Speculation: "Paging Mr. Shero, your job is on the line"

[NastyNick]

Bill Guerin was Shero's best move. Gary Roberts was his second best move. I don't know why he got away from getting these kind of guys. They need some grit and leadership on the team.

 

[Freeptop]

Bill Guerin was Shero's best move. Gary Roberts was his second best move. I don't know why he got away from getting these kind of guys. They need some grit and leadership on the team.

When Shero went out to get Iginla, it was clearly with the intent of getting that kind of guy. Regardless of the reason for why it happened, Iginla turned out to not be that kind of guy for the Pens. I'm sure getting put on the wrong wing and not with the player he was clearly brought in to play with didn't help matters, but at the same time, Iginla even admitted that he was sitting back and letting others be the leaders during his time as a Penguin.

This season, there really weren't any Guerin or Roberts types out there.

The fact of the matter is, there really aren't very many of that ilk to begin with, and most of the teams that have them aren't looking to let them go.

 

[Sutter16]

Great post. Definitely agree on a lot of points

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

When Shero went out to get Iginla, it was clearly with the intent of getting that kind of guy. Regardless of the reason for why it happened, Iginla turned out to not be that kind of guy for the Pens. I'm sure getting put on the wrong wing and not with the player he was clearly brought in to play with didn't help matters, but at the same time, Iginla even admitted that he was sitting back and letting others be the leaders during his time as a Penguin.

This season, there really weren't any Guerin or Roberts types out there.

The fact of the matter is, there really aren't very many of that ilk to begin with, and most of the teams that have them aren't looking to let them go.

I can understand Iginla sitting back and letting others be leaders. He was the new guy on the team, and I would imagine that you can't just walk into a locker room with an established leadership group and take over. Gradually yes, but I don't think a month is really long enough.

The way they used Iginla has made me wonder if Shero got him just to keep him away from other teams.

 

[dueling mullets]

Spot on. This team is going to regret re-signing both Dupuis and Kunitz. Excluding the coaching clinic Julien gave DB in the Boston series, the Boston roster also exemplified a tough, physical, built for the playoffs team. None of those roster deficiencies that the Boston series showed the Pens have were addressed, in fact, those deficiencies were rewarded with contracts. Shero rewards regular season success, not post-season.

Shero inherited another coach's team, the Pens beat a Datsyuk-less Redwings to win the cup, and Shero and DB were regarded as wizards. I had friends in college that were all from Michigan and obviously, Red Wings fans. We argued so much about how the Pens were lucky to win the cup. These past few years have shown that maybe they were right. The Flyers series was an embarrassment, but was written off. Vokoun saved the Isles series from being an embarrassment. The Boston series was an embarrassment, and players that were involved in both previous exits in embarrassing fashion, while not performing, get contract extensions in their mid 30's. Good game.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

One of the biggest problems I have with Shero is he's a hands off manager.

Being a hands off manager is fine if all of your operations are running smoothly to your plan with ZERO issues.

There have been 5 years of issues since 2009 that have popped up over time and it seems like each time an issue has came up, Shero's back to being hands off again.

We lose a 3-1 lead against Tampa, no problem we can find an excuse for why we lost.

We lose a crazy out of control series against Philly, no problem we can find an excuse for why we lost.

We almost lose and get badly embarrassed and outplayed by the Islanders, can't score against the Bruins, no problem we can find an excuse for why we lost and re-sign Dan to another 2 year deal.

We bring in multiple veterans including a future HoF'er that looks lost on the ice but is continuously played out of position? No problem. I'll continue to let Dan do his thing.

Now this may all seem like nonsense to some of you but I've been a manager in various places. I also manage my own company now. If I was that hands off with major issues taking place without fixing them, guess what, my business would go out of business. The same applies here. The regular season winning has masked issues and the fanbase hasn't been fed up enough to start calling for heads or quit paying for tickets yet. When that starts to happen, then Ray's bosses will start taking notice and give him a talk.

