Out of Town Thread Part 6

[Walrus26]

Our bottom 4 (4th line & 13th fwd) make 8.1M

Their bottom 4 = 3M

Our 4th line damn well better be able to contribute more, because their top 6 is significantly more talented than ours...





If we are talking about 2020-21 performance capacity/expectations...

Leafs fwd group >> Habs fwd group.

It's not even remotely close. We don't have 1 fwd at the current level of their top 4.

Talent matters.

Just as well hockey relies on more than just a forward group, then.

 

[Roadhouse]

If we are talking about 2020-21 performance capacity/expectations...

Leafs fwd group >> Habs fwd group.

It's not even remotely close. We don't have 1 fwd at the current level of their top 4.

Talent matters.

Their forward group is most definitely more talented. I agree it's not close.

If you take a step back and look at the overall product with a Habs fan or two also saying Habs D & Goalies >>> Leafs D & Goalies, "balance matters" as well.

In 18-19 we finished 4 points off from what I saw as a better version of their team. We did that with Domi & shitty backup instead of this year's acquisitions + maturing Suzuki & KK.

I think it'll be close between the 2 teams this season, and also see Toronto as "squeezed" under the flat cap over the next 2-3 years. We'll see.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I don't recall Yzerman being in charge of any of those teams.

Lol. Ok dude. Praise be to Yzerman!

 

[SakuKoivu11]

Toronto really went out to get old players. I don’t understand why Spezza and Thornton are there. Playing on the 4th line? For checking?

 

[le_sean]

The Habs bottom 6 will look something like

Toffoli-KK-Armia
Byron-Evans-Lehkonen

I’ll take any one of them over any of the Leafs bottom 6 except Evans over Kerfoot, but that’s about it. Then you sprinkle in the fact they have guys like Mikheyev and Hyman in their Top 6. Their 2nd D pairing is what, Muzzin with Holl? Lol. Then of course their choker goalie.

The gap is a lot closer than people think. They’ll be a better regular season team because they can just rely on their Big 4, but in a 7 game series, give me the bigger team with depth. If the Leafs just had a bad 4th line, they could survive. But even their 3rd line is laughable.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Toronto really went out to get old players. I don’t understand why Spezza and Thornton are there. Playing on the 4th line? For checking?

Dubas building his childhood hockey card collection in real life.

 

[Habby4Life]

The Leafs aren’t anything special. Once you get past the top 4 they are a hot mess not to mention they didn’t improve their D. They have zero depth on the third/forth lines and their top guys aren’t good enough to carry the whole team.

Thornton, Speeza, Simmonds are washed up retreads who are slow as molasses. Four guys eat up 50% of the cap which is why they had to dump Kapanen and sign these guys to minimum contracts.

 

[Roadhouse]

Reilly isn't known for his defensive ability, he's supposed to be an offensive d-man which is why he was only paired with Barrie in rare situations last year. Can't expect him to be with Brodie the Rover, if I go by what Calgary fans are saying. So Reilly will play with one of Justin Holl or Zach Bogosian! Eat them alive in their zone LOL!!! Good forechecking teams will inevitably tee right off of the Leafs' defense if the top two lines are contained. And we saw Columbus demonstrate exactly that in the play-ins.

Seen in HF Flames' TJ Appreciation thread:


"Honestly I love TJ. He’s gonna make some gaffs and some turnovers for sure, but you need to take the bad with the good. He’s average in his own end, but he’s an elite skater, excellent puck carrier and can recover very to get down the ice to break up an offensive chance. Offensively you can expect 25-30pts a season, anything more is gravy. He’s also an amazing human, I wish him the best."

"Thank you for all the amazing years. You know I've always defended you when certain reactionaries would bitch and moan about your turnovers, because you're so much more than just the occasional gaffe. I don't wish for Toronto to win the cup, ever, but if by some unfortunate circumstance they do, I'll take solace in the fact that TJ Brodie will have his name engraved on it."

"Brodie is a Rover. I've long made long ass posts trying to defend and understand his unique style. Brodie is a top Rover in the league and he will get a bit out of position at times. That's not fully brain fart. That's just unlucky gambles based on the rover style. Good luck TJ. I hope they use you well and don't misunderstand and shoe horn you again."

"He's a #2 at worst. He's probably be a #1 if he wasn't hilariously bad on the PP."

"Quite a lot IMO. He's had his struggles but they've mostly been of the brainfart variety. I can't honestly say I've noticed him slow down at all during his decade here. Played 1st pairing minutes with Gio for a looong time. He did mysteriously collapse during practice last year which I'm sure you've all heard about by now. Looked great after coming back but it was a bit of a weird episode. Other than that he's been a horse."

 

[sheed36]

Thornton has a sense of humor, I see.

