Patrick Roy's departure from Montreal - why?

[vadim sharifijanov]

He had some notable feuds with guys like Matt Schnider, but Mike Keane and former teammate Sylvain Lefevre got along with him his first year here.

Tremblay kept having run ins with other Habs too.

you probably already know this but for those who don’t there were rumours about why roy and schneider didn’t get along that had nothing to do with hockey.

what goalie doesn’t occasionally glare at his defenseman after a horrifically blown assignment or at a forward for not trying hard enough on the backcheck? i don’t think i’ve ever read or heard anyone suggesting that roy was a bad teammate or that his teammates didn’t appreciate his personality (opponents maybe).

in fact, the total opposite: tomes could be filled with teammates talking about how his confidence, swagger, competitiveness, and expectation that everyone follow his lead made them better players and made their teams better teams.

 

[Big Phil]

And so ya, sad situation & not just for Montrealers' & Habs fans but for anyone who was around in the 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's. Didnt matter what team you were a fan of if not Montreal. Couldnt help but admire the organization, its personnel, players. The city itself, rich culture & history. Everything really.

That's how it was as a Leaf fan too. You hated them, but admired them. Maybe it is the same with the Yankees, Patriots, etc. But that was then. Now, as a Leaf fan I don't even take any joy anymore from Montreal finishing poorly. I have a friend who is a Habs fan and I told him I just wish you guys were good now because the NHL is a better place when Toronto AND Montreal are doing well. I want a playoff series between those two.

But they've just become obsessed with some of the wrong things. Letting a coach go because he couldn't speak proper French (Cunneyworth). Heck, give the guy a chance, if he is good and wants to stay let him take some French classes. I don't remember Pat Burns or Scotty Bowman speaking French to be honest. This all of the sudden dwarfs your pool to choose from.

 

[The Panther]

I don't remember Pat Burns or Scotty Bowman speaking French to be honest. This all of the sudden dwarfs your pool to choose from.

Bowman spoke French very well. Burns, I don't know...?

I personally think it's perfectly fine to always have a Canadiens' coach who speaks French. I'm pretty sure there are enough qualified French-speaking coaches that they can find a suitable two or three every ten years. It's not about the team, it's about the community.

 

[Neutrinos]

I wonder if Roy has Borderline Personality Disorder

It would explain the manner in which he departed Montreal, as well as his refusal to suit up for Canada in the '98 Olympics. Not to mention his retirement, which always seemed rather abrupt

 

[Staniowski]

Bowman spoke French very well. Burns, I don't know...?

I personally think it's perfectly fine to always have a Canadiens' coach who speaks French. I'm pretty sure there are enough qualified French-speaking coaches that they can find a suitable two or three every ten years. It's not about the team, it's about the community.

Yes, Bowman was fluent in French, and Burns improved his French and understood it quite well. Both guys grew up in Quebec.

I agree, there's no reason why they can't have a qualified coach who speaks French. Montreal is primarily a French-speaking city.

 

[Big Phil]

Bowman spoke French very well. Burns, I don't know...?

I personally think it's perfectly fine to always have a Canadiens' coach who speaks French. I'm pretty sure there are enough qualified French-speaking coaches that they can find a suitable two or three every ten years. It's not about the team, it's about the community.

I just never heard them speak it. If they did it well, or well enough for the Montreal media to be satisfied then so be it. All I am saying is that if you have a great coach, take him! You can always learn French. I did in the 1st grade (I've lost so much of it though since). I just think they've lost opportunities in the past because of this. You can always learn a language if you practice. Especially if you are the new coach in Montreal no doubt you would go out of your way to do this. They just never gave Cunneyworth a chance. I am not saying he was the right coach for the job, but they didn't even give him the time to learn the language.

 

[Randy Marsh]

This is incredibly interesting/cool to learn that Roy "leaned on" the shoulder of a fellow "goalie homie"!

Which may have cost Detroit a cup that year...

 

[Michael Farkas]

I wonder if Roy had Borderline Personality Disorder

I think that's a little too far in this case...knowing someone very close to me that was diagnosed with that, that's a pretty serious charge. I think Roy is just a cocky athlete with a strong sense of entitlement...and he often delivered the goods.

