Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[PaulD]

This is the truth:

2018 first - Alexeyev (regular on defense)
2019 first - McMichael (top line center)
2020 first - Lapierre (looks absolutely incredible)
2022 first - Miroschinenko (strong kid, huge shot)

Carberry has blended old and young.

Pens with Sid won 3 Cups. 4 Finals.

Caps with OV took 13 years to get past second round. Won one Cup OVs 13th season.

Good pay off for Pens Ide say.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The Pens have traded away 8 of their 12 previous first round draft picks during the Crosby era.

Then Pens fans parrot memes claiming the Capitals have sacrificed everything to get Ovechkin the goals record.

Meanwhile the Capitals have largely kept their first round draft picks and now they have young cheap depth on the roster with more on the way.

Of course now that the Penguins are scorched Earth, all the Crosby fans want Sid to jump ship.

Sometimes I wonder where people get the audacity to paint with such broad strokes.

Pens won 3 Cups by prioritizing playoff runs over draft picks. No ragrets.

 

[Toby91ca]

The Pens have traded away 8 of their 12 previous first round draft picks during the Crosby era.

Then Pens fans parrot memes claiming the Capitals have sacrificed everything to get Ovechkin the goals record.

Meanwhile the Capitals have largely kept their first round draft picks and now they have young cheap depth on the roster with more on the way.

Of course now that the Penguins are scorched Earth, all the Crosby fans want Sid to jump ship.

Not sure why there is a PIT comparison here....but par for the course I guess. To be fair though, not that I necessarily agree, but I understand the thinking of some of the vocal parties. I think people look at WSH and see OV playing more min than anyone, playing 2 min every powerplay and not moving around the nice that much, etc. and suggesting WSH cares nothing more than simply getting OV a goals record. Reality is, they are in a down phase now towards the end of his career, they need to rebuild and are saving assets (picks) to do that rebuild. Could they give other players more ice time, younger players and help them win more games? I don't know, but unlikely, they are probably at the point that other guys aren't ready yet and it would be the dumbest thing in the world to cut opportunities to a guy so close to the goals record because someone thought they could have a better chance to win. 1) I doubt they'd have any better chance if giving others opportunities just because of personnel they have and 2) even if they did, at what benefit....win 1 or 2 more games at the cost of hurting OV's chance at record? It might be different if OV was sitting at 600 goals, but doubt it would, keep pushing him until he's done or until it's obvious others can take the lead....they aren't there yet.

In terms of PIT, it's totally different. They have mortgaged a bit of their future over the years, but that happens most of the time with very good teams going for championships....it made sense and paid off. Even recently, they missed the playoffs last year, but many though they shouldn't have, they stumbled against very bad teams near the end.....but that should have been a sign as well. Crosby is still very competitive, but they simply don't have enough good young players. I think bringing in Karlsson was a HUGE mistake. Anyway, I think the difference was PIT making moves to try and stay competitive and win, but people making the decisions, in my mind, weren't thinking clearly enough.

 

[Dingo]

can we talk about Ovechkin in this thread?

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Sometimes I wonder where people get the audacity to paint with such broad strokes.

Pens won 3 Cups by prioritizing playoff runs over draft picks. No ragrets.

The Pens were gifted Crosby by the league after rigging the draft. How many cups would have Ovechkin won had the caps been gifted a Stamkos or Kane ?

 

[BallardEra]

Really though? 30 goals would still be "much less" than we anticipated/hoped for? I guess it seems low on the surface, but at some point we need to consider reality as well, he's getting older and slowing down, he simply wont' score at the same rate and the slow down isn't usually gradual and sometimes you'll see dips and then increases and sometimes you'll see drastic drops that never come back, etc. Either way, scoring 40 goals at 37 doesn't make me confident he scores 40 again at 38, etc. Would it shock me? No, but thinking logically about it.....where he was tracking earlier this year was a bit of a shock, very significant drop....but I wouldn't necessarily have been comfortable putting a significant monetary bet down that he would hit 30 this year. Like always, guys do get hot....so 13 goals in last 21 games is a very good hot streak, but not the type of pace he's going to keep for a full season anymore.

Great points but something was clearly bothering him during that 8 goals in 43 games start to the season.

He looked like a totally different player just before and after the ASB.

 

[Kuz]

Not sure why there is a PIT comparison here....but par for the course I guess. To be fair though, not that I necessarily agree, but I understand the thinking of some of the vocal parties. I think people look at WSH and see OV playing more min than anyone, playing 2 min every powerplay and not moving around the nice that much, etc. and suggesting WSH cares nothing more than simply getting OV a goals record. Reality is, they are in a down phase now towards the end of his career, they need to rebuild and are saving assets (picks) to do that rebuild. Could they give other players more ice time, younger players and help them win more games? I don't know, but unlikely, they are probably at the point that other guys aren't ready yet and it would be the dumbest thing in the world to cut opportunities to a guy so close to the goals record because someone thought they could have a better chance to win. 1) I doubt they'd have any better chance if giving others opportunities just because of personnel they have and 2) even if they did, at what benefit....win 1 or 2 more games at the cost of hurting OV's chance at record? It might be different if OV was sitting at 600 goals, but doubt it would, keep pushing him until he's done or until it's obvious others can take the lead....they aren't there yet.

