Ovechkin vs Moore revisited

[raleh]

I know we've discussed this before, but now it's a year later. Are we yet willing to say that Ovechkin has passed Moore on an all time LW list? Or does he still have to win a cup or two? I think this is one of the more interesting ones because of Moore's very short peak. I think that, taking only regular season into account, the only way Moore can still be considered ahead of him is if you put a lot of weight on his "merely good" seasons he had before and after his peak. Let's say Moore's peak was, loosely speaking, the years of the five cups in a row.

Moore
Hart: 0
Art Ross: 1958, 1959
First Team All Star: 1958, 1959
Second Team All Star: 1961 (not in the cup years, but it exists)
Richard: 1958 (runner up to line mate Beliveau in '59)
Assist Leader: 1959

Ovechkin
Hart: 2008, 2009
Art Ross: 2008
First Team All Star: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
Second Team All Star: N/A
Richard: 2008, 2009
Assist Leader: 0

Ovechkin won the Pearson in 2008 and 2009 but the trophy didn't exist during Moore's prime. It's hard to think the players would have voted for him over a pretty close to peaked Gordie Howe, but at the same time, Ovechkin has not had to deal with guys at the Howe/Beliveau level in his career.

However, I think it's pretty hard to argue the fact that Ovechkin has already surpassed Moore in peak value. And since peak value is really all Moore brings to the table, is it not fair to say Ovechkin is better than him? And therefore likely a top 100 player?

Moore's intangibles don't really lift him above Ovechkin either, because Ovie is IMO a better leader and sparkplug type player than Moore was. He is as determined to win as Moore, but we don't know what his pain threshold is yet. The only thing we have to go on is the fact that he didn't finish the game at the 2005 WJC; a game Moore certainly would have finished.

What's the verdict? Can we safely say that Ovechkin is ahead of Moore and chasing down a top 3 LW of all time spot?

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

Good question. I'm someone who penalizes Moore more than most for his lack of recognition as one of the league's five most valuable players during his career (he was 5th in hart voting once) It's not that I penalize him, per se, but I do credit those who were viewed as more valuable. Also, he had such a short peak. I have him around 90th all-time.

I also am not one to just instantly dub one O6 player a better "playoff performer" or "winner" than a modern player when he had a built-in 5X advantage in probability of winning the cup. (10X if the O6 player was a hab) I'd rather look deeper into the matter and view things relatively.

Still, I would be hesitant to place Ovechkin ahead of Moore just yet. Career value still means something. What did Ovechkin do in his 6th-best season? Oh, right. He hasn't had a 6th season. Moore, on the other hand, was a contributing member of an excellent team in his 6th and 7th-best seasons, and was still good enough two more seasons in the top-20 for both goals and assists. He also had a better two-way game than Ovechkin.

On the other hand, In Ovechkin's two best seasons so far, I think he has been more dominant and valuable than Moore ever was. Overall at this point, I think Moore contributed more value. but it's close.

 

[arrbez]

I rank him ahead by now. At the very least he'll have his fifth straight 1st team allstar selection by the end of the year. In all likelyhood, he'll have another Richard trophy, and it's pretty likely he'll nab the Art Ross as well. This season is actually far and away the highest PPG of his career. He's scoring at a 60+ goal, 130+ point pace, which is miles ahead of anyone else in the league.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Many thought that Moore was actually the most dangerous Habs forward on those 50's dynasty teams. But alas, poor health did him in.

This is Ovechkin's 5th straight elite season. Based on that, I'd give him the edge on Moore, who had just 3.

 

[canucks4ever]

I don't put much stock into Ovechkin's first all star team selection in 2007, that was based on no competition. He didn't even crack the top 10 that year, however he will move ahead of dickie moore very soon. A couple playoff runs will seal the deal.

 

[lextune]

I rank him ahead by now. At the very least he'll have his fifth straight 1st team allstar selection by the end of the year. In all likelyhood, he'll have another Richard trophy, and it's pretty likely he'll nab the Art Ross as well. This season is actually far and away the highest PPG of his career. He's scoring at a 60+ goal, 130+ point pace, which is miles ahead of anyone else in the league.

Those are two pretty bold assumptions in my opinion, it's not like he is running away with either race.....

....that being said he will almost certainly be in the top 3 to 5 in both categories. And that is good enough for me to already rank him ahead at this point.

