Panarin vs Patrick Kane

[VoluntaryDom]

who is better

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[flamesforcup]

Patrick or Evander?

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Patrick or Evander?

Patrick

 

[major major]

I've been more impressed by Panarin's all-around game than Kane's.

 

[Regal]

Kane. Panarin was better last year, but it's the only year he has been so far. Not a huge gap though. Panarin is better off the puck but Kane is better offensively

 

[SillyRabbit]

Kane but it’s quite close honestly.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Panarin is a monster. he's slightly better offensively and his overall game is quite a bit better. it's a little surprising he's trailing by so much here

 

[Regal]

Panarin is a monster. he's slightly better offensively and his overall game is quite a bit better. it's a little surprising he's trailing by so much here

What makes Panarin better offensively?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

What makes Panarin better offensively?

Kane is a better power play guy, Panarin is a better 5-on-5 offensive player. But I think people are sympathetic to Panarin, whose Blue Jackets are dead last in PP% since 2017-2018 started. They’re neck and neck offensively IMO.

 

[Regal]

Kane is a better power play guy, Panarin is a better 5-on-5 offensive player. But I think people are sympathetic to Panarin, whose Blue Jackets are dead last in PP% since 2017-2018 started. They’re neck and neck offensively IMO.

I'm not sure I buy that Panarin is better 5v5. He wasn't in Chicago and I don't think things have changed much. I know he has better 5v5 rates, but Kane is also getting huge minutes on a poor team like McDavid where it skews his numbers and he has much worse 5v5 linemates and transition defensemen. I'd say they're pretty even 5v5 with Kane the better PP player. At least, offensively

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I'm not sure I buy that Panarin is better 5v5. He wasn't in Chicago and I don't think things have changed much. I know he has better 5v5 rates, but Kane is also getting huge minutes on a poor team like McDavid where it skews his numbers and he has much worse 5v5 linemates and transition defensemen. I'd say they're pretty even 5v5 with Kane the better PP player. At least, offensively

You don’t think things have changed much since Chicago? That’s weird, because I think things have actually changed a whole lot. Kane lost his best teammate and Panarin changed teams. I think Panarin has pretty clearly taken a step forward.

I’m not looking at rates, just points. Since 2017-2018 started, Kane has 76 5V5 points and Panarin has 83 5V5 points in 5 fewer games. Kane has played about 80 more minutes but that can be almost entirely explained by the games played.

Kane does have the inferior linemates, I’ll give you that, but PLD and Atkinson are hardly superstars. And the difference between teammates is not present on the power play where Chicago is slightly better than Columbus but both suck. On top of that, you have to look at the context of the power play, where Panarin has played 359 minutes and Kane has played 437. If you were to give Panarin an extra 78 minutes on a power play where he has scored 4.52 points per 60 minutes, and assume his scoring rate drops slightly, he would have 7 extra power play points.

For me, they’re real close offensively. It’s on the defensive side of things where Panarin really has an edge over Kane IMO.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

You don’t think things have changed much since Chicago? That’s weird, because I think things have actually changed a whole lot. Kane lost his best teammate and Panarin changed teams. I think Panarin has pretty clearly taken a step forward.

I’m not looking at rates, just points. Since 2017-2018 started, Kane has 76 5V5 points and Panarin has 83 5V5 points in 5 fewer games. Kane has played about 80 more minutes but that can be almost entirely explained by the games played.

Kane does have the inferior linemates, I’ll give you that, but PLD and Atkinson are hardly superstars. And the difference between teammates is not present on the power play where Chicago is slightly better than Columbus but both suck. On top of that, you have to look at the context of the power play, where Panarin has played 359 minutes and Kane has played 437. If you were to give Panarin an extra 78 minutes on a power play where he has scored 4.52 points per 60 minutes, and assume his scoring rate drops slightly, he would have 7 extra power play points.

For me, they’re real close offensively. It’s on the defensive side of things where Panarin really has an edge over Kane IMO.

panarin isnt really any different from now to his chicago days. its no coincidence kane's 5v5 numbers fell off the moment panarin left, and kane had his best offensive seasons with panarin.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Kane is having a much better year so far and until Panarin can clearly show he has passed him I go with Kane.

Hopefully Panarin signs with Chicago in 7 months and they play together again

 

[3074326]

Panarin for me. Has a better all-around game and the offense is basically the same.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Panarin for me. Has a better all-around game and the offense is basically the same.