In terms of PIT, it's totally different. They have mortgaged a bit of their future over the years, but that happens most of the time with very good teams going for championships....it made sense and paid off. Even recently, they missed the playoffs last year, but many though they shouldn't have, they stumbled against very bad teams near the end.....but that should have been a sign as well. Crosby is still very competitive, but they simply don't have enough good young players. I think bringing in Karlsson was a HUGE mistake. Anyway, I think the difference was PIT making moves to try and stay competitive and win, but people making the decisions, in my mind, weren't thinking clearly enough.

Its not like Ovechkin plays that much either. Capitals give most lines decent minutes. Ovechkin averages 1 minute less of ice time then Crosby. Kuznetsov had the second most time (24 second less than Ovi) while he was a Caps and he was horrible. Young guys are coming up, but they still rely most of the minutes on the older guys so far which is probably wise to not overwork the young guys yet. Top 5 are: Ovi, Kuznetsov, Wilson, Strome and Oshie. Its not like Ovi is the only veteran getting minutes.

 

[Toby91ca]

That's an interesting take. Wrong, but interesting.

It's certainly not "wrong" - I don't agree with it, but OV isn't "factually" the best goal scorer of all time and never will be, it's a matter of opinion and no matter how much of a majority share that opinion, it won't make it factual.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The Pens have also 3 Cups to show for it… The Capitals won’t ever win 3 Cups…

Speaking in absolutes is a great way to make a fool of yourself some day, you don’t know what the future could hold for them.

Congrats on the cups though.

 

[george14]

The thing is that you can compare one single attribute of goalscoring, and Ovechkin is usually up there at that top of the attribute, whereas these other guys dont.

When Ovechkin finishes his career, he'll have the following on his resume:
-> Most times leading the league in goals (a dominant lead as well on the field, especially when considering that the only person with 7 times to Ovi's 9 did it with a Canadian-only league).
-> Most times leading the league in goals/gp
-> Most adjusted goals (and likely a solid lead at that too)
-> 1st or 2nd in raw goals
-> One of the highest adjusted-goal scoring seasons of all-time

If you take all of the different ways you could assess who the greatest goal scorer of all-time is, Ovechkin is either #1 or right at the top in every conceivable metric.

All great points. I have no issue with people calling Ovi the greatest goal scorer. I think Mario has a strong claim as he retired due to cancer and likely would have smashed the record. But we shall see. Ovi no doubt has a claim.

 

[Toby91ca]

The Pens were gifted Crosby by the league after rigging the draft.

Can you elaborate a bit more or are you just throwing out a completely wild claim that has absolutely no shred of actual reality?

 

[WarriorofTime]

18 year old Connor Bedard and 38 year old Alexander Ovechkin both sit at 21 goals on the season. Who do you think ends the season with more?

 

[BallardEra]

Since January 27th, Ovechkin has 13 goals in 21 games and 23 points.

He has the 4th most goals and 15th most points in the league since that date

 

[gtrower]

Not sure why there is a PIT comparison here....

He says before writing a novel talking about the Pens in an Ovi Milestone thread…

The OP in this spinoff made a comment about how three months ago people (predominantly pens fans) were spamming this thread with posts about how the Caps were shamelessly pushing for the goal record at the expense of the franchise. This was proven to be comically opposite from the truth and he took a victory lap.

It would be great if we could return to the topic of the thread now though.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

18 year old Connor Bedard and 38 year old Alexander Ovechkin both sit at 21 goals on the season. Who do you think ends the season with more?

Ovi

 

[WarriorofTime]

Pens with Sid won 3 Cups. 4 Finals.

Caps with OV took 13 years to get past second round. Won one Cup OVs 13th season.

Good pay off for Pens Ide say.

but the Caps have the more recent Cup so what does traded draft picks amongst current waiver-exempt players have to do with that? On the topic of what Midnight Judges was referring to I mean (i.e., who is "ruining their future for the sake of their old legend"?) The number of Cups in career is more so a history lesson, neither team has won a Cup or even a playoff series in a long time.

 

[Toby91ca]

He says before writing a novel talking about the Pens in an Ovi Milestone thread…

The OP in this spinoff made a comment about how three months ago people (predominantly pens fans) were spamming this thread with posts about how the Caps were shamelessly pushing for the goal record at the expense of the franchise. This was proven to be comically opposite from the truth and he took a victory lap.

