gets a lot of criticism but a lot of fan bases wish thier GM had the balls that he has!

 

[Hockeypete49]

To many to list but the Carter and Richards deals reshaped and stocked the team with talented youth and you all know how much I was a Carter fan. It gave the team a base to work with for years to come and add a infusion of talent while still being in the mix for the playoffs. I like the direction the organization has taken. Adding talent through FA and the draft. This team now has some decent prospects in the pipeline and with the young core I feel the best is yet to come. Holmgren has had his mistakes but it is not for lack of effort. This team still lacks the hammer on the backend and one more scoring winger who can win battles along the wall and show up every shift.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

He's too aggressive. Sometimes he's so eager to go after the shiny new toy that he doesn't value what he's got sufficiently. Examples: Having to trade next year's Vezina winner for a 2nd rounder to make room for a 50 million dollar goalie that was average for two years before being bought out. You know that goal scoring winger everyone is saying we need to find for Claude Giroux? We already had him, young and locked up for 6 years. And we sent him to Toronto for a 3rd pairing D-man.

I know that there have been "worse" moves that Holmgren has made, but this might be the one that annoys me the most.

 

[JustJim]

I have been upset about some of his moves, but I must give him a nod of approval for his most recent deals. Promoting Berube, Lappy, & Paddock to coach this team is the best move he's ever done. I also love getting Steve Mason for Mike Leighton.
Keep up the good work Homer!
And thank you for holding onto Couturier, Simmonds, & Braydon Schenn. The rest of the league are salivating for those guys, but screw the other teams!