 

[arrbez]

Those are two pretty bold assumptions in my opinion, it's not like he is running away with either race....

Due only to him having played 8 or so fewer games than everyone else. He's currently one goal back of the Richard and one point back of the Art Ross, and scoring at a considerably higher pace than anyone else in both categories. If we had to pick a favourite at this point in the season, he's my vote.

 

[arrbez]

I don't put much stock into Ovechkin's first all star team selection in 2007, that was based on no competition. He didn't even crack the top 10 that year, however he will move ahead of dickie moore very soon. A couple playoff runs will seal the deal.

Dickie Moore only had to beat Camille Henry for one of his selections. Sometimes the superstar competition just isn't there...doesn't mean they didn't have a good season.

 

[nik jr]

Dickie Moore only had to beat Camille Henry for one of his selections. Sometimes the superstar competition just isn't there...doesn't mean they didn't have a good season.

LW was not the strongest in the '50s.


2nd AS LW

'50: leswick
'51: sid smith
'52: sid smith
'53: olmstead
'54: sanford
'55: lewicki
'56: olmstead
'57: chevrefils
'58: henry
'59: delvecchio
'60: prentice

but LW became very strong in the '60s.

 

[Big Phil]

Moore won 6 Cups but let's not underestimate the contribution he made to those championships. Moore was stellar in that dynasty. Throw in his back to back Art Ross Trophies and it's hard to put Ovechkin ahead of him yet despite the relatively short peak of Moore. In total Moore played 12 seasons. Plus bits of two others later in the '60s. He also led the playoffs in points twice.

Has Ovechkin done enough in less than 5 years to surpass a legit HHOFer whose career was 12 seasons? Not yet in my mind.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Premature

The comparison is significantly premature. Let Ovechkin play a full career and then we will start comparing him to retired greats.

As things stand Ovechkin is developing playmaking skills that may approach those of Dickie Moore. Also Ovechkin has a long way to go defensively before he may be considered Dickie Moore's equal. Moore could be relied on to play the top right wingers - Howe, Bathgate,etc on the opposing team and pressure the defensemen. Ovechkin has not reached this stage - nor is he asked to play against the contemporary top right wingers.

So far the only comparisons are the offensive numbers. Far from a complete picture regarding the make-up of great players.

 

[MXD]

Well... It's safe to say that Moore will be a better 2nd best forward on a team than Ovie could ever be a 2nd best forward on a team.

I don't know if there are points for that, though.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Moore won 6 Cups but let's not underestimate the contribution he made to those championships. Moore was stellar in that dynasty. Throw in his back to back Art Ross Trophies and it's hard to put Ovechkin ahead of him yet despite the relatively short peak of Moore. In total Moore played 12 seasons. Plus bits of two others later in the '60s. He also led the playoffs in points twice.

Has Ovechkin done enough in less than 5 years to surpass a legit HHOFer whose career was 12 seasons? Not yet in my mind.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. As far as regular season value goes, I'd probably give the nod to Ovechkin after this season, but that's only half the battle. Moore's playoff resume still dwarfs Ovechkin's. He hasn't yet had the opportunities that Moore had, but you can't discount being a key member of a dynasty. I'd at least like to see one dominant playoff run before I start thinking about Ovechkin in my top 100 list. He'll certainly get there regardless, as the regular season dominance will become too much to ignore after a couple more seasons, but right now he falls short.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well... It's safe to say that Moore will be a better 2nd best forward on a team than Ovie could ever be a 2nd best forward on a team.

I don't know if there are points for that, though.

This is true. That was AO's weakness I thought in the ATD - his game is to take every shot on his line. So I'm not sure if he's the right guy to not be the best on his line.

 

[Reds4Life]

Of course. Ovechkin is the top3 player in the league, maybe even the best for several years now. Something Moore can only dream about.

 

[arrbez]

Due only to him having played 8 or so fewer games than everyone else. He's currently one goal back of the Richard and one point back of the Art Ross, and scoring at a considerably higher pace than anyone else in both categories. If we had to pick a favourite at this point in the season, he's my vote.

As of last night, he's now leading the league in both categories

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hockey Not Golf

Of course. Ovechkin is the top3 player in the league, maybe even the best for several years now. Something Moore can only dream about.

Overlooking that the sport is hockey not golf.

All the greats that never played on a Stanley Cup winning team would gladly trade places with Moore not Ovechkin - been there, done that except for a Stanley Cup.

