P.Bergeron vs Gainey vs Clarke

[Filthy Dangles]

3 of the best (maybe the 3 best?) defensive forwards of all time.

How do you rank these 3 defensively and than as all-time players overall

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[streitz]

Carbonneau
Clarke
Gainey

Are all very close, not sure which is best, Clarke had the offense to match his defense aswell.

Bergeron is a few notches below.

 

[Big Phil]

Clarke no doubt is the best overall player. Hard to match that.

Overall it is a bit of a crapshoot when it comes to defensively. Was there much difference between these three? I am not necessarily saying they are the best three defensive forwards of all-time, but if they are, what really separates them? Are you at a disadvantage with any of them if you are protecting a one-goal lead? I don't think you are.

Overall, I have to say that with all due respect to Gainey, is there a case for him having the career value of Bergeron now? I think enough time has passed to show us that Bergeron is probably well on his way to the HHOF, just like Gainey was. When you throw in the overall offensive game, Gainey loses here for sure. Does Gainey's defense make up for it? I don't think it does. I think Bergeron is the better player all-time with the better career.

 

[Bluesguru]

Bobby Clarke hands down the best.

 

[Sentinel]

Defensively I'd say Gainey and Carbonneau are a bit better than Clarke and Bergeron. Overall it's clearly Clarke, then Bergeron, then Gainey and Carbonneau.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The Soviets (specifically their legendary coach Victor Tikhonov) called Bob Gainey the best player in the world in the late 1970's. That, his Conn Smythe and Selke Awards help to convince me that Gainey should not be forgotten (and still be on top). Bergeron is definitely great, and Carbonneau was too. However, I'd go Gainey - Bergie - Carbonneau.

...and yes, Clarke was better than all of them.

 

[The Macho King]

The Soviets (specifically their legendary coach Victor Tikhonov) called Bob Gainey the best player in the world in the late 1970's. That, his Conn Smythe and Selke Awards help to convince me that Gainey should not be forgotten (and still be on top). Bergeron is definitely great, and Carbonneau was too. However, I'd go Gainey - Bergie - Carbonneau.

...and yes, Clarke was better than all of them.

Sometimes coaches/players/others say stupid shit. Laviolette re: Giroux in the 2012 playoffs. Wayne Gretzky evaluating literally anyone.

Sometimes those off-the-cuff comments are tough to take seriously. And Gainey - a guy with limited offense but great defense - people may pump him up more than normal because they feel he should get more credit.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Sometimes coaches/players/others say stupid ****. Laviolette re: Giroux in the 2012 playoffs. Wayne Gretzky evaluating literally anyone.

Sometimes those off-the-cuff comments are tough to take seriously. And Gainey - a guy with limited offense but great defense - people may pump him up more than normal because they feel he should get more credit.

yeah... but I lived and breathed the Habs in the 70's. When it comes to that team, I can say that I have a lot of eye-witness knowledge. Gainey had the ability to score but totally bought into Scotty Bowman's plans for him. It was necessary to build a winner. He was skilled, he had to be to play such a role on that team. And he totally owned the Selke trophy when it came out... it was as if they created it for him. Gainey was a complete player who, like a good soldier, followed his orders diligently and became a defensive specialist.

...I just like tossing the Soviet compliment around because they were more known for selling their own system than elevating their opponents.

 

[double5son10]

Sometimes coaches/players/others say stupid ****. Laviolette re: Giroux in the 2012 playoffs. Wayne Gretzky evaluating literally anyone.

Sometimes those off-the-cuff comments are tough to take seriously. And Gainey - a guy with limited offense but great defense - people may pump him up more than normal because they feel he should get more credit.

I don't think it was a stupid comment by Tikhonov, just a misunderstood one. He never called him "the best" as in most talented but said his technique as a player was the best. Bob's hockey IQ was extraordinary, and his skating so strong that he was the best forechecker and backchecker in any given game. Gainey couldn't wow anyone with sublime skill but he could control play on the ice as well as anyone.

I don't think Gainey's game is very well understood by people who haven't watched him. Stats don't do his game any justice. For a guy that wasn't a playmaker or goal-scorer Gainey drove the play more than any checking line player, ever. He was a powerful skater and one of the fastest players in the league in his prime. His team looked to him to set the game's tempo. As Denis Potvin stated, "He took me off my game and made me play too quickly against Montreal. I don't think I played nearly as well at a Bob Gainey tempo as I did [at my own]." Comparing him to Clarke and Bergeron certainly isn't going to look good in Gainey's favor. They're both top-line centers, so of course they're more valuable, though I've seen quotes from Bowman, Dryden and Savard that Bob may have meant more to that team than anyone else. Hyperbole? Maybe, though I don't think so.
Gainey's a different beast entirely--the greatest shutdown checking line player I've ever seen. Carbonneau might be a better comparison, but again Clarke and Bergeron are top-line centers.

Anyway, if I had to choose from the OP's list I'd say Gainey was the best defensively, but I'd take Clarke as the best overall player. Talk about hockey IQ: Clarke's was off the charts.

