tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
I'm actually kinda shocked people think it's as easy as a snap of the fingers to get premium players to sign team friendly deals. But ok then.
Patrick Roy's real level as a head coach?
- Thread starter Arto Kilponen
- Start date
I'm actually kinda shocked people think it's as easy as a snap of the fingers to get premium players to sign team friendly deals. But ok then.
RockLobster
King in the North
I wasn't analyzing signings.
People can't say things like "Well it's too early to tell on Everberg and Rendulic" when wanting to compare Roy's "GM" skills (and I use the "" because Roy isn't even the GM, Sakic is, and it's been said numerous times that Sakic has the final say on Player Personnel matters--but let's not let facts get in the way of this unruly mob here) but then turn around and for another player who is in his first season with the Avs call him a complete and total failure. In pointing out the salary of Stuart and Engelland, I was merely preparing myself for what I believed to be the counterpoint: "Okay, but why extend him at $3.6M?" Well because we see what UFA Defenseman contracts are going for.
So again, I wasn't doing anything that you seemed to think I was, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't attempt to make my response something it wasn't.
I need to stop talking about this. This is just so frustrating and it doesn't help to list all the reasons. It just makes it worse. It's less taxing when you focus on one group of mistakes while ignoring all the others. Some mistakes don't hurt so much and some you pay for in blood. Last summer Roy carved this team up and left it for dead. Last summer was truly an abomination.
Roy must have killed your cat as a kid or something.
This hatred you have towards him goes to an unimaginable extreme, for things that aren't even solely his doing, nor as bad as you make it out to be.
I dont understand how people still seriously believe the Stuart signing or the Iginla signing are bad things. Especially Iginla. Some people really just do not understand the salary cap at all.
Unruly mob? Seriously? That's an interesting characterization coming from you. It's also highly erroneous. Why the labeling? Because those are the people you disagree with? Given that this team went from a top 5 team last season to where it is now, it's perfectly sensible to be critical. Or in your mind does "unruly" = "being critical",...which , again, is completely appropriate given the current state of affairs. If you're going to get into labeling, it can go both ways and words like "acquiescence" and "sheep" come to mind.
JoemAvs
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2011
- 13,671
- 4,116
@RL:
I don't really differentiate between putting blame on Roy and Sakic for our management decisions.
I personally believe that Roy calls the shots but no one really knows and in the end they probably both make the decisions together in some way. I think they are equally responsible for the Avs decisions.
Really?
Odds are that Iginlas contract will be bad in two years. There is a reason no one else wanted to give him 3 years.
My main problem with the Iginla signing is that Stastny only makes 1.4 M more with an extra year. I just hate that swap.
The cap hit right now is fine. But he won't win a cup with us and he won't be in our future plans. It is an Ok move but not one I would praise them for. They had to do something after losing Stastny for nothing.
I don't get the Stuart love. The nice stretch he had before his injury somehow turned him into a good player on here. He is fine as a third pairing guy but he never would have gotten more than 4M in Free Agency. And even if he did, we could have used that money(+ an extra 2M we save by not extending our bottom liners) to chase a better player in UFA.
Giving up a 2nd for him is still indefensible.
Especially when during his 21 games he has been Colorados worst Corsi player so far. I know people hate Corsi but being the worst out of our always putrid Corsi-bunch is a bit damning.
Although you probably can make an excuse for him playing his games during our horrible stretch and not profiting from our small turnaround in performance.
Still not pretty.
On-Ice Corsi (CF%):
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC
I don't really differentiate between putting blame on Roy and Sakic for our management decisions.
I personally believe that Roy calls the shots but no one really knows and in the end they probably both make the decisions together in some way. I think they are equally responsible for the Avs decisions.
Really?
Odds are that Iginlas contract will be bad in two years. There is a reason no one else wanted to give him 3 years.
My main problem with the Iginla signing is that Stastny only makes 1.4 M more with an extra year. I just hate that swap.