Thornton was a guy I hoped would win a cup before hanging them up and he just screwed all that up by signing with a team who I never want to see win a cup. As long as he's a Leaf I hope he doesn't get a sniff at winning a cup. Sorry Joe.

 

[Miller Time]

Lol. Ok dude. Praise be to Yzerman!

Well, yes, some GM's are better than others.

Having arguably the best one in the NHL in our division is unfortunate for us.

Unless of course, you're in that "GMs don't matter, it's all luck" camp.

 

[Miller Time]

Their forward group is most definitely more talented. I agree it's not close.

If you take a step back and look at the overall product with a Habs fan or two also saying Habs D & Goalies >>> Leafs D & Goalies, "balance matters" as well.

In 18-19 we finished 4 points off from what I saw as a better version of their team. We did that with Domi & shitty backup instead of this year's acquisitions + maturing Suzuki & KK.

I think it'll be close between the 2 teams this season, and also see Toronto as "squeezed" under the flat cap over the next 2-3 years. We'll see.

Indeed.

The Price factor is huge as well. If he has a vezina worthy season, we could easily end up ahead of them.

That doesn't really affect the reality that they did a very good job of adding cheap, useful depth pieces this offseason...

 

[Miller Time]

Just as well hockey relies on more than just a forward group, then.

Sure. That wasn't the thing being discussed.

If we shift the goal posts, lots of statements can also be true.

 

[LaP]

Why nobody is putting Sandin in the Laffs top 6 is beyond me. He might not start the season but there's a good chance he's in their top 6 by the end of it.

 

[ahmedou]

 

[LaP]

View attachment 373352

Honestly i find this kind of joke is disgusting. Big Joe is one of the best player in the history of the league and I would say maybe a top 10 playmaker ever. As much as i hate the Laffs i would not mind Big Joe winning the cup. I know it's meant as a jab to the Laffs but I also think this is kind of a disrespect to a player that deserve all the respect hockey fans can give.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Are Leaf fans really getting excited about these moves??

Bogosian.....Spezza.....Thornton......

Old slow and well on the wrong side of their peaks......

It’s like the days when they were bringing in Lindros, Murphy, Gartner......what the Shanaplan group is presenting to their fan base is a faux Van Gogh......they so gullible lol

Signing Thornton at 700k is an awesome move. It gives them depth with zero risk. They are counting on him for zero.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Honestly i find this kind of joke is disgusting. Big Joe is one of the best player in the history of the league and I would say maybe a top 10 playmaker ever. As much as i hate the Laffs i would not mind Big Joe winning the cup. I know it's meant as a jab to the Laffs but I also think this is kind of a disrespect to a player that deserve all the respect hockey fans can give.

Man, I wouldn't take it seriously. It gave me a laugh.

But jokes aside, I think it's a great move for the Leafs.

 

[the]

I hope we can sign Kovalchuk so that he can dance around and embarrass Thorton, Speeza, Simmonds and whatever other has-been they have in Toronto or Montreal.

 

[Roadhouse]

Indeed.

The Price factor is huge as well. If he has a vezina worthy season, we could easily end up ahead of them.

That doesn't really affect the reality that they did a very good job of adding cheap, useful depth pieces this offseason...

That is not reality. You live in an alternate dimension where Boyd and Joey Anderson getting 15+ minutes a night to replace Kapanen and Johnsson, two speedy 3rd liners, are "useful depth pieces" and that the overall product is a "very good job".

 

[jaffy27]

Reilly isn't known for his defensive ability, he's supposed to be an offensive d-man which is why he was only paired with Barrie in rare situations last year. Can't expect him to be with Brodie the Rover, if I go by what Calgary fans are saying. So Reilly will play with one of Justin Holl or Zach Bogosian! Eat them alive in their zone LOL!!! Good forechecking teams will inevitably tee right off of the Leafs' defense if the top two lines are contained. And we saw Columbus demonstrate exactly that in the play-ins.

Seen in HF Flames' TJ Appreciation thread:


"Honestly I love TJ. He’s gonna make some gaffs and some turnovers for sure, but you need to take the bad with the good. He’s average in his own end, but he’s an elite skater, excellent puck carrier and can recover very to get down the ice to break up an offensive chance. Offensively you can expect 25-30pts a season, anything more is gravy. He’s also an amazing human, I wish him the best."

"Thank you for all the amazing years. You know I've always defended you when certain reactionaries would bitch and moan about your turnovers, because you're so much more than just the occasional gaffe. I don't wish for Toronto to win the cup, ever, but if by some unfortunate circumstance they do, I'll take solace in the fact that TJ Brodie will have his name engraved on it."

"Brodie is a Rover. I've long made long ass posts trying to defend and understand his unique style. Brodie is a top Rover in the league and he will get a bit out of position at times. That's not fully brain fart. That's just unlucky gambles based on the rover style. Good luck TJ. I hope they use you well and don't misunderstand and shoe horn you again."