 

[The Macho King]

So a question - Gainey also had a pretty solid two-way guy as the #1C on that team, plus the big 3 behind him. Does being the best defensive forward on a team with a ton of quality defensive players maybe make him seem better than he was?

Not making a statement - just looking to dig deeper on the guy as I haven't watched a ton of Habs games from that era.

 

[Staniowski]

Gainey was a special player. Big, strong, fast, smart. A team player. Not a very good scorer, though. Yet, he played for Canada in both the '76 and '81 Canada Cups, and played well. A very valuable player for the Habs, and captain of the '86 Cup winners.

Bobby Clarke.....Ken Dryden said that during the 1970s, only 2 players in the NHL could dominate hockey games by themselves - Bobby Orr and Bobby Clarke.

Carbonneau was, at one time, my favourite player. He was a good skater, not as fast as Gainey in a straight line, but he had more agility than Gainey. But he was just as smart as Gainey and with the same determination. He was at his best probably around the mid '80s. I always thought he deserved the Conn Smythe in '86. In the '93 finals, after game 1 in which Gretzky dominated the scoring, Carbonneau asked Demers if he could play against Gretzky head-to-head. Demers agreed and Carbonneau outplayed Gretzky, and the Habs won the next 4 games. Carbonneau was more talented with the puck than Gainey was. A pretty good scorer when he wanted to be.

Patrice Bergeron is a pleasure to watch. Has performed very well in best-on-best.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The last time the NHL sent players to the Olympics, there was only two times I was able to rest easy when Canada was in a one goal game or closer... when either Bergeron or Toews was on the ice. When they were playing, you know the other team was not going to get a chance.

 

[tony d]

I'd rank them: Clarke, Gainey, Bergeron. (From best to worst)

 

[Sentinel]

I don't think it was a stupid comment by Tikhonov, just a misunderstood one. He never called him "the best" as in most talented but said his technique as a player was the best. Bob's hockey IQ was extraordinary, and his skating so strong that he was the best forechecker and backchecker in any given game. Gainey couldn't wow anyone with sublime skill but he could control play on the ice as well as anyone.

I don't think Gainey's game is very well understood by people who haven't watched him. Stats don't do his game any justice. For a guy that wasn't a playmaker or goal-scorer Gainey drove the play more than any checking line player, ever. He was a powerful skater and one of the fastest players in the league in his prime. His team looked to him to set the game's tempo. As Denis Potvin stated, "He took me off my game and made me play too quickly against Montreal. I don't think I played nearly as well at a Bob Gainey tempo as I did [at my own]." Comparing him to Clarke and Bergeron certainly isn't going to look good in Gainey's favor. They're both top-line centers, so of course they're more valuable, though I've seen quotes from Bowman, Dryden and Savard that Bob may have meant more to that team than anyone else. Hyperbole? Maybe, though I don't think so.
Gainey's a different beast entirely--the greatest shutdown checking line player I've ever seen. Carbonneau might be a better comparison, but again Clarke and Bergeron are top-line centers.

Anyway, if I had to choose from the OP's list I'd say Gainey was the best defensively, but I'd take Clarke as the best overall player. Talk about hockey IQ: Clarke's was off the charts.

I agree with everything you said. Clarke and Bergeron are top line centers, expected to drive the play and generate offense. They were also exceptional two-way forwards who could shut down the opposing team stars when they had to. Other notable members of this elite group are Trottier, Yzerman, Fedorov, Gilmore, Sakic, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Modano. Gainey and Carbonneau are elite shutdown forwards who are not expected to generate offense. Other notable members of this club are Draper, Peca, Madden, etc. These two groups should never be mixed in with each other.

 

[Rebels57]

As far as overall player, it's not even debateable that Clarke was the best of this bunch. He's a 3-time MVP winner (7 top 6 finishes) that also won a Selke and was in the mix for several more Selke's. His two-way ability is among the best of all-time when you weigh both offense and defense.

 

[Jumptheshark]

3 of the best (maybe the 3 best?) defensive forwards of all time.

How do you rank these 3 defensively and than as all-time players overall

Clarke--Gainey







P.Berg

 

[BenchBrawl]

Just a gut feeling but I'd go with Carbonneau over all of them.And Nighbor.

Between the three in OP, Gainey.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Guy Carbonneau's last season was 99-00 with the Dallas Stars. Surprised me a bit that he was playing that late in time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As all-time players, it's easily Clarke, then Bergeron, then Gainey. Because offense matters too.

Defensively, you're just splitting hairs. Add Carbonneau and Nighbor, and you have the top 5 defensive forwards ever

 

[Sentinel]

I thought Nighbor was more two-way than just defensive. More Clarke and less Gainey. Am I wrong?

 

[billybudd]

Wayne Gretzky evaluating literally anyone.

99 throwing Kyle Turris's name out there when asked about the best player in the world was just the worst.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I thought Nighbor was more two-way than just defensive. More Clarke and less Gainey. Am I wrong?

Yes, Nighbor seems very similar to Clarke, though much less dirty