Burkle doesn't strike me as the type of owner to not see when his business is being ****ed up. I think he trusted Ray and Dan to make changes and address issues and he gave them a shot at doing so. No matter what, for things to get to this again in both series with issues against CBJ and the Rags, I think Dan is gone. Ray might not want to make that move but it might not be his choice. If Ray doesn't want to fire Dan, then Ray will be gone too.

There comes a time in business where when things aren't going right, bidness is bidness and someone is going to force changes when things start to go downhill.

I've been a STH for a long time. If there aren't changes after this year, I am seriously reconsidering my expendable cash and emotional investment with this team and moving it to something else. The play isn't what bothers me so much. I've been there through the thick and thin of this team pre Lemieux days. The thing that bothers me the most is the outright arrogance and ignorance of someone like Byslma to say the crazy **** he says to the media and downright lie to the fans who support this organization. I love the Pens but my patience is wearing thin supporting an organization with someone who lies to the fans when the fans know better.

Get your **** together Pens. There are a lot of us out here feeling this way right now. I heard it pretty good from fans in the First Niagara club after the Game 5 loss.

 

[billybudd]

That's a pretty solid post Jules, but there have been two separate and independent reports today that Penguins marketing is being allowed to dictate hockey ops decisions. If that's the case, it's increasingly likely that Ray Shero's hands are tied, as would be the next GM.

That doesn't explain away his draft record, of course.

But some of these bull **** contracts? Maybe that's not on Ray.

Was Kunitz signed to that extension because Shero thought he had 5 more good seasons in him? Or was he signed to that extension because polling data said he's popular?

The latter possibility is extremely frightening.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

That's a pretty solid post Jules, but there have been two separate and independent reports today that Penguins marketing is being allowed to dictate hockey ops decisions. If that's the case, it's increasingly likely that Ray Shero's hands are tied, as would be the next GM.

That doesn't explain away his draft record, of course.

But some of these bull **** contracts? Maybe that's not on Ray.

Was Kunitz signed to that extension because Shero thought he had 5 more good seasons in him? Or was he signed to that extension because polling data said he's popular?

The latter possibility is extremely frightening.

I feel like I have a good beat on the fans at the arena and the general consensus. I don't think one fan would give a **** if Kunitz was re-signed or traded. He's not that popular.

The guys marketing would say would have some impact on the team would be 87 and 71. To a lesser extent, 58 because his hair makes all the puck bunnies happy.

Ray is the general manager of the team. All of the business operations are supposed to filter through him. I find it hard to believe he was not able to trade a player other than 87/71 without talking to the owners and someone other than the owners could impact his decisions.

Ray has just made some terrible decisions. Like signing Adams for 2 years. Re-signing Kennedy as if he were going to live up to his stats the year everyone was injured. Re-signing Scuderi to a 4 year deal when he's been drafting defenseman for years and they need playing time and so on.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

It's a shame our season is already over, and we aren't still just one win away from the conference finals.

 

[Gunnar Staal]

It's a shame our season is already over, and we aren't still just one win away from the conference finals.

I know such a shame, am I right. At least we wouldn't have to see them most likely get squashed against Boston or Chicago.

 

[KIRK]

I’m usually a lurker on these boards, but considering this is what could be another year in a long string of now predictable post-season collapses, I’ve been thinking about something. I know the media and most fans are getting on Bylsma and calling for his termination (for correct and obvious reasons), but I don’t know why more people aren’t critical of Shero’s performance as of late; More specifically, the past year. I used to be a person who respected what Shero did: He put together teams that had grit and tenacity to compliment the high-end skill, he made smart moves that helped the short- and long-term future of the club and his moves helped to bring a cup to the city once again.