 

[seventieslord]

Overlooking that the sport is hockey not golf.

All the greats that never played on a Stanley Cup winning team would gladly trade places with Moore not Ovechkin - been there, done that except for a Stanley Cup.

If you played for the Habs in the 1950s or 1960s... you had to really try to not win a cup... and you'd still fail at that endeavor.

Winning a cup is important, it's the ultimate goal, but comparing Dickie Moore to, say, Joe Mullen, and saying automatically that the difference in cups makes him a bigger winner or big-game player without digging deeper is far too simplistic.

As it applies to Ovechkin right now, no, he hasn't established a better playoff resume than Moore at this point, but it won't take 5 cups to do it either. Heck, in a 30-team league, I'd be satisfied with one cup and 3-4 other very strong playoff runs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Frankly.................

If you played for the Habs in the 1950s or 1960s... you had to really try to not win a cup... and you'd still fail at that endeavor.

Winning a cup is important, it's the ultimate goal, but comparing Dickie Moore to, say, Joe Mullen, and saying automatically that the difference in cups makes him a bigger winner or big-game player without digging deeper is far too simplistic.

As it applies to Ovechkin right now, no, he hasn't established a better playoff resume than Moore at this point, but it won't take 5 cups to do it either. Heck, in a 30-team league, I'd be satisfied with one cup and 3-4 other very strong playoff runs.

Frankly Ovechkin has not established much. In 1959 Dickie Moore won his second consecutive scoring title while setting a record for points -96 in a season that was not broken for seven seasons. His record of 96 points at that time surpassed Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau's seasonal point totals. Howe and Beliveau are consensus top 10 players. Has Ovechkin accomplished anything of this magnitude? No he has not.He has not even managed to string together two Art Ross trophies or come close to seasonal point or goal records.

When Dickie Moore won his two Art Ross Trophies there were exactly zero 18, 19, 20 year old defensemen in the NHL. How many 18-20 year old defensemen are/were playing in the NHL during Ovechkin's "NHL career", easily 10. Dickie Moore was facing HHOF caliber goaltenders in at least 75% of the games he played. Ovechkin faces HHOF caliber goaltenders maybe 20 games a season.

Again let's see what Ovechkin does over a career. Right know he is having a battle with Henrik Sedin for the scoring title. Not exactly Howe, Beliveau type competition.

 

[overpass]

Did Ovechkin lose a year to the lockout? He could have played that year, but I don't remember if he would have come over if not for the lockout. If he played that year he'd be in his sixth NHL season now. Even if you don't consider what-ifs at all you might consider his play for Dynamo Moscow.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Ovechkin has likely already guaranteed himself a hall of fame induction. After this season he will probably have 3 hart trophies, 3 pearson trophies, 3 richard trophies, 2 art ross trophies and possibly a cup/conn smythe. That is just something that you can't keep out of the hall regardless of career length.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Frankly Ovechkin has not established much. In 1959 Dickie Moore won his second consecutive scoring title while setting a record for points -96 in a season that was not broken for seven seasons. His record of 96 points at that time surpassed Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau's seasonal point totals. Howe and Beliveau are consensus top 10 players. Has Ovechkin accomplished anything of this magnitude? No he has not.He has not even managed to string together two Art Ross trophies or come close to seasonal point or goal records.

Some of your points are okay. Others, are no good at all. Obviously Ovechkin is not going to challenge for the all time scoring title. Moore would not be challenging for it either had he played after the high scoring 80's.

Ovechkin's 65 goals was ridiculous given that the next closest guy only had 52 goals, and Ovechkin's totals in general would translate well to the late 50's.

In either case, you are putting too much emphasis on the fact that he broke Howe's scoring record by 1 point, when in fact, scoring was much lower when Howe set the record.

When Dickie Moore won his two Art Ross Trophies there were exactly zero 18, 19, 20 year old defensemen in the NHL. How many 18-20 year old defensemen are/were playing in the NHL during Ovechkin's "NHL career", easily 10. Dickie Moore was facing HHOF caliber goaltenders in at least 75% of the games he played. Ovechkin faces HHOF caliber goaltenders maybe 20 games a season.

These are some of the points I do like a bit. But the other points of a much larger talent pool to draw from in Ovechkin's erawill likely come up.

