Orr vs. Lemieux for 20 Healthy Seasons?

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
Explain how getting a point at even strength has more impact on a game? I'm not sure I follow. A goal scored on the powerplay can be a huge momentum changer in a game...not really sure I get how an ES vs PP goal is more/less impactful.
It is more about the percentage of time a goal would have occurred on the play with a normal star offensive forward-defense player with the puck that change from a PP point vs a EV point, PK points are even more extreme.

What matter are not goal scored or points on them, it is goal scored above your replacement player. In the NBA it is more obvious, someone will take a shoot before the shot clock goes to 0, it quickly become not about how much you score but how much you score versus someone else taking the shot. 5v4 hockey get can closer to that notion outside the zone entry moment.

Mario was scoring so many points and missed a lot of game that he could be a good example to give some clue. In his case (going back to thread: Narrative around PP goals and points being of "lesser value")

the Penguins in 91-92 and 92-93 combined together (a rare example of a superstar missing (40) but also playing (124) a lot of games).

With Lemieux they scored 4.64 goals a games, without Lemieux they scored 3.38 goal a game

Lemieux scored 2.36 points a game to add a giant 1.26 goals a game to a team, more than half a goal by points.

The Penguins added .23 power play goal a game and 1.03 non power play goals a game.
Lemieux had .82 powerplay point a game versus 1.52 non power play point game.

It seem grossly that a Lemieux PP point added .28 goals to is team, a non power play point added .677 goals to is team, more than twice.


One way to look at it, obviously every goal saved has the same value than a goal scored, but so many goal are saved during a game that we rapidly only consider goal saved over replacement (think about a goaltender performance, how much we do not care if he saved 10 goals that game over someone that never played goal would have let in)

He no longer ages, either?
Also without looking, a vast part of Mario game missed would have been in the 90s-00s versus the game played in the 80s, even without aging that would a possible hit on is ppg.

Even without age, scoring like he did in the 80s earlys 90s would have been a challenge in 98-99-00-01-02, etc...

Just doing that 120 pts art ross of 1997 in those year would have been really great, in 2002-2004 that some of the most dominating art ross win in the history of the league already.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
179
91
Also without looking, a vast part of Mario game missed would have been in the 90s-00s versus the game played in the 80s, even without aging that would a possible hit on is ppg.

Even without age, scoring like he did in the 80s earlys 90s would have been a challenge in 98-99-00-01-02, etc...

Just doing that 120 pts art ross of 1997 in those year would have been really great, in 2002-2004 that some of the most dominating art ross win in the history of the league already.

I do not have the slightest clue how you come to this conclusion. This completely ignored the fact he would be scoring at a much higher ratio in the 1980's and 90s when healthy.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
I do not have the slightest clue how you come to this conclusion. This completely ignored the fact he would be scoring at a much higher ratio in the 1980's and 90s when healthy.
And how does that change the fact that playing more dpe games would hurt his career PPG (in the fantasy world or real), that just something to take into account.

Not that it matter..... has we are sophisticate people that do not care for absolute number career total and stuff like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BraveCanadian

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,721
3,600
His gpg is slightly lowered by his much smaller scoring at the end of his career.
His better health would account for better scoring during his career. Obviously there is a margin of error, statistically it would make sense that it would balance out. Healthier and scoring more in the 80s and early 90s, more games in the lower scoring DPE. I do not understand how this is confusing.

Mario's goalscoring fell off a cliff after his partial season at 35. He scored a total of 42 goals the rest of his career in the regular season. You can't just extrapolate out career per game totals for players passing their mid 30s. In this case doubly so because if Lemieux had played more games during the deadpuck, instead of sitting out half of it, his per games would have been lower from that too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jigglysquishy

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
179
91
Mario's goalscoring fell off a cliff after his partial season at 35. He scored a total of 42 goals the rest of his career in the regular season. You can't just extrapolate out career per game totals for players passing their mid 30s. In this case doubly so because if Lemieux had played more games during the deadpuck, instead of sitting out half of it, his per games would have been lower from that too.

