Overlooked backups/Untouchable starters

[Asheville]

Name some notable backups who you believe were never given a fair shake to become full-time starters and, conversely, starters who were given seemingly endless chances to keep the crease despite questionable play.

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[Killion]

Name some notable backups who you believe were never given a fair shake to become full-time starters and, conversely, starters who were given seemingly endless chances to keep the crease despite questionable play.

Well, interesting question, premise for a thread.... couple of different era's here, pre-1965 & the institution of the 2 goalie roster, what that brought about with respect to Starter's playing time & rotations etc, age of various mainstays through the 50's & 60's at the NHL & Minor-Pro levels (Henry, Maniago, Binkley, Wakely etc) & who they were signed with. Lack of freedom of movement during the Sponsorship Era & so on & so forth. A lot of variables, conditions & circumstances that one needs to consider. Requires some second guessing of Coaching & Management decisions made at whatever time in question with respect to whichever Goaltenders be they seasoned Vets' or guys like Bernie Parent, Dave Dryden, Phil Myre or whomever, promising Rookies who in some cases did go on to carve out HHOF careers, others having a few excellent seasons but still pretty much up & down. Doug Favell for example. Goalies need to play, they need to Start every game, get into a groove. Builds confidence, you get better obviously with the more you play, being a Backup a pretty thankless job. Better you should go play in the Minors as a Starter however with contracts being what they are, if your on a 2 way maybe not so much uh? Depends.

But sure, if we go back to the Golden Era the WHL, AHL, Central Hockey League & others absolutely chock-full of excellent Goaltenders who had they been given the opportunity & support could have replaced any of the Top 6 at the NHL level. Barely a hiccup. Thats not to take anything away from the likes of a Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Johnston, Worsley, Broda & later on Bower in Toronto but sure, loads of talent at the Minor-Pro level who when given the chance when called up due to injury did in fact displace some of these Giants of the game. Crozier in Detroit for example displacing Terry Sawchuk, who the Wings then lost to Toronto thinking they were set. Chicago thinking Dejordy was their future who as Hall's Backup did play extremely well but for a variety of reasons eventually found himself displaced as well. Vachon in Montreal. Bruce Gamble in Toronto. Those 3 (and others) coulda been Superheros' in Chicago, Montreal & Toronto respectively had they been given the Starts & full backing of the Coaching & Mgmnt of their respective teams. But history happened the way it did, and would Bruce Gamble for example have been able to have almost single handedly shutdown Bobby Hull & the Chicago Blackhawks in the Semi's the way Sawchuk did (Bowers Backup) in 67, or for that matter would Bower had he not been injured been capable of it? Gamble technically, innately, terrific reflexes, aggressive, I believe he probably could have & would have had he gotten more Starts, was ensconced as the #1... and no slight on Bower or Sawchuk.

Then theres others.... guys who got sent down, no longer the Favored Son for sometimes petty, spurious, idiotic reasons. Maybe had a few bad games. From Hero to Zero at the NHL level yet at the AHL level or wherever found their games again. Lumley, Ed Chadwick, the aforementioned Johnny Bower. Some late in life getting a Last Call & standing on their heads, stopping everything thrown at them. Some let go, sold or traded at young ages, victims of depth at the NHL level.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Hasek

spent 2 years bouncing between the minors and being a back up in Chicago. Then spent his 1st season in Buffalo as a back up before finally getting the starting job and never looking back.

 

[Killion]

Hasek

spent 2 years bouncing between the minors and being a back up in Chicago. Then spent his 1st season in Buffalo as a back up before finally getting the starting job and never looking back.

Yes, this another good example of what I was talking about above.... Gerry Cheevers another... Starred with St. Mikes.... Leaf property... plays all of about 2-3 games early through mid-60's, wins the Hap Holmes Award in the AHL in 64/65, grabbed by Boston in the Intra-League Draft for nothing... way to go Tronna..... some real astute thinking there Boys.