 

[Killion]

I just never heard them speak it. If they did it well, or well enough for the Montreal media to be satisfied then so be it. All I am saying is that if you have a great coach, take him! You can always learn French. I did in the 1st grade (I've lost so much of it though since). I just think they've lost opportunities in the past because of this. You can always learn a language if you practice. Especially if you are the new coach in Montreal no doubt you would go out of your way to do this. They just never gave Cunneyworth a chance. I am not saying he was the right coach for the job, but they didn't even give him the time to learn the language.

They both spoke french Phil. In Pat Burns case while he grew up in Montreal & understood much of it he didnt actually learn how to speak it until 16 & at that, basic street lingo....

 

[Staniowski]

Looking beyond Roy's clash with Tremblay, I think the broad issue that ultimately led to his departure from the Habs was the problems associated with the overall decline of the team, which had begun well before the trade. Some of the decline was probably natural, and some of it poor management.

Remember that the Canadiens had the 3rd best record in the NHL during the 1980s, and the 2nd best record from '85-'86 (Roy's rookie season) to '93-'94.

The strong Habs teams of the '80s and early '90s were generally built around a strong team defense - a good goalie, a good and deep group of defensemen, and forwards who played either a good all-around game or an exceptional defensive game.

But during the first half of the '90s, the team changed a lot. They traded their 2 best defensemen from the '89 Cup finalist team - Chelios and Svoboda, and then they traded their 2 best defensemen from the '93 Cup team - Desjardins and Schneider. They had also traded Lumme. As a result, by '95, the defense corps was depleted. Also, they traded their best defensive forward (Carbonneau), their #1 centre (Muller), and their best young forward (LeClair) from the '93 Cup team. The complexion of the team looked very different. They were no longer a defensive power. As the league was becoming continuously more defensive in focus during the '90s, the Habs were being led by Recchi and Turgeon, who weren't very good defensively.

This all put a lot of pressure on the goalie. This was the first time Roy didn't have a top defensive team in front of him. He was getting booed a lot. Of course, it mostly wasn't his fault.

 

[double5son10]

They both spoke french Phil. In Pat Burns case while he grew up in Montreal & understood much of it he didnt actually learn how to speak it until 16 & at that, basic street lingo....

Burns' mother was Giralda "Louise" Girardeau from Pointe-Calumet, a predominently francophone municipality. When Pat's parents met she actually spoke no English. His anglo dad died when he was 4 and his mother remarried a couple of yrs. later to one Harvey Barbeau and from then on Pat grew up in Gatineau, not Montreal. Pretty sure Pat knew some french long before he was 16, even if his accent was atrocious.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Looking beyond Roy's clash with Tremblay, I think the broad issue that ultimately led to his departure from the Habs was the problems associated with the overall decline of the team, which had begun well before the trade. Some of the decline was probably natural, and some of it poor management.

Remember that the Canadiens had the 3rd best record in the NHL during the 1980s, and the 2nd best record from '85-'86 (Roy's rookie season) to '93-'94.

The strong Habs teams of the '80s and early '90s were generally built around a strong team defense - a good goalie, a good and deep group of defensemen, and forwards who played either a good all-around game or an exceptional defensive game.

But during the first half of the '90s, the team changed a lot. They traded their 2 best defensemen from the '89 Cup finalist team - Chelios and Svoboda, and then they traded their 2 best defensemen from the '93 Cup team - Desjardins and Schneider. They had also traded Lumme. As a result, by '95, the defense corps was depleted. Also, they traded their best defensive forward (Carbonneau), their #1 centre (Muller), and their best young forward (LeClair) from the '93 Cup team. The complexion of the team looked very different. They were no longer a defensive power. As the league was becoming continuously more defensive in focus during the '90s, the Habs were being led by Recchi and Turgeon, who weren't very good defensively.

This all put a lot of pressure on the goalie. This was the first time Roy didn't have a top defensive team in front of him. He was getting booed a lot. Of course, it mostly wasn't his fault.

This seems to be more of a description of Montreal in the 4-5 games leading to Savard/Demers’ firing as opposed to the Roy trade. They were just coming off of a huge winning streak and gave every indication that 1995 was the anomaly and that 1995-96 would be a return to the normal high-end season. Roy was actually the league leader in Wins going into the Detroit game.

 

[Killion]

Burns' mother was Giralda "Louise" Girardeau from Pointe-Calumet, a predominently francophone municipality. When Pat's parents met she actually spoke no English. His anglo dad died when he was 4 and his mother remarried a couple of yrs. later to one Harvey Barbeau and from then on Pat grew up in Gatineau, not Montreal. Pretty sure Pat knew some french long before he was 16, even if his accent was atrocious.