You literally have no way of proving this, and I'm completely confused as to what your point is. What we have are raw statistics and basic math to apply to this equation. Not happenstance.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
You literally have no way of proving this, and I'm completely confused as to what your point is. What we have are raw statistics and basic math to apply to this equation. Not happenstance.
Just saying that it is vastly more complicated than doing a match could be played * Mario career PPG and you I am sure agree and for the reason you are quoting.

Volume of games would also create a different tear, I feel the op had more what if Mario/Orr has a super elite Ovechkin-Mark Reechi-Ron Francis type of health and not a magic 82 games every season, not affected by wear and tear that come from being a unstop high volume pro athlete in mind, that come in exchange with playing them when you were younger.

Those injuries, cancer treatment were harsh for sure on the body-mental, but if Mario play 525 more games in the regular season, 100 more in the playoffs, more worlds cups, the 1998 Olympics, etc... Maybe that healthy all the time Mario do not score at that 2001 half season pace during 78 games. He would have so much more mileage in him, in that trade for health.
 
Last edited:

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
179
91
Thinking that “basic math” is enough to support your point is the problem. Things are way more complicated in reality.

The premise of this thread is not reality. The premise of this thread is fantasy 'what if Lemieux(and Orr) were healthy for 20 seasons. There are variables from reality you can place into the equation, but given how Lemieux performed in the DPE with terrible teammates. I think it speaks for itself.

Those injuries, cancer treatment were harsh for sure on the body-mental, but if Mario play 525 more games in the regular season, 100 more in the playoffs, more worlds cups, the 1998 Olympics, etc... Maybe that healthy all the time Mario do not score at that 2001 half season pace during 78 games. He would have so much more mileage in him, in that trade for health.

This is an interesting point, however I do believe Lemieux scoring would have been substantially higher, especially in the early 90's if he had been 100% healthy during those years. I am saying I personally believe(obviously with no real proof beyond math, since this whole thread is fantasy) his bonus in scoring in a healthy early 90s scenario would offset lower scoring during the DPE.
 

Mike C

Registered User
Jan 24, 2022
10,252
6,653
Indian Trail, N.C.
Yup. Orr was pretty much on one leg for the last few seasons of his career and missed out on his prime years for a D. Orr was not only the best offensive D he was the best defensive D too. And he was the best player by a lot. Like Gretzky was so much better than the rest. Mario was fabulous too, but not like Orr. Don’t know if we will ever see a guy like him again.
Orr's defensive prowess is very overlooked by many because of how great he was offensively.
 

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,216
4,150
Westward Ho, Alberta
Why not in 89-90-91-92 has well ? We know for sure he could have in 1989, 90-91-92 is quite speculative, but 90-91 Coffey is still there.
He could have, but he didn't. We could say the same thing about Gretzky. He could ahve put up 200+ points in each season from 1981-82, to his final year in Edmonton in 1987-88.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
179
91
He could have, but he didn't. We could say the same thing about Gretzky. He could ahve put up 200+ points in each season from 1981-82, to his final year in Edmonton in 1987-88.

Mario Lemieux scored 199 points in 76 games in 88-89. Do you really think he would not score 1 more in an additional 4 game? Do you actually believe that? This is one of the most mind boggling things I have ever read in my entire life.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
He could have, but he didn't. We could say the same thing about Gretzky. He could ahve put up 200+ points in each season from 1981-82, to his final year in Edmonton in 1987-88.
I am not sure if people get this thread at all or maybe they (people to refuse to embarque in the fantasy of a Orr-Lemieux having a Lidstrom type career in term of missed games for 20 years) are the one that really do...


In a replay Lemieux does not even need to be healthier or play more games in 1989 to score 200+, he was a puck bounce, goal referee/assist referee decision away to do it. It is something that just could have happen and we know could have happen for sure, this is not even a question.