But over this past year my opinion of him has soured significantly. I now openly question most personnel moves and trades anymore as they aren’t done in the spirit of improving the team but to keep the team in a sort of “cocoon†where it can continue to coast on high-end talent, but not do enough to beat the cream of the crop. Look at these moves and tell me this is what a great GM does:

- Retains Dan Bylsma and entire coaching staff after being tactically spanked by Boston (EDIT: Except Gilles Meloche)
- Gives Fleury a vote of confidence after a spectacular postseason meltdown for the second year in a row
- Resigns Craig Adams to a two-year deal (why?)
- Signs Kris Letang to massive seven-year deal that will pay him $7 million per season starting next year (if he played at his best more consistently, I’d agree with this, but more often than not this year he’s looked like Marc-Andre Bergeron. Scary thought)
- Resigns Chris Kunitz and Pascal Dupuis to four-year deals worth $3.5-$4 million per year (IMO the problem wasn’t signing one or the other. The problem was signing both, especially since I knew Dupuis was going to get vastly overpaid in the free agent market)
- Signs Rob Scuderi to four-year deal as our biggest free agent move of the year in a year where the salary cap goes down (erm… why? Don’t get me wrong, I liked Scuderi, but four years for a defenseman in his mid-30’s when your draft philosophy has been to draft puck-moving defensemen?)
- Replaces Matt Cooke with Matt D’Agostini
- Replaces Tyler Kennedy with Chuck Kobasew (Kennedy was past his expiration date here, but his replacement is a washed-up player?)
- The minor leagues are stocked with forwards with minimal upside like Ebbett, Conner, and Kostopoulos
- The opening day roster still featured Tanner Glass (why?)

As a result, I’m not surprised that the team is ending up like this. Even during the months when they were doing well, I didn’t see a team that could win the cup. All I saw was a team that was coasting on high-end talent, not a team with any sort of structure, depth, or prowess. And that’s not counting the effects that the season and personnel decisions had on the team this year:

- Oversee a majority of your top prospects and puck-moving defensemen at the AHL and ECHL level decrease in trade value (which was the main reason why you drafted so many of them. Who increased in trade value besides Olli Maataa this season: Samuelsson? Harrington? Perhaps I don’t know trade values well enough, but keeping players stuck at the AHL level when they may be ready for the NHL doesn’t exactly increase trade value)
- Witness possible stagnated development of Simon Despres, Beau Bennett and Robert Bortuzzo (Bennett was more due to injuries, but he doesn’t seem to me like a guy who’s truly ready yet. Bortuzzo was more due to waivers, but being a frequent healthy scratch doesn’t help his development. Despres just got jobbed this year)
- The team’s most promising forward prospect in the minor leagues is Brian Gibbons (nothing against Gibbons, but really?)
- Team has the worst bottom-six depth and grit since 2005/06 (I think we all harken back to the days of Rico Fata, Shane Endicott and Lasse Pirjeta. Gag.)
- The short-term answer for our bottom-six woes is a washed-up Taylor Pyatt
- Craig Adams and Tanner Glass are glorified as elite, penalty-killing defensive forwards (hence they’re always out there when the Pens are trying to protect a lead or are shorthanded)
- The only full-time players on the roster that was developed under the Shero and Bylsma tenure are Maataa and Joe Vitale (Bort and Despres were frequently healthy scratches so they really don’t count)
- Shero’s attempted big splash at the trade deadline is trying to acquire Ryan Kesler (and how does that make sense, exactly? So you put him on the third line to replace Sutter and give him the likes of Glass, Ebbett and Conner in which he hopefully becomes Jordan Staal? Thank god this didn’t go through)
- When this doesn’t go through, he does what he should’ve done anyway and decides to acquire bottom six depth (Goc and Stempniak were good pickups. The price for Goc may have been a tad too high, IMO, but I’ll definitely take that over the price we would’ve paid for Kesler)

It’s almost as if Shero has remained stubbornly loyal to a team that won the Stanley Cup in 2009 instead of trying to adapt. He continues to trade away valuable long-term pieces like high draft picks for rentals in the hopes that they will win yet another cup, but all that is going to do is destroy the team’s long-term sustainability. Do you see Boston, Chicago or Los Angeles throw away their first and second round picks year after year to try and win another cup? Nope. They have superior depth, but they seem to be smarter about it, only acquiring pieces when the price is right. Chicago’s big “move†was trading for Kris Versteeg for bottom six depth. Los Angeles got Gaborik, but they didn’t trade a first round pick for him. Boston mostly got depth in the form of Meszaros.