Yeah. I read a blurb on him in a magazine some years ago wherein he told the interviewer he understood French as a kid, could communicate a bit but it wasnt until he was 16 that he was able to communicate more fully, conversationally. In that same article I recall him saying his father was of Irish descent & a hard core anglo, dont recall any mention of french lineage but whatever.... BOTTOM LINE; the guy could understand & communicate in french as an adult, as a 16yr Cop & as a Coach. Correct?

 

[Doctor No]

I wonder if Roy has Borderline Personality Disorder

It would explain the manner in which he departed Montreal, as well as his refusal to suit up for Canada in the '98 Olympics. Not to mention his retirement, which always seemed rather abrupt

Presumably, you mean the 2002 Olympics, since he did suit up for Canada in Nagano.

With respect to 2002, he had had legitimate reasons for "refusing to suit up" - he was on the back side of 35, the minor injuries were piling up, he'd been in a lot of long playoff runs over the past few years, and he wanted to be with his son at the Quebec pee wee tournament.

And what about the retirement seemed abrupt?

I think you're taking a collection of anecdotes and stretching for an "answer" to explain them.

 

[double5son10]

Yeah. I read a blurb on him in a magazine some years ago wherein he told the interviewer he understood French as a kid, could communicate a bit but it wasnt until he was 16 that he was able to communicate more fully, conversationally. In that same article I recall him saying his father was of Irish descent & a hard core anglo, dont recall any mention of french lineage but whatever.... BOTTOM LINE; the guy could understand & communicate in french as an adult, as a 16yr Cop & as a Coach. Correct?

I just remember this all from Rosie Dimaio's book Coach. She mentions several times in the book that Burns fictionalized a number of things in the media about his growing up, and particularly his relationship with his dad. She particularly mentioned a Michael Farber interview when he first started as coach of the Canadiens where he told Farber about his dad taking him to the Forum many times to watch Habs' games. His sister in the book put the kibosh on that, saying nope it never happened. Claimed he remembered the Richard Riot, though he was three at the time.
Burns liked to play up the Irish thing, even though the Burns family is actually Scottish and he seems to have tried to bury the French side of things completely. There were some other things, like claiming he was in a biker gang, which wasn't the case. Can't remember them all. Weird self-mythologizing.

 

[Staniowski]

This seems to be more of a description of Montreal in the 4-5 games leading to Savard/Demers’ firing as opposed to the Roy trade. They were just coming off of a huge winning streak and gave every indication that 1995 was the anomaly and that 1995-96 would be a return to the normal high-end season. Roy was actually the league leader in Wins going into the Detroit game.

Yes, the team's decline also is what led to the firing of Savard and Demers. This is really what I mean. One thing led to another. But it was the decline of the team that led to all these things.

When they lost in the 1st round in the '94 playoffs, that was the first time in over a decade that the Habs lost that early in the playoffs. The team and the fans of that period still had very high expectations. It's different from now (even if it was also different from the '50s, '60s, and '70s). They had the best record in the NHL over the previous 15 seasons. And then they didn't even make the playoffs the following year...for the first time in 25 years. During that season they traded Desjardins, Schneider, Muller, LeClair, and others. There was really an overhaul of the Cup team, and I don't think it turned out very well, all things considered, even though they acquired 2 of the most talented offensive players in the league.

Then they lost the first 5 games in the fall of '95, and lost them really badly. Demers gone. They had a real honeymoon period with Tremblay, but were then winless in 5 again at the time of the 11-1 loss. Notwithstanding the fact that their record wasn't terrible, I don't think anybody was happy with the season. Roy (and the entire team) was booed throughout the previous season, and that season.

If you're implying that the Habs' future looked good if Roy had stayed in Montreal, I don't agree. I think they had already traded too many important pieces, and the trading of Roy only added to the mistakes made by management. Even going back to Chelios...they obviously survived the Chelios trade in the short term, but I think they really suffered over the long term.

