OT: MLB's declining interest

[Crazy_Ike]

Six teams set record lows for single-game attendance so far, and another five teams came close.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...eball-attendance-april-six-teams-record-low/1

 

[Roadrage]

Six teams set record lows for single-game attendance so far, and another five teams came close.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...eball-attendance-april-six-teams-record-low/1

A brilliant idea would be to stop playing mid-afternoon weekday games so much. To me, it just seems like there are 2-3 early afternoon games each day.

 

[Brodie]

My brother was at last night's A's-Tigers game in Oakland and told me there couldn't be more than 1500 people there... judging by TV, he was probably right.

 

[S E P H]

The NHL is saturated in Canada. I want to see greater growth in the US, like you. I haven't seen it. Not this small year by year stuff.

I've played in both USHL and Junior A in Canada and I can tell you for a fact that hockey especially junior and minor hockey in the US has grown astronomically.

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

A brilliant idea would be to stop playing mid-afternoon weekday games so much. To me, it just seems like there are 2-3 early afternoon games each day.

It's a scheduling thing. When you see a midday game, that typically means one (or occasionally both, if the home team is also traveling) teams are playing in a different city the following night; in order for them to arrive at a reasonable hour and get a full night's sleep in their new city, teams play "getaway" games that start around two in the afternoon. Sometimes those dates fall on weekdays, and can be an average killer at the gate.

It makes more sense in the college game, where you have, say, LSU playing a Sunday game at South Carolina and they need to fly back that night for classes, but I think it's outmoded in the Majors. It's an anachronism from the days before commercial air travel became commonplace.

 

[Roomtemperature]

It's a scheduling thing. When you see a midday game, that typically means one (or occasionally both, if the home team is also traveling) teams are playing in a different city the following night; in order for them to arrive at a reasonable hour and get a full night's sleep in their new city, teams play "getaway" games that start around two in the afternoon. Sometimes those dates fall on weekdays, and can be an average killer at the gate.

It makes more sense in the college game, where you have, say, LSU playing a Sunday game at South Carolina and they need to fly back that night for classes, but I think it's outmoded in the Majors. It's an anachronism from the days before commercial air travel became commonplace.

Some of it might be because of the MLBPA where they want so much time if they have to travel so far.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

They do. It's definitely something the players demand.

Fair enough as well...hockey teams generally hate the second night of back to backs, and baseball is an entire season of back to backs. It sucks not getting into your hotel room until 4 in the morning.

 

[Moobles]

Hilarious. You're entitled to not play or enjoy it if you don't want to but to call these sports "unartistic" is just so telling. All of art is subjective: there's no inherent art superior to other types. You're entering into the wrong territory here if you want to set out absolutes.

It's clear you prefer hockey to these sports but I can assure you, the fans of both (which individually outnumber fans of hockey by massive margins) don't see a problem with "artistic" elements in each game. You could easily make the same ridiculous suggestions about hockey: what is every hockey goal but a puck going into the net, a red light goes on and a bunch of guys hugging each other. See how stupid that sounds?

If you don't want to watch them sure, don't, no one's going to force you to. But don't discourage others from doing them and if you're going to disparage them do it in a way so that someone like me can't come on here, casually read it and go "wow, that is wrong in so many ways". Because I don't even watch baseball.

I don't care how popular baseball and cricket are, were and will be. The two sports lack the artistic plays you potentially have in other sports.

In baseball /Cricket you can only run in 1 direction. A player catches the ball and the only thing he decides is whether to throw it at second or third base. That is not exciting.

As a parent I can never subject my kid to the cruelty of waiting to bat every nine at bats.

Every baseball highlight looks the same. A pitch, a hit, ball goes in the stands, and someone running over home plate. What is the point of watching 162 games of that.

I love the beauty of how some of the goals in hockey develop and were completed. You do not have that artistic freedom in baseball/cricket.

I can go on but enough said. I rather spend my summers do more meaningful things.

Judged on what basis. There are plenty of hockey fans in Canada not spending money on NHL games, NHL merchandise or not watching NHL hockey. Every hockey fan in Canada is not an NHL fan, paying customer or investing time into the league (for many reasons). And if the Canucks are any indication there's plenty of room for hockey growth in cities here. One could even say the high level of interest would speed up growth but that's for another thread.