The cap hit right now is fine. But he won't win a cup with us and he won't be in our future plans. It is an Ok move but not one I would praise them for. They had to do something after losing Stastny for nothing.
I don't get the Stuart love. The nice stretch he had before his injury somehow turned him into a good player on here. He is fine as a third pairing guy but he never would have gotten more than 4M in Free Agency. And even if he did, we could have used that money(+ an extra 2M we save by not extending our bottom liners) to chase a better player in UFA.
Giving up a 2nd for him is still indefensible.
Especially when during his 21 games he has been Colorados worst Corsi player so far. I know people hate Corsi but being the worst out of our always putrid Corsi-bunch is a bit damning.
Although you probably can make an excuse for him playing his games during our horrible stretch and not profiting from our small turnaround in performance.
Still not pretty.
On-Ice Corsi (CF%):
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC
Last edited:
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
RockLobster
King in the North
When I read this thread, and the GDT's, yes "unruly mob", while being admittedly exaggerated, isn't far off with the hate being spewed.
Do you enjoy your attempts at ruffling feathers?
Last edited:
JoemAvs
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2011
- 13,671
- 4,116
Really? News to me.
I thought it was down to us and Vancouver and we offered an extra year.
Or only us and Vancouver offered that extra year and he choose us?
Something to that extent.
I could see it with Snow being desperate after the Vanek fiasco but I have never heard about them offering him 4 years x 5.66M.
EDIT: It looks like you are right. Just found a report. My bad. Nothing about money in the report but it makes sense that Snow would pay up.
RockLobster
King in the North
The Isles definitely offered 4 years, but I am not sure if the $ they offered was ever released.
But I do believe you are right when it came down to us or Vancouver for Iginla.
One thing I cannot and will not forgive Roy for is not starting O'Reilly with Duchene. They had great chemistry last year. Down low on the PP they were excellent together. Makes zero sense to me.
- Aug 25, 2006
- 9,509
- 7,674
Good post. Add Allaire as well as a great acquisition.
Iginla was a must due to the loss of Staz so I'm ok with the 3rd year for Iginla to make sure they were getting him. As for the loss of Satz, yes in hindsight we should have moved him but I also understand the reasons to keep him. With the year we had anything could have happened in the playoffs if we stayed healthy. It was also important to try to give the team as good a playoff experience as they could and they needed Satz for that. However it didn't turn out that way unfortunately.
As for the contracts they certainly deserve praise for signing the kids to great cap hit AND terms. This is not always easy as we can see with ROR. If they are going to screw up on contracts extensions It is better if it is on bottom six players when it is easier to bury those. I'm still ok with their decision to extend Holden at the time they did because if they had waited this year and he had a great year he would have cost a lot more. Even at that money he can still be a serviceable 6/7th dman. I'm also ok with the Cliche signing as the money is so low.
The only signing I'm not ok with is McLeod. One more year might not have done it but two years should have been the maximum given.
I'm also ok with Stuart's extension as we need vet presence and we really need him on the PK. It gives time to the kids to get NHL ready.
The only problem I have with Roy's coaching is that he continuously send out the 4th line for an O-zone faceoff after a great shift. It very often kills the momentum.
I guess I fall into that category then because I can't "understand" over $4m/yr for 3 years being spent on an average 3rd pairing unless you are a team that has the luxury of having a quality top 4 locked up and have the cap space to spend the extra.
Add in that Holden will be making at least 600k more than he should be, and because of that salary, likely a lock for a roster spot as he probably won't be tradeable at his current level of play.
Iginla has surpassed my expectations and I will admit my first reaction will likely be proven wrong and his contract may not be as bad over the term as I initially thought.
Isles sure were aggressive this off season. I bet they offered Iggy good money too.
Bender
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2002
- 17,416
- 8,830
Oh well if CORSI says he sucks, then he must really suck...cuz you know, corsi, right?!