 

[Killion]

I just remember this all from Rosie Dimaio's book Coach. She mentions several times in the book that Burns fictionalized a number of things in the media about his growing up, and particularly his relationship with his dad. She particularly mentioned a Michael Farber interview when he first started as coach of the Canadiens where he told Farber about his dad taking him to the Forum many times to watch Habs' games. His sister in the book put the kibosh on that, saying nope it never happened. Claimed he remembered the Richard Riot, though he was three at the time.
Burns liked to play up the Irish thing, even though the Burns family is actually Scottish and he seems to have tried to bury the French side of things completely. There were some other things, like claiming he was in a biker gang, which wasn't the case. Can't remember them all. Weird self-mythologizing.

... good grief doubl5... as yes, that was the writer (Farber) and the publicarion I believe called "Hockey Inside Out" (?) ... interview from late 80's maybe?..... Absolutely bizarre. Because ya, I do remember reading that "my Dad was Irish to the bone" and so on & so forth..... and about some francophone kid "was always stealing my bike, had to go over there n' straighten him out" and so on & so forth. I wasnt aware that Burns was a "revisionist", essentially just recreating his childhood absent his birth father & so on. Early adulthood as well it sounds like. From Biker to Cop. Not unheard of but mighty rare. Make for a good screenplay. From Biker to Cop to Coach of the Montreal Canadiens. Right on.

Ive of course encountered people, many here I'm sure have who in compensating for an unhappy childhood or absent parent make stuff up as they perhaps feel shame, or are ashamed of one of their parents. I knew a kid growing up, Mom but no Dad around, told everyone at school that his father was some high profile Producer in Hollywood - were in Toronto - doesnt quite jibe Buddy - Papa rarely home, though of course that not the truth... went out for a pack of cigarettes & never returned, no calls, nothing is what happened.... but by God, he'd go atcha, fist flying if you called him on it as there was a real stigma to that sort of thing, still is in many communities... So ya. All very interesting. Wasnt aware of this aspect of his personality, character. Never really delved into his past, psyche. What made him tick, how he operated, foibles n' all. And quite a few uh? Several baggage cars full in fact. Crazy.

 

[Big Phil]

Remember that the Canadiens had the 3rd best record in the NHL during the 1980s, and the 2nd best record from '85-'86 (Roy's rookie season) to '93-'94.

If I had to guess, the only team that I can think of to be #1 over this time has to be Calgary, no? Maybe Boston.

Anyway, I always wondered about that night against Detroit with Roy, with the fans giving him the Bronx cheer and such when he made a save. How much did that play into him leaving? Was that just the climax, was it just the cherry on top? Or did it really bother him to the point where he asked to be traded right on the bench at that moment and just never wanted to backtrack?

Tremblay's reaction to Roy talking to Corey is priceless. He has a look of "Just where do you think you are going?"

 

[Staniowski]

If I had to guess, the only team that I can think of to be #1 over this time has to be Calgary, no? Maybe Boston.

Yeah, from '85-'86 to '93-'94, the Flames had a slightly better record, but close enough to call it a tie, really.

From '79-'80 to '88-'89, Habs were 3rd, not far behind Oilers and Flyers.

And from '79-'80 to '93-'94, Habs were 1st, ahead of the Bruins.

 

[blood gin]

I had no idea there were any issues between Schneider and Roy. What exactly went on there?

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Which may have cost Detroit a cup that year...

Ha ha ha!! Damn! Ya know?!

 

[Doctor No]

I had no idea there were any issues between Schneider and Roy. What exactly went on there?

Here's the Red Fisher version of events (for at least one of the issues):

It started, Schneider said, when Roy had this message for the players: "Guys, we're down two goals, but we can still win this game. There's only one guy in this room who isn't doing his job." Then Roy looked directly at Schneider. "Shut the (expletive deleted) up," Schneider told Roy. "Just stop the puck!"

At that point, Roy flung the contents of a plastic cup at him. Schneider then tossed a punch at his goaltender, but teammates leaped in to separate the two as general manager Serge Savard and head coach Jacques Demers rushed into the room.

 

[blood gin]

Here's the Red Fisher version of events (for at least one of the issues):

It started, Schneider said, when Roy had this message for the players: "Guys, we're down two goals, but we can still win this game. There's only one guy in this room who isn't doing his job." Then Roy looked directly at Schneider. "Shut the (expletive deleted) up," Schneider told Roy. "Just stop the puck!"

At that point, Roy flung the contents of a plastic cup at him. Schneider then tossed a punch at his goaltender, but teammates leaped in to separate the two as general manager Serge Savard and head coach Jacques Demers rushed into the room.

Wow. Ridiculous and almost comically childish on Roy's part.