 

[Thenameless]

Steve Young behind Joe Montana. Oh, wrong sport.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yes, this another good example of what I was talking about above.... Gerry Cheevers another... Starred with St. Mikes.... Leaf property... plays all of about 2-3 games early through mid-60's, wins the Hap Holmes Award in the AHL in 64/65, grabbed by Boston in the Intra-League Draft for nothing... way to go Tronna..... some real astute thinking there Boys.

yeah but the Bruins turned right around and lost Parent the same way

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I read in a Marty Brodeur biography.....and maybe some of the Devils peeps can comment (Blood Gin, TheDevilMadeMe), Mike Dunham in 96-97 had a good go of it for the Devils while Brodeur was out...I remember Dunham being in Nashville too, so maybe he actually became the starter when the franchise was founded (before Tomas Vokoun?). Another one a bit before my time, and I don't know if he ever demanded to be traded, but Bryan Hayward in Montreal I remember hearing/reading went through very solid stretches.

 

[Killion]

yeah but the Bruins turned right around and lost Parent the same way

... indeed so... however it wasnt really until Bernie got to play with his childhood hero Jacques Plante in Toronto that he became the Complete Goalie who backstopped the Flyers to their 2 Cups... and of course Toronto as well losing Parent before that happens.... then of course, you guys, the Bruins, acquire Plante himself from Toronto late in the 72/73 season, recording a Shutout in his first game with Boston, playing extremely well, Sinden thinking his Goaltending woes were over, Cheevers having jumped to the WHA... then when he finally does return... breaks the Goaltenders Code, lets Dave Reece hang for it in his first game back the Mangy Dog....

... but I digress... back to Jacques.... Plante however received a 10yr 10 Million Dollar offer to Coach & Manage the WHA Nordiques & promptly Retired... only to find he couldnt stand it, coming out of Retirement yet again for the start of the 74/75 season & signing with Edmonton also of the WHA.... Had to get setup with new pads etc as well. When he Retired from Boston, asked Harry Sinden to have his equipment shipped to him which Harry had promised to do.... embittered, feeling "put out", he never actually did, claiming the shipper mustve lost them in transit... You guys wind up with Gilbert, Broderick... the inimitable Ross Brooks.... serves you right, messin with Jake the Snake's equipment. Karma can be a real B***h huh Toughguy?... oh... and say, enjoy that game from Tronna lastnight? Ha? Who does that? Skate on their throats & you let them up?

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Gilles Villemure was an excellent backup with the Rangers in the 1970s, splitting time with Ed Giacomin. Between 1970-71 and 1972-73, Villemure went 66–27–10 with a save percentage above .910. New York's defense in that era was stellar but those are still impressive numbers.

But he never really got a chance to be a #1 – by the time he started playing more games than Giacomin in 1974-'75 he was already 34 and at the tail end of his career. Then he gets shipped to Chicago and is buried behind Tony Esposito and barely saw any action after that.

He did get a few games in the 1972 finals when Giacomin's knee was acting up and seems to have played quite well, though obviously not well enough to win the Cup.

-----

In the 1990s, Steve Shields always struck me as an underrated career backup. He did get one year as a starter with San Jose before Nabokov took over and even won a round against St. Louis, though I don't remember that series at all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

... indeed so... however it wasnt really until Bernie got to play with his childhood hero Jacques Plante in Toronto that he became the Complete Goalie who backstopped the Flyers to their 2 Cups... and of course Toronto as well losing Parent before that happens.... then of course, you guys, the Bruins, acquire Plante himself from Toronto late in the 72/73 season, recording a Shutout in his first game with Boston, playing extremely well, Sinden thinking his Goaltending woes were over, Cheevers having jumped to the WHA... then when he finally does return... breaks the Goaltenders Code, lets Dave Reece hang for it in his first game back the Mangy Dog....

... but I digress... back to Jacques.... Plante however received a 10yr 10 Million Dollar offer to Coach & Manage the WHA Nordiques & promptly Retired... only to find he couldnt stand it, coming out of Retirement yet again for the start of the 74/75 season & signing with Edmonton also of the WHA.... Had to get setup with new pads etc as well. When he Retired from Boston, asked Harry Sinden to have his equipment shipped to him which Harry had promised to do.... embittered, feeling "put out", he never actually did, claiming the shipper mustve lost them in transit... You guys wind up with Gilbert, Broderick... the inimitable Ross Brooks.... serves you right, messin with Jake the Snake's equipment. Karma can be a real B***h huh Toughguy?... oh... and say, enjoy that game from Tronna lastnight? Ha? Who does that? Skate on their throats & you let them up?

haha, yup...there was a lot of odd goalie movement back then.

Just really stings to look back as a Bruins fan and know you had the 2 goalies that directly stopped the 70s/Orr Bruins from being one of the all time dynasties.