Not this year, Kane is on pace for another 40+ goal, 100 point season compared to Panarin 27 goals and 92 points

A clear edge for Kane

 

[Regal]

You don’t think things have changed much since Chicago? That’s weird, because I think things have actually changed a whole lot. Kane lost his best teammate and Panarin changed teams. I think Panarin has pretty clearly taken a step forward.

I’m not looking at rates, just points. Since 2017-2018 started, Kane has 76 5V5 points and Panarin has 83 5V5 points in 5 fewer games. Kane has played about 80 more minutes but that can be almost entirely explained by the games played.

Kane does have the inferior linemates, I’ll give you that, but PLD and Atkinson are hardly superstars. And the difference between teammates is not present on the power play where Chicago is slightly better than Columbus but both suck. On top of that, you have to look at the context of the power play, where Panarin has played 359 minutes and Kane has played 437. If you were to give Panarin an extra 78 minutes on a power play where he has scored 4.52 points per 60 minutes, and assume his scoring rate drops slightly, he would have 7 extra power play points.

For me, they’re real close offensively. It’s on the defensive side of things where Panarin really has an edge over Kane IMO.

I mean in their abilities as players, I don't think things have changed massively no. Panarin might be a little better and Kane a little worse, but I think the difference between them is mostly situational. Panarin probably deferred to Kane too much when they were together and has flourished as the go-to player, but that's a bit different, and Kane is now on a poor team.

As for points, I would say that's fairly minor, and can easily be explained by team situation. I know Panarin isn't playing with superstars, but both PLD and Atkinson are solid first line players and Atkinson is on pace for 50 goals. Currently Panarin is 7th in the league with 34 5v5 points and Kane is 14th with 30, but then Atkinson is 15th, only one point back of Kane with 29, and Dubois is tied for 19th with 27. Meanwhile, Kane's most common linemates are Anisimov with 16, Saad with 15 and Strome with 10. Similar to the Calgary top line this year, or the Vegas line last year, the CBJ top line seems to be humming along at a good clip with all of them benefitting.

I can see maybe giving a slight edge to Panarin at ES, but the difference is so minimal I would say it's a wash. At the very least, Kane's edge on the PP is much larger. He's always managed to put up the points there and there's a lot less to work with than Columbus.

I can see Panarin's overall game winning out, but I think offense is more important for wingers at this level.

 

[Regal]

panarin isnt really any different from now to his chicago days. its no coincidence kane's 5v5 numbers fell off the moment panarin left, and kane had his best offensive seasons with panarin.

Going from Panarin to scrubs is going to hurt anyone, but it's not as if his 5v5 numbers aren't still strong.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

panarin isnt really any different from now to his chicago days. its no coincidence kane's 5v5 numbers fell off the moment panarin left, and kane had his best offensive seasons with panarin.

That’s interesting, aren’t you the guy who uses WOWYs to say Rantanen sucks?

At 5-on-5, in the entirety of Panarin’s tenure in Chicago:

Panarin + Kane:

54.02% CF, 56.04% GF
AP - 1.74 P1/60
PK - 1.95 P1/60

Panarin without Kane:

0.82 P1/60
49.87% CF, 46.88% GF

Kane without Panarin:

1.96 P1/60
44.89% CF, 50.85% GF

Kane’s P1/60 actually slightly increased without Panarin, while Panarin’s P1/60 dropped by more than half away from Kane. Panarin clearly played a lot worse away from Kane and Kane didn’t take too much of a hit in the points column without Panarin, although his on-ice metrics were clearly affected. I’m shocked to see you say that Panarin leaving obviously hurt Kane’s production, when the WOWYs seem to show the opposite. After all, we all know that in the world of DominicBoltsFan, WOWYs that are void of context in a minuscule sample size are the word of gospel.

You absolutely crucify Mikko Rantanen for having a large drop P1/60 in small sample sizes without Nathan MacKinnon, and cite the fact that MacKinnon has a smaller drop as evidence that Rantanen must be a product of MacKinnon - that he must actually not be all that good. By your same logic, Artemi Panarin, as a Blackhawk, must have been downright terrible, because his P1/60 (your favorite!) fell off a cliff without Kane.

