Paul Holmgren's 5 worst moves as general manager

[Beef Invictus]

Prior to Bryz there were many little cuts that had been adding up, wrecking our prospect pool and cap situation.


But for a single disastrous move, Bryz wins hands down. When he was signed it was obvious on its own that it would inevitably cost us a great potential talent in net. Then when Bryz was a huge failure, Homer reacted by trading even more picks for meatshields to place around the net, contrary to the direction of the league since the cap era began, guys who would defend endlessly because they couldn't move the puck but also weren't too good at defending. In turn that crippled Lavi's system and forced him to try and work around it which was a disaster, which also gave us Berube in the end.

It cost us Bob, JVR, Schenn, numerous picks, set the team back to the DPE in mindset, ended Lavi's tenure for a truly terrible coach. It had tremendous impact and literally all of it was negative. And it was all unnecessary because a fraction of patience with Bob would've yielded the desired result, but I suppose they sensed the team's window was about to be hit by the cap truck and tried to go all in instead of waiting for Bob...that impatience marked Homer's tenure throughout.

 

[BillDineen]

I don't think the Pronger trade was that good considering that contract extension. Certainly worse than the Richards/Carter trades.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I liked the trade, but failing to understand the 35+ rule was awful.

 

[Pantokrator]

Prior to Bryz there were many little cuts that had been adding up, wrecking our prospect pool and cap situation.


But for a single disastrous move, Bryz wins hands down. When he was signed it was obvious on its own that it would inevitably cost us a great potential talent in net. Then when Bryz was a huge failure, Homer reacted by trading even more picks for meatshields to place around the net, contrary to the direction of the league since the cap era began, guys who would defend endlessly because they couldn't move the puck but also weren't too good at defending. In turn that crippled Lavi's system and forced him to try and work around it which was a disaster, which also gave us Berube in the end.

It cost us Bob, JVR, Schenn, numerous picks, set the team back to the DPE in mindset, ended Lavi's tenure for a truly terrible coach. It had tremendous impact and literally all of it was negative. And it was all unnecessary because a fraction of patience with Bob would've yielded the desired result, but I suppose they sensed the team's window was about to be hit by the cap truck and tried to go all in instead of waiting for Bob...that impatience marked Homer's tenure throughout.

I agree about the impatience. They said that power forwards take a while to develop, so they shipped JVR out after he was good, then had an injury, then was recovering from the injury. So much for patience.

Bob needed time to develop, so they yanked him in the playoffs for Boucher and Leighton, then traded him.

I don't know how much of that was on Snider, but that lack of patience killed us.

 

[Beef Invictus]

WAIT. I forgot. It isn't actually the Bryz signing. It's the MFL signing.


He gets him a day before FA when much better options were available. Leighton was hiding an injury. It caused Bob to be rushed into the league instead of eased in, which in turn created the goalie carousel that led to Bryzgalov.

All of the fallout of Bryz is actually fallout from Michael ****ing Leighton being signed.

 

[Embiid]

Let's not forget Holmgren's

1) Trading away (throw ins) of draft picks in trades like they were peanuts

2) Not having the b@lls to stand up to Mr. Snider's diktats when necessary unlike Hexy who said if I'm to become the GM..I need to be fully empowered. Snider finally conceded...had no choice after Bryzaster.

3) Not building up the farm system (see number 1)

4) Letting Jagr walk which he conceded was "probably" a mistake and then doubling down by letting an asset at the time (Carle) walk for nothing in return

5) JVR trade for a dinosaur D man that didn't fit Lavi's system because Holmgren and Snider dictated that Lavi change his style (the extra wrinkle of D) to protect Bryz better.

I can go on but my blood is boiling remembering what a crappy GM he was for the most part and how badly he set this team back. The end result has been no playoffs or 1st round ousters. He started off good and when they proclaimed they would focus on youth and the draft. Then he reverted back to trying to win a cup by getting a high priced FA in Pronger (almost worked but not enough b/c of the goalie problem) He bought some time with the Richards and Carter trade which was necessary and finally stopped giving away picks and drafting D men but then followed it up with more brainless moves like Bryz, AMac, Vinny and JVR trade. As I always said to much backlash ...the dude was the best GM at fixing his own mistakes or trying to fix them. But what are you gonna do...it is what it is ...or was

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[PALE PWNR]

Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo.

Just the general lack of care for draft picks. Looking back at how little we drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds under his management is ridiculous.