I don’t think Shero is going to get fired this season, since he still has his panic button in play (firing Bylsma), but this offseason is going to be very telling as to which Shero the Pens are going to get moving forward: The Shero from 2006-2009 or the Shero that has remained overly loyal to a team that won the cup five years ago.

This really is an incredible indictment at the nuts and bolts level, but if I may just add one thing to my general AMEN:

Ray Shero has never accepted, not in deed, that the unique advantage he's got over every GM in the league is Sid and Geno, and that he needs to leverage that advantage by getting both of them out there with linemates who helps them get to THEIR games (such that you've got the best line in hockey centered by the best player in hockey and then follow that with the best line in hockey centered by the best player in hockey).

Instead, Shero mitigates that advantage, giving each one leech and one guy who really shouldn't be sniffing top six duty (such that, as I like to say, I'd take Sid over Toews every day of the week but Sharp-Toews-Hossa over Kunitz-Sid-#notmalkin every day of the week and twice on Sunday). Where he SHOULD build around Sid and Geno first and then fill in the team from there, he instead builds the rest of the team and then around Sid and Geno with whatever scraps were left.

You know, I was thinking yesterday about the Pens the year Mario came back. That bottom six blew chunks. A coked up winger, Wayne ******* Primeau, and Morozov as a THIRD line? The defense? ****, I'm not sure one of them would be in this defense's top four. Moose was cool. But, let's be honest . . . THAT was a two line team. KLS and Hrdina centering Mario and Jagr. And, when the deadline came, Craig Patrick's first target was Tkachuk (didn't get him, took a scrub defenseman, but his aim was to complete that top line).

For a few years, Jagr on one line and KLS (or variations with Nedved and Titov) carried the Pens, despite their deficiencies elsewhere. Craig Patrick may have had sobriety issues, but even HE saw things clearly enough: You build around your strengths FIRST, not as an afterthought. End of the day, you may not win it all, but it gives you the best chance to go further and be most competitive.

The failure in 2008-- when the team was as close as it ever was to Sid and Geno being set up to succeed-- and the fluke of 2009-- easy opponents defensively, Datsyuk hurt for the finals-- really ******* things up for this organization, and you can see that when Ray Shero took the wrong lessons from 2010 and has been acting on them ever since.

 

[KIRK]

It's a shame our season is already over, and we aren't still just one win away from the conference finals.

So, we make the finals. And then what? Lose 4-1 to Boston or Montreal, and management celebrates the 'progress' and tells us how Dan is learning and then drafts more defensemen. Don't confuse Sid and Geno being hockey's biggest band-aids being what is with being acceptable.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I'm more or less a Shero supporter the last few years but even I can admit some good points are made here.

 

[KIRK]

I'm more or less a Shero supporter the last few years but even I can admit some good points are made here.

We forgive you. Even the Emperor was blind to Vader's impending betrayal.

 

[Darth Vitale]

We forgive you. Even the Emperor was blind to Vader's impending betrayal.

The Emperor, blinded by his hatred, has not the wisdom and force balancing properties of the Darth whose power is inspired by the all-seeing Joe Victory.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Awesome OP.

As I've said numerous times, the 2012 TDL is what changed my mind on Shero. That ****ing, "we're getting the best player in the league as out TDL acquisition" line still pisses me off.

 

[KIRK]

The Emperor, blinded by his hatred, has not the wisdom and force balancing properties of the Darth whose power is inspired by the all-seeing Joe Victory.

And yet Joey V having been given a contract by Shero blinds you to the fact that other GMs would give him a contract too. It is from there that your inexplicable acceptance of Shero's inadequacies flows.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Therrien was brought in when Craig Patrick was still the GM, so Therrien was never really Shero's guy to begin with.

Yeah, I think it went Kehoe, Olczyk, and then Therrien as the last 3 coaching decisions by Craig Patrick.