It's not Brad Stuart's fault that Redmond is sitting. I certainly don't think he should be sitting, I think he's our 4th best d-man after EJ, Barrie and Hejda but that's neither here nor there. When all the dust settles, Holden and Guenin are our two worst d-men overall. But right now, Guenin has turned his game around (since 2-3 games after earning "the general" moniker) and he looks decent on most nights, limiting his mistakes and Roy loves to use him on the PK. As for Holden, they re-signed him to a 3 year contract that starts next year, they were always going to give him a chance to recapture his roster spot. He's been fine in the 2 games he's played since that has happened.
As for Stuart himself, I don't know what the hell game you guys are watching. I don't know if it's because of the corsi stats themselves that frustrate you but I have found myself RARELY complaining about his play during the season. Not even close to the level of Guenin and Holden at times so far this year. For the most part, he's been fine. He's one of the few that actually hits pretty hard and while he's not a great puck mover, he's not prone to giving the puck away.
At his cap hit, when you compare with guys like Engelland (as mentioned), Bryan Allen, Clayton Stoner all making about what he's making, I think he's better than any of those guys by a lot. I think some of the hate is just from people that were just hoping we'd bring in a top pairing guy and when that didn't happen, just went full rage. Brad Stuart has been fine...he is not the main reason for our .500 record this season, not even close. He's likely a #5 guy with cup winning experience, that will hopefully raise his level of play come playoff time. While I don't "love" the guy, we have many other reasons as to why this team is .500 rather than Brad Stuart.
I'd say since we started the season 4-8-5 with man-to-man and we are 11-7-3 since the 6-0 loss to the Islanders after which we made the change, I'd say no.
Why would we do that?
So Stastny signs with the Blues for an INSANELY high amount which turns out to be a raise over what he had been making where fans were complaining nightly about his salary and performance. For the most part, Avs fans were happy we didn't cave in and give him that much and while we knew there would be growing pains with MacKinnon all-in-all, weren't too upset we didn't have a $7M dollar man on our payroll.
So what's changed? These are the growing pains that everyone anticipated. Here we are.
If that's actually the case then CORSI is a bigger ****ing joke than I thought before I read this because [MOD] anyone could tell you that Nick Holden has EASILY been our worse defenseman through the first 35 games of the season and it's not even remotely close.
ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY WATCHES THE GAMES, WILL CONFIRM THIS.
If Corsi can't even tell you that, then it's a bigger pile of **** than I could ever have even imagined. Totally laughable and it makes me giggle to no end to think that teams like the oilers think they're clueing in on stuff that other teams are not. Go right ahead.
Last edited by a moderator:
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
- 52,431
- 31,724
If that's actually the case then CORSI is a bigger ****ing joke than I thought before I read this because [MOD] anyone could tell you that Nick Holden has EASILY been our worse defenseman through the first 35 games of the season and it's not even remotely close.
ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY WATCHES THE GAMES, WILL CONFIRM THIS.
If Corsi can't even tell you that, then it's a bigger pile of **** than I could ever have even imagined. Totally laughable and it makes me giggle to no end to think that teams like the oilers think they're clueing in on stuff that other teams are not. Go right ahead.
Absolutely. The amount of times corsi gets player evaluations wrong just totally devalues it. You can't say it's remotely accurate, while at the same time telling people to ignore the countless examples that are blatantly wrong for various reasons. If it's wrong that often, it can't be relied upon.
Holden and Guenin have no doubt about it been worse than Stuart. It's not even close actually. Barrie plays a different role, as does Redmond who hasn't played as many games, so they're hard to compare. EJ's definitely been better, and it's close with Hejda. He played a great game the other night, but he's been pretty inconsistent this year.
Stuart after about 5 games or so, and pre-injury was playing very solid defensive hockey. He's also slowly gotten better after his injury, though he's not back on his previous level of play.
dahrougem2
Registered User
He is back on the right side too, and I think he needs to stay there. He's just one of those defenseman who looks so much more comfortable playing his off-side. He and Phaneuf are the two players who come to mind where they can play LD, but they prefer to play RD.
And Streit.
And guys come on, ignoring all stats what so ever. Stuart has been a trainwreck.