2nd and a 4th for Kubina. 1st for Eminger. Im sure there are plenty more Im missing

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

ill never forget the "we will contend for something" quote he made in one offseason presser.
that comment alone was a full moment.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo.

Just the general lack of care for draft picks. Looking back at how little we drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds under his management is ridiculous.

2nd and a 4th for Kubina. 1st for Eminger. Im sure there are plenty more Im missing

His best asset was scouting...and he spent all his time neutralizing his ability to use that skill.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I wouldn't consider the Bryz signing to be anywhere near the top four. Bryz was coming off some pretty good seasons prior to signing here to the point that literally nobody thought he would implode like he did. That was a surprise to everyone. Worst I can say there is that he went too big on the contract. Trading Bob was awful the moment that it happened, but they're not the same move so I don't think it's fair to judge them as such.

How is the Richards trade better than the Carter trade?

Voracek > Simmonds
Couturier >>> Schenn

Carter is way better than Richards and is still a productive top six two-way, 30-goal scorer to this day while Richards is done for. If you take into consideration their respective contracts than Simmonds is way better than Voracek, which I think is a fair way to look at it considering it's a cap world. To say Couturier is >>> than Schenn doesn't feel fair to me. They're forward that bring totally different specialities to the table and both offer things the other can't. I'd definitely say that Couturier is clearly > than Schenn, but it's not quite that huge a chasm.

 

[Hapiii]

Always posting this to Holmgren threads

 

[PALE PWNR]

His best asset was scouting...and he spent all his time neutralizing his ability to use that skill.

He was very good at getting guys locked up long term at well below market value too.

 

[The Madrigal]

How is the Richards trade better than the Carter trade?

Voracek > Simmonds
Couturier >>> Schenn

A. Jeff Carter is still a really good hockey player who the Flyers could have used over the years.

B. Mike Richards declined over night before he turned 30 and is no longer in the NHL.

C. Simmonds and Voracek are pretty close and when you factor in their respective contracts Simmonds is a more cost effective and valuable asset to the Flyers.

D. Couturier verus Schenn is subject to opinion. Schenn had certainly provided far more offensive production than Couturier has for the Flyers.

E. Schenn just netted the Flyers two first round picks

Points A and B are huge in context considering the Flyers got what they got for one guy who is still a productive second line center in this league versus a guy they signed that flamed out overnight.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

1. Bryzgalov

The need for a goalie was evident, the contract was the real problem here, but it appears that it has been well established that this is Snider's doing, not Homer's. Doesn't excuse it, but I wouldn't attribute it all to Homer.

2. Trading Sergei Bobrovsky to the Columbus Blue Jackets for 2nd and 4th round picks in 2012 and a 4th round pick in 2013.

He was traded after an abysmal season and an even more abysmal back to back playoffs after we just signed Bryz to a long-term deal. They did not make the right move, obviously, but at the time they had a goalie that had a good (not great) rookie season, a terrible second season, and two consecutive eggs laid in the playoffs. He turned it around, obviously, but at the time that was far from a guarantee.

3. Trading a 3rd round pick in 2014, and a 2nd round pick in 2015 to the New York Islanders for Andrew MacDonald and then subsequently signing him to a 6 year, 30 million dollar contract.

You forgot Matt Mangene! This one is definitely up there though. I defended it at the time (both the trade and the contract, but yeah this was a bad move.

4. Signing a way past his prime Vincent Lecavalier to a 5 year, 22.5 million dollar deal.

Liked the idea and really didn't have an issue with the term, but yes bad idea and bad contract.

5. Trading JVR to the Toronto Maple Leafs for Luke Schenn.

Had this argument a thousand and one times. Turned out bad but I'd make the deal (or a similar deal) at the time given the same information we had at the time.

 

[Adam Warlock]

The JVR trade was bad. He wouldve been a great player to have the last few years.

I also didnt like the trades for Carle and Eminger.

 

[Ruck Over]

Always posting this to Holmgren threads

Thank you, I love this video.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I wouldn't consider the Bryz signing to be anywhere near the top four. Bryz was coming off some pretty good seasons prior to signing here to the point that literally nobody thought he would implode like he did. That was a surprise to everyone. Worst I can say there is that he went too big on the contract. Trading Bob was awful the moment that it happened, but they're not the same move so I don't think it's fair to judge them as such.