It would be great if we could return to the topic of the thread now though.

Right.....my point was that I wasn't sure why there is the comparison, to which I wrote a lot to show that the situations are not comparable.....

Like I said, I didn't agree with the narrative, but understood why they were saying it. The comparison thing, I'm jumping in here because there is no got ya moment here were one fan base suggests a team is doing something (negative stance) while they are completely wrong and it's actually their team that is doing that thing...which would be pretty funny and ironic, but not the case. I agree that PIT management is doing stupid things, but completely different stupid things than what some PIT fans have been claiming the CAPs have been doing.

 

[Video Nasty]

That's an interesting take. Wrong, but interesting.

The thing about Lemieux is, he has neither this highest goal scoring season of his era, or the highest adjusted goal scoring season of his era, or the highest GPG season of his era, or the highest adjusted GPG of his era.

Ovechkin has all 4.

In fact Ovechkin had a higher adjusted GPG than Lemieux, and he carried it through hundreds more games than Mario could.

And despite missing half a career's worth of games, Lemieux still didn't lead the NHL in GPG as many times as Ovie has.

And Ovechkin's peak goal scoring season is at least even with Lemieux's.

The one area where Lemieux has an advantage is playoff GPG. Aside from that - peak, prime, longevity, volume, -taken together Ovechkin has Lemieux soundly beaten.

Here's a bunch of data. Nobody has a better case for greatest goal scorer than Ovechkin, and it's not particularly close at this point.

View attachment 838119

Yet Lemieux was still greater.

 

[Acallabeth]

I'm actually starting to expect a much better scoring season from Ovechkin next year.

Look at the start of the season: Alex's dad had recently passed away, Backstrom is done, Kuznetsov plays like trash, Strome isn't much of a playmaker, McMichael and Lapierre are inexperienced, Oshie is always injured, the team is playing very defensive hockey under a rookie coach, last year the Caps were eliminated very early and played on autopilot for like final 20 games, and so on.

By the end of the season, the Caps have removed the dead weight players from the roster (Kuznetsov, Backstrom, pre-contract hustle Mantha), the kids are rapidly acclimating and starting to look like they belong in the NHL, the team has learnt to rely on veterans less, and even being dead last in the East in goals scored, the team is winning games playing for some very tangible reward. If they make the playoffs, they will enter the next season a different team.

It's fascinating how the Pens and the Caps fell off at the same time. 2016-2018, all 3 Cups were won by the winner of a Caps-Pens series. Since then, neither team has won a round.

 

[Demandedace]

It's certainly not "wrong" - I don't agree with it, but OV isn't "factually" the best goal scorer of all time and never will be, it's a matter of opinion and no matter how much of a majority share that opinion, it won't make it factual.

If Ovi "never will be" the "factually" best goal scorer of all time, who is? What criteria do you use to determine that? If he passes Wayne's record, that would mean he has the most goals of all time in addition to all of the era specific records that he holds as well, plus number of rockets, etc...

So, what criteria are you using to determine this if you are so confident to say that he never will be?

 

[Golden_Jet]

The thing is that you can compare one single attribute of goalscoring, and Ovechkin is usually up there at that top of the attribute, whereas these other guys dont.

When Ovechkin finishes his career, he'll have the following on his resume:
-> Most times leading the league in goals (a dominant lead as well on the field, especially when considering that the only person with 7 times to Ovi's 9 did it with a Canadian-only league).
-> Most times leading the league in goals/gp
-> Most adjusted goals (and likely a solid lead at that too)
-> 1st or 2nd in raw goals
-> One of the highest adjusted-goal scoring seasons of all-time

If you take all of the different ways you could assess who the greatest goal scorer of all-time is, Ovechkin is either #1 or right at the top in every conceivable metric.

It wasn’t an all Canadian league when Bobby Hull did it, and Bobby had 7 by age 32 before he left for the WHA.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It wasn’t an all Canadian league when Bobby Hull did it

NHL Totals by Nationality ‑ 1968‑1969 Stats

NHL Totals by Nationality - 1968-1969 Regular Season Stats

www.quanthockey.com

 

[Neil Racki]

Yet Lemieux was still greater.

And Lemiuex will always be greater than Connor McDavid

Am i doing it right?

 

[Acallabeth]

NHL Totals by Nationality ‑ 1968‑1969 Stats

NHL Totals by Nationality - 1968-1969 Regular Season Stats

www.quanthockey.com

Those Ovechkin fanboys with their facts dammit

 

[Golden_Jet]

NHL Totals by Nationality ‑ 1968‑1969 Stats

NHL Totals by Nationality - 1968-1969 Regular Season Stats

www.quanthockey.com

I assumed poster meant all Canadian teams.