The NHL is saturated in Canada. I want to see greater growth in the US, like you. I haven't seen it. Not this small year by year stuff.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I've played in both USHL and Junior A in Canada and I can tell you for a fact that hockey especially junior and minor hockey in the US has grown astronomically.

I've actually looked at the U.S. Census numbers on participation in sports. This is based on a questionnaire sent to 10,000 households in the U.S.

Hockey (ice)

2004: 2.42 million, kids aged 7-17: 836,000
2007: 2.07 million, kids: 673,000
2008: 1.91 million, kids: 598,000

That's like a 20% decline from 2004 to 2008 in all age groups and a nearly 30% decline with children and youths.

Comparisons:

Baseball
2004: 15.85 million, kids: 8.23 million
2007: 13.95 million, kids: 6.88 million
2008: 15.17 million, kids: 7.27 million

American Football (tackle)
2004: 8.20 million, kids: 4.72 million
2007: 9.20 million, kids: 5.35 million
2008: 10.48 million, kids: 5.51 million

Basketball
2004: 27.85 million, kids: 13.04 million
2007: 24.15 million, kids: 11.87 million
2008: 29.70 million, kids: 13.29 million

Since these results are based on statistical sampling, there's obviously a margin of error here and that can explain some of the fluctuations, though none of the other sports suffered losses between 2004 and 2008 as they gained strongly from 07 to 08. It kind of makes sense given the demographic development, too.

Important of course to note, these aren't numbers of governing bodies or anything, so this is not necessarily an overview of organized play, any play is counted and based on a "Have you in the last year participated in sport X" type question. You might well have an increase in active junior hockey participation and a decrease in overall hockey participation.

An interesting to take from those numbers is that adult rec activity seems to be a bigger factor with hockey than with the other sports. Hockey is also a "rich people's sport" with 1.2% of Americans with a household income of over 75,000 dollars playing hockey (12% with basketball, 3.8% with football, 6.4% with baseball) as opposed to 0.4% of Americans with incomes under $15,000 (10.5% with basketball, 4.3% with football, 4.8% with baseball). As you can see the numbers in the other sports barely or not at all favor the wealthy whereas in hockey it is a very pronounced difference. That probably isn't shocking given the hockey demographic and the high equipment costs but it's still nice to see it in stats.

I find those numbers pretty plausible overall, the demographic shift from the North to the South and the increase in non-white population would correlate with the decline of hockey as a "people's sport" and becoming a more organized affair of the middle-class and above.

For the NHL both numbers would be of importance, the organized juniors might produce more pros than they used to, but the overall participation number is maybe more indicative of the overall fan base of the sport and league.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Hilarious. You're entitled to not play or enjoy it if you don't want to but to call these sports "unartistic" is just so telling. All of art is subjective: there's no inherent art superior to other types. You're entering into the wrong territory here if you want to set out absolutes.

It's clear you prefer hockey to these sports but I can assure you, the fans of both (which individually outnumber fans of hockey by massive margins) don't see a problem with "artistic" elements in each game. You could easily make the same ridiculous suggestions about hockey: what is every hockey goal but a puck going into the net, a red light goes on and a bunch of guys hugging each other. See how stupid that sounds?

If you don't want to watch them sure, don't, no one's going to force you to. But don't discourage others from doing them and if you're going to disparage them do it in a way so that someone like me can't come on here, casually read it and go "wow, that is wrong in so many ways". Because I don't even watch baseball.



Judged on what basis. There are plenty of hockey fans in Canada not spending money on NHL games, NHL merchandise or not watching NHL hockey. Every hockey fan in Canada is not an NHL fan, paying customer or investing time into the league (for many reasons). And if the Canucks are any indication there's plenty of room for hockey growth in cities here. One could even say the high level of interest would speed up growth but that's for another thread.

Breakaway is one of those fans who think hockey matters more that it really does.

 

[Mayor Bee]

As a longtime fan of baseball, here are a few of my thoughts.