"He's a #2 at worst. He's probably be a #1 if he wasn't hilariously bad on the PP."

"Quite a lot IMO. He's had his struggles but they've mostly been of the brainfart variety. I can't honestly say I've noticed him slow down at all during his decade here. Played 1st pairing minutes with Gio for a looong time. He did mysteriously collapse during practice last year which I'm sure you've all heard about by now. Looked great after coming back but it was a bit of a weird episode. Other than that he's been a horse."

Love the work you’ve put into this......good job

 

[ahmedou]

 

[Miller Time]

That is not reality. You live in an alternate dimension where Boyd and Joey Anderson getting 15+ minutes a night to replace Kapanen and Johnsson, two speedy 3rd liners, are "useful depth pieces" and that the overall product is a "very good job".

convenient how you ignore the addition of Joe Thornton @700K & Wayne Simmonds at 1.5M... them, plus Boyd (700K) and Spezza (700K) = 4 solid 3rd/4th line depth players for less than Byron/Weal cost us.
then there's Bogosian @ 1M & Vesey at 900k.

5 very capable NHL depth players @ 5.5M. That is excellent re-stocking of depth roles. Sure, a team could choose to instead spend double that amount depth roles, and obviously one would expect a "better" group of depth players if you do so. Leafs can't because they are top-heavy, which was the reality they were dealing with heading into the offseason. Context matters.

Spin it how you'd like, omit who you need, all that does is highlight the shallowness of the argument.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Roadhouse]

convenient how you ignore the addition of Joe Thornton @700K & Wayne Simmonds at 1.5M... them, plus Boyd (700K) and Spezza (700K) = 4 solid 3rd/4th line depth players for less than Byron/Weal cost us.
then there's Bogosian @ 1M & Vesey at 900k.

5 very capable NHL depth players @ 5.5M. That is excellent re-stocking of depth roles. Sure, a team could choose to instead spend double that amount depth roles, and obviously one would expect a "better" group of depth players if you do so. Leafs can't because they are top-heavy, which was the reality they were dealing with heading into the offseason. Context matters.

Spin it how you'd like, omit who you need, all that does is highlight the shallowness of the argument.

What you call "context" relative to "can't because they are top-heavy" is more self-induced cap structure difficulties than... context. Really, calling it context would be a spin.

So 2020-21 Thornton and Simmonds are "solid 3rd/4th line depth players"... based on what exactly? Experience alone? Both players have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 years. They are good for only less than half the PPG they posted for several years in their prime, and speed on the ice is evidently an issue - not likely to mesh well with the "team defense" in Toronto. Their avg TOI in the last couple are very close to what Kapanen and Johnsson logged; the compressed season will only compound issues Joe and Simmonds' old legs may be having in trying to keep pace.

Kerfoot at 5'10" 175 lbs is the absolute best they can ice at 3C, and hasn't done as good in Toronto as he did in Colorado with the same ice time. Spezza or Thornton will centre their 4th and need to backcheck on the regular to prevent odd man rushes. Again in a compressed season, that "depth" will be severely challenged which contrasts with the fresh legs we can ice on our 3rd/4th lines in MTL.

 

[le_sean]

What you call "context" relative to "can't because they are top-heavy" is more self-induced cap structure difficulties than... context. Really, calling it context would be a spin.

So 2020-21 Thornton and Simmonds are "solid 3rd/4th line depth players"... based on what exactly? Experience alone? Both players have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 years. They are good for only less than half the PPG they posted for several years in their prime, and speed on the ice is evidently an issue - not likely to mesh well with the "team defense" in Toronto. Their avg TOI in the last couple are very close to what Kapanen and Johnsson logged; the compressed season will only compound issues Joe and Simmonds' old legs may be having in trying to keep pace.

Kerfoot at 5'10" 175 lbs is the absolute best they can ice at 3C, and hasn't done as good in Toronto as he did in Colorado with the same ice time. Spezza or Thornton will centre their 4th and need to backcheck on the regular to prevent odd man rushes. Again in a compressed season, that "depth" will be severely challenged which contrasts with the fresh legs we can ice on our 3rd/4th lines in MTL.

It’s not worth it. There is no universe where it’s “shrewd” and positive to change a bottom 6 from

Johnsson-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Robertson-Spezza-Clifford

to

Vesey-Kerfoot-Simmonds
Robertson-Spezza-Boyd

There’s nothing to like there. There’s no upside other than Robertson who might just rot with limited minutes. Maybe he goes to the AHL and they put Joey Anderson instead, which is even worse.

If Boston signs Alzner for 700K, he’ll also like it simply because it’s league minimum and “it can’t hurt you”. It can absolutely hurt you to give these guys consistent minutes. The Leafs lost to Columbus because they couldn’t get secondary scoring so what can they expect when they’ve made their secondary options worse?