Dryden cost them 70, 77, 78, 79 and Parent cost them 74.

70 and 74 definitely cost them Cups. that 70-71 Bruins team was an all time wagon and would've steamrolled the Hawks. And 1974 was a SCF matchup.

1970-71 hurts the most, by far.

The Bruins that year had:

- the top 4 scorers in the NHL (Espo, Orr, Bucyk, Hodge), and 6 of the top 10
- 3 of the top 4 goal scorers (Espo, Bucyk, Hodge)
- the top 5 assists and 6 of the top 7 (Orr, Espo, Bucyk, Hodge, Cashman, Stanfield)
- top 6 in +/- and 11 of the top 13
- scored 399 goals...108 more than 2nd place
- +192 goal differential
- 57-14-7, 121 pts, President's Trophy by 12 pts

I'd put them up as the best regular season team of all time

 

[Killion]

^^^ Yeah, theres another really good Goalie who found himself hard up against it in NY behind Giacomin, Esposito in Chicago. Villemure had talent, Standup, like Giacomin a "Wanderer" helping out his Defence in clearing pucks. Spent the entire decade of the 60's unable to crack the NHL & not because he wasnt capable or good enough, but because he was down on the depth chart, a card or three back from the top of the pack, too valuable to trade, minor pro team needed him.... He was a lifelong "horse guy" as well, from his early days in Trois Rivieres PQ. Harness Racing, Trotters. Owned them, trained them. Did so through his playing career & for many years after.

 

[quoipourquoi]

In the 1990s, Steve Shields always struck me as an underrated career backup. He did get one year as a starter with San Jose before Nabokov took over and even won a round against St. Louis, though I don't remember that series at all.

Took 1997 Buffalo to the second round with 124 saves on 132 shots (.939) against Ottawa too. Had the misfortune of coming in cold to a 2-2 series against Colorado in 1999 when the Sharks wanted to give Vernon a night off, but he had definitely earned the increased responsibility given to him the next year.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Took 1997 Buffalo to the second round with 124 saves on 132 shots (.939) against Ottawa too. Had the misfortune of coming in cold to a 2-2 series against Colorado in 1999 when the Sharks wanted to give Vernon a night off, but he had definitely earned the increased responsibility given to him the next year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, was Hasek out due to an injury or choking reporter Jim Kelley?

 

[Iapyi]

I've always thought Kari Lehtonen was not NHL starter material who for some odd reason kept getting chance after chance and basically failed every single time.

 

[Asheville]

I've always thought Kari Lehtonen was not NHL starter material who for some odd reason kept getting chance after chance and basically failed every single time.

Agreed, and I feel similarly about Cam Ward.

Just as Lehtonen has gained a living off the "drafted 2nd overall" reputation, same goes for Ward's rookie season Smythe. At least Bill Ranford, who would be a great nominee for this thread, has MVPs from three different tournaments of significance. Ward, though, has finished a season with a save percentage of 0.920 or better exactly one time in his career, which is jarring for a netminder who has shouldered a No. 1's workload for roughly a decade's worth. IMO a large reason for the Hurricanes going downhill for the 12 years since winning the '05 Cup has been their ad nauseum commitment to Ward.

Jamie Storr, on the other hand, is a goalie that was completely mismanaged and never invested in properly. He posted stellar numbers straight out of juniors behind some incredibly irresponsible Kings defenses, yet after being given little more than a 1A role at the very young age of 24 & 25, the franchise effectively quit on him, despite being statistically superior to Fiset/Dafoe in both seasons and dealing with Geoff Courtnall's classy move. Even after bringing in Felix Potvin due to lack of faith in Storr, Jamie outplayed him statistically both as Felix's backup and in his final season as 1B. This seemingly long-standing distrust of Storr still makes me wonder why Dave Taylor didn't draft Roberto Luongo 3rd overall in '97 as his first order of business as new Kings general manager, having been hired for the role less than 2 months earlier, and be done with the Storr experiment, especially since Jamie wasn't "his" guy.

On a related note, I have no idea why Storr was not afforded the same patience given to Kelly Hrudey (and later, Byron Dafoe and Stephanie Fiset, to lesser extents) and why Kings fans had to suffer through Hrudey for so long as Hrudey was a huge reason why Gretzky's effort were for naught during his time in Los Angeles. Six straight seasons of dog shit goaltending despite largely great offensive support.