Obviously we could say the same for about any player in history, even Howe, would be shorter to do the list of the Lidstrom type for who that what happened, would be more what if they could play more aggressive and dangerous hockey and keep their good health like Ovechkin did.
 
Last edited:

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,216
4,150
Westward Ho, Alberta
In a replay Lemieux does not even need to be healthier or play more games in 1989 to score 200+, he was a puck bounce, goal referee/assist referee decision away to do it. It is something that just could have happen and we know could have happen for sure, this is not even a question.

The bottom line is that it didn't happen. Just like Gretzky never hit the 100 goal plateau in 1981-82, even though he was on pace to do so midway through the season. Lemieux never hit the 200 point mark when he was healthy, and the league average scoring was higher. What makes you think he would have hit 200 points when league scoring decreased substantially in the 90s?
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
The bottom line is that it didn't happen
Sure, but the bottom line is we known for sure he could have (there probably even some assists missed that year)

scoring for elite scorer did not go down substantially in the 90s before 1997, his 2.67 ppg in 93 was not necessarily better than 2.62 in 1989..

How much point did you need to make the top 10

88: 106
89: 98
90: 102
91: 101
92: 99
93: 123
94: 99
95: lock-out, 53
96: 107

Why could Mario could have clearly scored 200 in 1989 and 1993, but not in between if he play 78-79 games with Coffey ? It is obviously possible, likely or not being more the question.
 

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,216
4,150
Westward Ho, Alberta
Sure, but the bottom line is we known for sure he could have (there probably even some assists missed that year)

The real bottom line is that Lemieux failed to score 200 points when he was healthy.

Your argument is ridiculous. It's like Don Cherry once said "If my aunt had nuts, she would be my uncle."

"Brett Hull could have scored 100 goals in 1991, if he just had more ice time."

"Wayne Gretzky could have averaged 3.0 PPG in 1983-84, if he had not gone down with an injury, and slowed his pace slightly at the end of the season."

While you are at it, would you also like to anoint the Calgary Flames as 2004 Stanley Cup Champions, since they came within one goal of winning?
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
Your argument is ridiculous
What argument, that we know for sure Lemieux could have scored 200 pts if he play with someone like Coffey 78-80 games in the 89-93 window ? He had the ppg for it litterally 2 time and it is not that out of the realm of possibility that healthy he could have in 90-91-92.

What do you disagree with exactly ? How many points do you think perfectly healthy Mario (if Coffey play almost all game has well) score in 1989 if he play 78 games, my guess would be in between 180-215, you ? It must be under 200 ? What is you guess what fully healthy Mario score in 1990-1991-1992 ?

Gretzky could have done many ridiculous things yes, Brett Hull as well.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
179
91
The real bottom line is that Lemieux failed to score 200 points when he was healthy.

Your argument is ridiculous. It's like Don Cherry once said "If my aunt had nuts, she would be my uncle."

"Brett Hull could have scored 100 goals in 1991, if he just had more ice time."

"Wayne Gretzky could have averaged 3.0 PPG in 1983-84, if he had not gone down with an injury, and slowed his pace slightly at the end of the season."

While you are at it, would you also like to anoint the Calgary Flames as 2004 Stanley Cup Champions, since they came within one goal of winning?

This post makes less then zero sense somehow. This thread is about hypothetical situation, not reality. I laughed out loud reading this in confusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sanscosm

TheStatican

Registered User
Mar 14, 2012
1,654
1,364
Not sure about assuredly beating anyting. It's a possibility though. I think the way I'd say it is:

If Lemieux had full health, and was able to play mostly full, healthy seasons after 89, so including 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1994 - he has a fantastic chance at breaking either Gretzky's single season goal or point record. But that's all it is - a good chance, but definitely not a certainty, since it's an extremely high bar.
Well I did say almost assured. Perhaps that's a bit too confident, but the probability of it was greater than 50%.