Carter is way better than Richards and is still a productive top six two-way, 30-goal scorer to this day while Richards is done for. If you take into consideration their respective contracts than Simmonds is way better than Voracek, which I think is a fair way to look at it considering it's a cap world. To say Couturier is >>> than Schenn doesn't feel fair to me. They're forward that bring totally different specialities to the table and both offer things the other can't. I'd definitely say that Couturier is clearly > than Schenn, but it's not quite that huge a chasm.

A. Jeff Carter is still a really good hockey player who the Flyers could have used over the years.

B. Mike Richards declined over night before he turned 30 and is no longer in the NHL.

C. Simmonds and Voracek are pretty close and when you factor in their respective contracts Simmonds is a more cost effective and valuable asset to the Flyers.

D. Couturier verus Schenn is subject to opinion. Schenn had certainly provided far more offensive production than Couturier has for the Flyers.

E. Schenn just netted the Flyers two first round picks

Points A and B are huge in context considering the Flyers got what they got for one guy who is still a productive second line center in this league versus a guy they signed that flamed out overnight.

Fair points in Carter being a better player than Richards, but not sure at the time they were viewed that far apart.

I don't think you can use Voracek's or Simmonds' current contracts in evaluating the trade. They both were signed after the trade here in Philly. Voracek's big cap hit is because of his great production so it's definitely unfair to hold that against him in terms of trade valuation before it was signed

 

[Laveuglette]

The MacDonald trade wasn't that bad (not saying it was good), it was his extension that was the worst.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

There's a light of lumping together trades and signings.

Can't do that. They have to be treated separately as they're different transactions.

 

[Tripod]

A. Jeff Carter is still a really good hockey player who the Flyers could have used over the years.

B. Mike Richards declined over night before he turned 30 and is no longer in the NHL.

C. Simmonds and Voracek are pretty close and when you factor in their respective contracts Simmonds is a more cost effective and valuable asset to the Flyers.

D. Couturier verus Schenn is subject to opinion. Schenn had certainly provided far more offensive production than Couturier has for the Flyers.

E. Schenn just netted the Flyers two first round picks

Points A and B are huge in context considering the Flyers got what they got for one guy who is still a productive second line center in this league versus a guy they signed that flamed out overnight.

A and B....true.

C is not. Should we just ignore that Voracek had 4 years at 4.25 million for us and has only been in that big contract 1 year?

D. Nope...not opinion. Only so one uninformed or lacking hockey knowledge would take Schenn over Couturier.

E. Yup, he did. We traded the lesser player and hot a good return.

In the end, who cares. We got great value out of both deals. We were just so far into the hole that even with turning those 2 into 4 top 6 guys, we could not bounce back. There was little to no depth within our organization. And we are just now recovering from it.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

To put the Bobrovsky trade in perspective:

Two seasons before being traded - 54 gp & 0.915 sv%
Season before - 29 gp & .899 sv%

Mrazek who was not taken for free in the expansion draft
Two seasons before being draft- 54 gp & 0.921 sv%
Season before draft - 50 gp & .901 sv%

Mrazek was one year younger, but carried a $4 million deal with an RFA after the next year. 5.33% of the cap
Bob had a $1.75 million year before RFA. 2.5% of the cap

The Bob trade was fine for the Flyers, the Bryz signing was obviously not. Bobrovsky would have never won a vezina in front of the Philadelphia blue line/system.

 

[Magua]

The MacDonald trade wasn't that bad (not saying it was good), it was his extension that was the worst.

I guess but the #37 pick isn't chump change, combined with #78. That 2nd was a high value pick. They also knew his outlandish demands and signed him shortly after, so I find it harder to seperate the two. They had every intent to trade and sign.

It bears nothing into the trade evaluation, but that the picks became Carlo and Sorokin makes it funnier.

 

[The Madrigal]

A and B....true.

C is not. Should we just ignore that Voracek had 4 years at 4.25 million for us and has only been in that big contract 1 year?

D. Nope...not opinion. Only so one uninformed or lacking hockey knowledge would take Schenn over Couturier.

E. Yup, he did. We traded the lesser player and hot a good return.

In the end, who cares. We got great value out of both deals. We were just so far into the hole that even with turning those 2 into 4 top 6 guys, we could not bounce back. There was little to no depth within our organization. And we are just now recovering from it.

Hey, can you tell us all again how Crosby isn't a generational talent?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hey, can you tell us all again how Crosby isn't a generational talent?

What's the point? Some people have a definition of "generational" that includes multiple active players at any time, others are much more strict. Until an agreed upon definition of "Generational" is reached the debate is just offseason time-wasting, that you take it this seriously is bizarre.