Yet, he moved over to Columbus with no Patrick Kane, and his P1/60 is now 2.07. Even higher in Columbus than it was in the minutes he played with Patrick Kane! (He’s also rocking a much stronger CF%, CFRel%, GF%, and GFRel% in Columbus than he did in Chicago, even in just the minutes he skated with Kane.)

I really want to hear you try and find a way to explain how Mikko Rantanen’s WOWYs completely disqualify him from being elite, but how Artemi Panarin’s WOWYs in Chicago didn’t disqualify him from being elite.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

That’s interesting, aren’t you the guy who uses WOWYs to say Rantanen sucks?

At 5-on-5, in the entirety of Panarin’s tenure in Chicago:

Panarin + Kane:

54.02% CF, 56.04% GF
AP - 1.74 P1/60
PK - 1.95 P1/60

Panarin without Kane:

0.82 P1/60
49.87% CF, 46.88% GF

Kane without Panarin:

1.96 P1/60
44.89% CF, 50.85% GF

Kane’s P1/60 actually slightly increased without Panarin, while Panarin’s P1/60 dropped by more than half away from Kane. Panarin clearly played a lot worse away from Kane and Kane didn’t take too much of a hit in the points column without Panarin, although his on-ice metrics were clearly affected. I’m shocked to see you say that Panarin leaving obviously hurt Kane’s production, when the WOWYs seem to show the opposite. After all, we all know that in the world of DominicBoltsFan, WOWYs that are void of context in a minuscule sample size are the word of gospel.

You absolutely crucify Mikko Rantanen for having a large drop P1/60 in small sample sizes without Nathan MacKinnon, and cite the fact that MacKinnon has a smaller drop as evidence that Rantanen must be a product of MacKinnon - that he must actually not be all that good. By your same logic, Artemi Panarin, as a Blackhawk, must have been downright terrible, because his P1/60 (your favorite!) fell off a cliff without Kane.

Yet, he moved over to Columbus with no Patrick Kane, and his P1/60 is now 2.07. Even higher in Columbus than it was in the minutes he played with Patrick Kane! (He’s also rocking a much stronger CF%, CFRel%, GF%, and GFRel% in Columbus than he did in Chicago, even in just the minutes he skated with Kane.)

I really want to hear you try and find a way to explain how Mikko Rantanen’s WOWYs completely disqualify him from being elite, but how Artemi Panarin’s WOWYs in Chicago didn’t disqualify him from being elite.

huh i didnt notice that about panarins minutes away from kane in chicago. whats the sample there?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

huh i didnt notice that about panarins minutes away from kane in chicago. whats the sample there?

2005 together, 439 just Panarin, 675 just Kane.

For reference, Rantanen and MacKinnon are at 1565 together, 245 with just Rantanen, and 225 with just MacKinnon.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

2005 together, 439 just Panarin, 675 just Kane.

For reference, Rantanen and MacKinnon are at 1565 together, 245 with just Rantanen, and 225 with just MacKinnon.

huh decent sample there (way more conclusive than monahans sample away from gaudreau for example). ill have to check what combos those mins were mainly in. so it seems panarin has simply improved his game since getting to CBJ. that makes sense though as his numbers this season are way better than last season so he may just still be getting better.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

the bulk of panarins minutes away from kane in chicago are on a line with hossa and anisimov (165 mins), which was better by xGF% GF% and CF% than the same line with kane replacing hossa (panarins most common line by a landslide at 1437 mins). bringing down panarins on ice numbers without kane seem to be less used line combos like anisimov-panarin-panik at 26% xgf% in under 15 mins.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

whereas Rantanen's 4 most common line combinations away from mackinnon are all under 33% xgf% in over 20 mins (landeskog-kerfoot-rantanen, compher-jost-rantanen*, landeskog-soderberg-rantanen, landeskog-compher-rantanen*)

*these two are especially bad at 20% xgf% or lower

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Kane is a better power play guy, Panarin is a better 5-on-5 offensive player. But I think people are sympathetic to Panarin, whose Blue Jackets are dead last in PP% since 2017-2018 started. They’re neck and neck offensively IMO.

Not sure where to find combined year over year numbers, but even if accurate, the Hawks are right there with them. Don't see how this can be a point for the argument for Panarin.

2017
CBJ 25th 17.2%
CHI 28th 16.0%

2018
CBJ 31st 12.0%
CHI 25th 15.0%

 

[GoGoSens]

Kane is superior to Panarian in everway that matters