The issue isn't the speed or the pace of the game, it's that the plodding pace is a direct result of wasting time. The number of times that a batter calls/requests "time" from the home plate umpire for no other reason than to disrupt the pitcher's rhythm is absurd. As such, the following should at least be considered.
- Once an at-bat begins, the batter is not allowed to step outside of the batter's box (the penalty to do so is an assessed strike)
- Once an at-bat begins, the batter will not be granted "time" without one heck of a good reason (contact lens falling out, attacked by rabid bats, that type of thing)

There actually is a pitch clock in baseball; I think it's 30 seconds. The penalty for exceeding it is an automatic ball. The late weirdo Charles O. Finley actually had an air horn hooked up to a timer to show up umpires who let the game drag.

The ad time between innings and half-innings needs to be cut by at least 25%. This would serve to both increase the speed (and ratings) of the game, and also increase the scarcity of ad space. Both are beneficial.

Limit the number of pitching changes per inning (and call it the Tony LaRussa Rule).

Limit the number of pickoff attempts, with an excess resulting in a ball assessed to the hitter for going over the number.

(Next up: my ways to improve college basketball, all of which revolve around chopping the number of timeouts and changing it so that team fouls in excess of 12 are treated as intentional fouls. The last 2:00 of a basketball game taking 45 minutes is craziness.)

 

[S E P H]

I've actually looked at the U.S. Census numbers on participation in sports. This is based on a questionnaire sent to 10,000 households in the U.S.

Hockey (ice)

2004: 2.42 million, kids aged 7-17: 836,000
2007: 2.07 million, kids: 673,000
2008: 1.91 million, kids: 598,000

That's like a 20% decline from 2004 to 2008 in all age groups and a nearly 30% decline with children and youths.

Comparisons:

Baseball
2004: 15.85 million, kids: 8.23 million
2007: 13.95 million, kids: 6.88 million
2008: 15.17 million, kids: 7.27 million

American Football (tackle)
2004: 8.20 million, kids: 4.72 million
2007: 9.20 million, kids: 5.35 million
2008: 10.48 million, kids: 5.51 million

Basketball
2004: 27.85 million, kids: 13.04 million
2007: 24.15 million, kids: 11.87 million
2008: 29.70 million, kids: 13.29 million

Since these results are based on statistical sampling, there's obviously a margin of error here and that can explain some of the fluctuations, though none of the other sports suffered losses between 2004 and 2008 as they gained strongly from 07 to 08. It kind of makes sense given the demographic development, too.

Important of course to note, these aren't numbers of governing bodies or anything, so this is not necessarily an overview of organized play, any play is counted and based on a "Have you in the last year participated in sport X" type question. You might well have an increase in active junior hockey participation and a decrease in overall hockey participation.

An interesting to take from those numbers is that adult rec activity seems to be a bigger factor with hockey than with the other sports. Hockey is also a "rich people's sport" with 1.2% of Americans with a household income of over 75,000 dollars playing hockey (12% with basketball, 3.8% with football, 6.4% with baseball) as opposed to 0.4% of Americans with incomes under $15,000 (10.5% with basketball, 4.3% with football, 4.8% with baseball). As you can see the numbers in the other sports barely or not at all favor the wealthy whereas in hockey it is a very pronounced difference. That probably isn't shocking given the hockey demographic and the high equipment costs but it's still nice to see it in stats.

I find those numbers pretty plausible overall, the demographic shift from the North to the South and the increase in non-white population would correlate with the decline of hockey as a "people's sport" and becoming a more organized affair of the middle-class and above.

For the NHL both numbers would be of importance, the organized juniors might produce more pros than they used to, but the overall participation number is maybe more indicative of the overall fan base of the sport and league.

2008 was the one of the hardest hit times for the economy in the US. We all know as you stated hockey is a VERY expensive sport to play compared to the others you listed. That's why if you asked and included roller hockey I would say there was an increase. Increasing over the less cost sports is another story.

 

[Melrose Munch]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/sto...nce-could-signal-deeper-problems-for-baseball


some more red meat. ouch.

 

[Acesolid]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/sto...nce-could-signal-deeper-problems-for-baseball


some more red meat. ouch.

Ouch! That Indians picture is insane! It's even less attendance then a regular Québec Capitales baseball game!

8,726 attendance? It looks more like 3 000! It's even worst concidering how well the Indians are doing so far!

Move them to Quebec City! We have better Baseball fans!