Last edited:
dahrougem2
Registered User
You honestly think that Stuart has been a trainwreck? Because that, to me personally, would suggest that you haven't watched even half of the games this season. Stuart in a 3rd pairing role is very good. If he's given 15-17 minutes per game with an emphasis on PK, he can be great for a team. We don't have the luxury to do that because our defence blows, but he's been as advertised. I don't think anyone was expecting anything more out of him other than solid defensive play.
He's been better than Guenin and Holden, and I'd also say he's been better than Redmond. He's been much better defensively than Barrie, though Barrie's offensive ability changes things, and I'd say he's just a step below Hejda. He's been far from a trainwreck. As others have said, I'd rather Stuart on this team at 3.6 than Derek Engyllend for his money or some of the other bums who got overpaid. At least we know what we're getting with Stuart, and he brings that exact game every night
A couple Habs fan friends of mine were discussing recent successes and it gave me a bit of hope.
FTR the Habs blueline nowadays is:
Markov - Subban
Beaulieu - Gonchar
Emelin - Gilbert
So to me it looks like the Habs had their own versions of Guenin/Holden, and I suppose they have their own version of Stuart in Emelin. One could reasonably argue that Emelin is a better player, but IMO they're very similar.
The Habs are only now just starting to incorporate their defensive prospects, starting with Beaulieu. They got some better vets to fill the gaps than they had in the previous season as well. I'm hopeful the Avs and Roy follow a similar path.
Yes, I am not at all a fan of Stuart, but it'll be a great day when he's the biggest problem on the team.
FTR the Habs blueline nowadays is:
Markov - Subban
Beaulieu - Gonchar
Emelin - Gilbert
So to me it looks like the Habs had their own versions of Guenin/Holden, and I suppose they have their own version of Stuart in Emelin. One could reasonably argue that Emelin is a better player, but IMO they're very similar.
The Habs are only now just starting to incorporate their defensive prospects, starting with Beaulieu. They got some better vets to fill the gaps than they had in the previous season as well. I'm hopeful the Avs and Roy follow a similar path.
Yes, I am not at all a fan of Stuart, but it'll be a great day when he's the biggest problem on the team.
I disagree a lot on Stuart.
But yes, it's better than Engelland. But he is one of the worst examples in the league. If we were going for mediocre this summer, why not sign Volchenkov for ONE year at 1-1.5M? Instead of paying picks for Stuart and that stupid re-signing?
This is where I'm at as well.
Stuart was not good in SJ the previous season, and I honestly think it was a gamble Sakic and Roy made and so far look like they've lost. Similar to my feelings on the Berra situation.
The only way I can make sense of the trade (and early extension) is that they truly believed Stuart would be able to play alongside EJ or at least as the defensive anchor for Barrie on the 2nd pairing. I believe Roy even projected Stuart on the 1st pairing initially. I don't at all think they were expecting mediocrity, but just that they missed.
Perhaps this, along with Holden and Berra, this may be the "young" FO/Coach moves that they learn from, so that when it does matter in a few years (when MacK and EJ are making bigger money and the cap space is tighter), Sakic/Roy the GM and Roy the coach will manage these gambles a bit better.
- Dec 4, 2002
- 10,709
- 1,665
Stuart has not been nearly as bad as some of you make him out to be. He's a limited player in terms of puck movement, but he's easily been the Avs 2nd/3rd best defensive blue liner this season. Perhaps not worth a $4M salary, but he's not too far off either.
The Berra trade/signing is looking more and more like a fairly silly mistake. Not only because of his dreadful play and contract extension, but also because it's not terribly hard to find a decent backup goaltender in the NHL - certainly easier than finding a 2nd pairing defenseman.
Well, I'd certainly buy the argument that he's been the team's 2nd/3rd best defensive blueliner, but isn't that the problem?
Ad
Latest posts
-
Useless Thread MDCCCLXXXVVIII - The Cancun Capitals Appreciation Thread- Latest: PanthersPens62
-
-