Again let's see what Ovechkin does over a career. Right know he is having a battle with Henrik Sedin for the scoring title. Not exactly Howe, Beliveau type competition.

This attempt to discredit Ovechkin's current pace is downright wrong. He is facing Crosby, Thornton, Malkin, etc etc, and Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin both have shots at becoming top 10 all time players themselves. Not exactly shrubs

Henrik Sedin is having a career year. Using his current excellent play as an attempt to degrade Ovechkin would be like claiming Lach's Scoring title win over Buddy Connor should be devalued since Connor was not a regular scoring threat.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some of your points are okay. Others, are no good at all. Obviously Ovechkin is not going to challenge for the all time scoring title. Moore would not be challenging for it either had he played after the high scoring 80's.

Ovechkin's 65 goals was ridiculous given that the next closest guy only had 52 goals, and Ovechkin's totals in general would translate well to the late 50's.

In either case, you are putting too much emphasis on the fact that he broke Howe's scoring record by 1 point, when in fact, scoring was much lower when Howe set the record.


These are some of the points I do like a bit. But the other points of a much larger talent pool to draw from in Ovechkin's erawill likely come up.


This attempt to discredit Ovechkin's current pace is downright wrong. He is facing Crosby, Thornton, Malkin, etc etc, and Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin both have shots at becoming top 10 all time players themselves. Not exactly shrubs

Henrik Sedin is having a career year. Using his current excellent play as an attempt to degrade Ovechkin would be like claiming Lach's Scoring title win over Buddy Connor should be devalued since Connor was not a regular scoring threat.....

When Howe had 95 points he had 49 goals and his margin over the runner-up in terms of points and goals was comparable if not greater than Ovechkin's margin you mention yet a few years later Moore topped Howe's point total.

Trust you mean Buddy O'Connor. Hard to say since on the way to training camp the following summer Buddy O'Connor and other Rangers were involved in a serious car accident that diminished his career. Further illustrating the fragility of a career and the folly of rushing to bestow honours before they are earned.

Shrubs? Scrubs perhaps. If they become top ten players. Until then let's not get carried away. The reckless elements in Ovechkin's game have to be eliminated otherwise the career may take a significant detour.

 

[seventieslord]

Frankly Ovechkin has not established much. In 1959 Dickie Moore won his second consecutive scoring title while setting a record for points -96 in a season that was not broken for seven seasons. His record of 96 points at that time surpassed Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau's seasonal point totals. Howe and Beliveau are consensus top 10 players. Has Ovechkin accomplished anything of this magnitude? No he has not.He has not even managed to string together two Art Ross trophies or come close to seasonal point or goal records.

Ovechkin's 63-goal season is considered one of the most impressive seasons for goalscoring, ever.

And really, it depends what you mean by magnitude. because even when Moore set a points record, Hart voters considered him the 5th-most valuable player in the NHL. Which is quite curious. And probably more important than just looking at raw goal or point totals, as I'm sure you'd be first to admit.

Remember, Ovechkin has 100 years of history to beat when it comes to seasonal records, Moore had 40-50 years to top. There should be little doubt that Ovechkin is already better than Moore ever was. The only question is, after five seasons, has he provided more career value than Moore did, when Moore's "merely good" seasons and playoffs are considered?

When Dickie Moore won his two Art Ross Trophies there were exactly zero 18, 19, 20 year old defensemen in the NHL. How many 18-20 year old defensemen are/were playing in the NHL during Ovechkin's "NHL career", easily 10. Dickie Moore was facing HHOF caliber goaltenders in at least 75% of the games he played. Ovechkin faces HHOF caliber goaltenders maybe 20 games a season.

It works both ways, bud. Smaller league = higher percentage of HHOFers to play against = higher percentage of HHOFers to play with. And as a Hab, I'm pretty sure this benefitted Moore more than if he played on another team.

Again let's see what Ovechkin does over a career. Right know he is having a battle with Henrik Sedin for the scoring title. Not exactly Howe, Beliveau type competition.

His career doesn't necessarily have to be finished, or ten years long. At some point, whether his career is over or not, there will be a time where we can all agree, "ok, Ovechkin has now done more than Moore." I don't know that we're there yet, but apparently, most people think we are.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

This is true. That was AO's weakness I thought in the ATD - his game is to take every shot on his line. So I'm not sure if he's the right guy to not be the best on his line.

He's gotten a lot better this year.