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Ouch! That Indians picture is insane! It's even less attendance then a regular Québec Capitales baseball game!

Pretty sure there were more ushers than fans in the building when that shot was taken.

It really surprises me that the league doesn't shorten the season a bit - I have no clue how much it costs to put on a single baseball game, but when only a few thousand people show up to watch, I'd bet they aren't recovering their costs.

 

[Mwd711]

Ouch! That Indians picture is insane! It's even less attendance then a regular Québec Capitales baseball game!

8,726 attendance? It looks more like 3 000! It's even worst concidering how well the Indians are doing so far!

Move them to Quebec City! We have better Baseball fans!

Too bad that picture was of San Diego. We don't have Wienerschnitzel in Cleveland

Indians fans are extremely jaded about their teams ownership after watching player after player be traded and for little in return. How excited can you be after seeing two Cy Young winners be sent out of town? The only way to send a message is to stay home, and that's what fans have been doing. As I mentioned earlier, tv ratings are rising. People are staying home and watching the games on tv instead and that's the case in most MLB markets. In Cleveland, tv ratings are up over 30 percent which is impressive since Tribe ratings have always been very strong even with the team struggling on the field.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But baseball has way, way, too many games, and hardly any single game carries any significance. Any four-game losing streak always leads to players and managers saying that baseball is a marathon, not a sprint.

Exactly. And how fun is it to watch a marathon that starts in March and ends in November. It is a long, drawn-out season in a society with an ever-shortening attention span. And the season takes months to crystallize.

This is something MLB should consider carefully. There's a reason the Kentucky Derby averages much higher ratings than the Tour De France.

 

[Breakaway3527]

Hilarious. You're entitled to not play or enjoy it if you don't want to but to call these sports "unartistic" is just so telling. All of art is subjective: there's no inherent art superior to other types. You're entering into the wrong territory here if you want to set out absolutes.

Yes art is subjective but there are those that are the same old landscapes and those that require more creative thought. Same with music and any other art form. Not all is on the same level.

There are many goals that I just say WOW. I want to see that again. It is rare to say that in a baseball homerun because most are the same. You just do not have the opportunity to have the freewill to run anywhere you want in baseball that you can in other sports. Therefore the creativity is very low.

If you are happy watching the same homerun over and over then that is a judgement on your lack of love for art and creativity. Go ahead eat the same steak and potatoes everyday.

 

[Breakaway3527]

Breakaway is one of those fans who think hockey matters more that it really does.

I am talking about all sports that is not baseball and cricket. I may have used hockey as an example. I like all sports except baseball and cricket because they are just plain stale.

All you do is criticize hockey over and over in all threads.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I am talking about all sports that is not baseball and cricket. I may have used hockey as an example. I like all sports except baseball and cricket because they are just plain stale.

All you do is criticize hockey over and over in all threads.

Because Hockey can be so much better than it is. With all this growth we should not have 4(5,6?) teams in trouble and a team about to move right now. Its not good or healthy despite what some might say.

I also want to see a greater media presence, an increased TV contract and moving up in the American sports ladder. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Dado]

I also want to see a greater media presence, an increased TV contract and moving up in the American sports ladder.

Why?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Why?

Respect, more money.

 

[Dado]

Respect, more money.

How are you personally going to get more money or respect if hockey is more popular?

 

[HabsByTheBay]

This is something MLB should consider carefully. There's a reason the Kentucky Derby averages much higher ratings than the Tour De France.

Will you be advocating this for the NHL too?

The NHL reg. season is just as long and unlike baseball, where the season does determine quite a bit, pretty much every half-decent team makes the playoffs, which lasts for another two months.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/sto...nce-could-signal-deeper-problems-for-baseball


some more red meat. ouch.

Not really.

"Baseball attendance is down 4 percent this year. At this point you can blame the weather for that."

I stopped reading there, since it totally torpedoes the point of his article (as did claims that the NBA has more people willing to pay - bullcrap, half the league's teams are losing money).

For every Cleveland you have a San Francisco who has sold out virtually every game so far. 4 percent is nothing - it's basically the crappy northern weather for most of the season that is responsible for that. Baseball attendance will stay flat until the unemployment rate goes down, but articles like this seem to come every year and attendance basically stays the same.