Therrien was a huge breath of fresh air mostly because Kehoe is just an assistant and not a guy that should be a head coach and Edzo was just ****. Therrien brought in an actual system and some order. Bylsma basically turned a team that had a hard ass of a teacher to having that teacher everyone likes because he likes to have classes outside and says there are no wrong answers and gives you a 20min nap time or "creative process" time to draw.

 

[KIRK]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Your overconfidence (in Shero) is your weakness.

 

[bobber]

Any GM that has Crosby in his line up and fails to protect him from the beat downs he gets doesn't deserve to be in that position. Line mates turn a blind eye to what is happening also. If I owned this team I would tar and feathers Shero and run him down the nearest dirt road. Should be a warning for the coach also who allows this crap every game.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Any GM that has Crosby in his line up and fails to protect him from the beat downs he gets doesn't deserve to be in that position. Line mates turn a blind eye to what is happening also. If I owned this team I would tar and feathers Shero and run him down the nearest dirt road. Should be a warning for the coach also who allows this crap every game.

You would also think Lemieux would remember his old playing days. He had guys here and there like McSorely but the **** with people causing problems with Lemieux didn't really stop until he had Stevens and Tocchet on his wings 24/7. If people so much as farted next to Lemieux, those guys were in people's faces ready to fight. It definitely made a difference too. Regardless if it wasn't his best statistical seasons I've never seen a line in NHL history have as many scoring chances as the Stevens - Lemieux - Tocchet line. The amount of ice those guys gave 66 was just insane.

 

[Freeptop]

I can understand Iginla sitting back and letting others be leaders. He was the new guy on the team, and I would imagine that you can't just walk into a locker room with an established leadership group and take over. Gradually yes, but I don't think a month is really long enough.

The way they used Iginla has made me wonder if Shero got him just to keep him away from other teams.

A month was plenty of time for Roberts to make an impact on the team.

It took Guerin all of about five seconds to start speaking up in the locker room when he showed up.

Iginla was believed to be another guy who could come in and have that kind of effect on the team. He didn't. That's not an indictment of Iginla, so much as an example that the Roberts and Guerin types are even more rare than people think.

That said, the leaders on this team have already won the Cup. They've already gotten those lessons from Roberts and Guerin. Why do they still need their hands held? Why do they need some outside voice to come in and be leaders? Shouldn't the leadership group on this team be capable of that themselves by now?

The worst part is that it seems like they all understand what they should be doing... until they actually get on the ice. Then they forget all the things they said before the game that they should and shouldn't do. That's on coaching, but that's also on the team leadership.

If the Pens fail tonight, Sid and Geno should be the only ones that should feel safe. I only make those two untouchable because it would be franchise-sinkingly stupid to jettison either of them. They both fall victim to "leading" the team by trying to force fancy plays and taking retaliatory penalties.

Maybe they really do need a babysitter to smack their hands when they're playing stupid. I just would have thought that they would have learned by now.

 

[Gooch]

Awesome OP.

As I've said numerous times, the 2012 TDL is what changed my mind on Shero. That ****ing, "we're getting the best player in the league as out TDL acquisition" line still pisses me off.

It's funny you mention that one because that was one of his best trade deadlines because he did the least to screw the team up long term from it. Look at what he did the following year and what we have to show from it now? The trade deadline is NOT the place you go shopping to complete your team. You shouldve had that done already via smart drafting and signing, the deadline is a sellers market where marginal talents are hideously overpriced and the actual value those players contribute in a short period of time is minimal.

 

[Gooch]

Any GM that has Crosby in his line up and fails to protect him from the beat downs he gets doesn't deserve to be in that position. Line mates turn a blind eye to what is happening also. If I owned this team I would tar and feathers Shero and run him down the nearest dirt road. Should be a warning for the coach also who allows this crap every game.

That crap has been pissing me off for a while. I wasnt really all that upset about lack of suspensions/fines for Dubinsky and Staal and the countless others in the past who have taken advantage of this. I was more pissed off about a feckless team that did absolutely nothing to stand up for their captain and best player who has a history of concussion issues.