1992-1993 is just one season, and as it is it's already an unusual one for him. Because he did miss time, significant time for a very serious reason, which impacted him. It impacted him negatively from a performance standpoint maybe, but also positively by fueling him with some extra motivation upon his return. If 1992-1993 was fully healthy instead, it probably plays out in a completely different way...
Of course, I naturally agree that things wouldn't unfold exactly as they did. However, the notion that he was accumulating points at a significantly higher rate than usual upon his return is simply not correct. Lemieux amassed 104 points in 39 games before his cancer sabbatical(he left after the first period of his final game due to a reoccurrence of back pain). That's a points per game rate of 2.67 or 2.60 for those who insist on using that one-period game. After his return, he scored 56 points in 20 games, equating to a PPG rate of 2.80 This represents a statistically insignificant difference of just 5% or 7%. What saw an elevation beyond the norm was his goal-scoring rate. However, the true greats accumulate points through various means, whether by scoring themselves or by setting up others. A perfect example is Gretzky, who transitioned from scoring 92 goals to just 52, yet he scored points at the same rate. Another example is McDavid this year, who will likely score 30-something less goals than the year prior and yet his point totals are projected to decrease by only half that amount and that decrease can largely be contributed to an early-season team wide slump and possibly some kind of moderate injury, which he didn't have to deal with the year prior.

Perhaps even more importantly, and directly relevant to the focus of this discussion, Lemieux was forced to leave games on no less than 6 occasions that season due to back pain. It's abundantly clear that he wasn't operating at full capacity. I won't speculate on the exact percentage of his capabilities he was playing at, that would be mere conjecture, but what we can safely say is that is was something less than 100%. This fact further diminishes the likelihood of him scoring at a reduced rate under the assumption of not being impaired by the back condition.

maybe you guess at 180 points, or at 200 points, or 220+...but hard to say for sure.
We can safety dismiss the notion that a healthy Lemieux would only score 180 points that season. As previously mentioned, Lemieux tallied 104 points in 39 games, a per game rate of 2.67, in essentially what amounted to the first half of the season. For him to score only 180 points would imply that he managed just 76 more points over the remaining 45 games, a PPG of just 1.69, which represents a staggering scoring rate decline of 36.6%!

Here's a compelling statistic: Not a single player who has scored 130 or more points in a season has EVER experienced such a drastic decline in production during the second half of their season. Throughout NHL history, there have been fifty instances of players achieving 130-point seasons, and the highest scoring rate drop in any of those instances was 35% by Marcel Dionne in the 1979-1980 season. The reasons for which are abundantly clear - both of his line mates: Dave Taylor and Charlie Simmers, suffered injuries which cost them nearly a quarter of the season in the second half and the Kings of that time had a serious lack of players talented enough to fill their void, they are after all perhaps the most infamous one-line team of all-time. That's not to say Dionne would have maintained his impressive scoring pace throughout the entire season had they not gotten injured. But he certainly would not have experienced such a pronounced decline in scoring. Unlike Dionne, Lemieux was renowned for his ability to generate offense even without the support of top-tier linemates, as demonstrated by his performances with the talent-devoid Penguins teams of the 1980s. But in any csae, the potential absence of Lemieux's regular linemates, Stevens and Tocchet, due to injury would not have posed a significant issue for the Penguins in the 1992-1993 season. This is because the team was equipped with an abundance of top-tier talent capable of adequately filling any gaps in the lineup caused by injuries.

So, why would a peak, 27 year old Lemieux - considered by most to be the most physically gifted offensive player of all time - suffer the most significant decline in offensive production among top scorers in history? While 180 points can't be ruled out with absolute certainty, the probability of that is akin to flipping a coin and having it land on heads 10 times in a row i.e. it's extremely unlikely to the point where it's not even a serious consideration.

Gretzky had ~5-6 shots at 200+ points, and he made the most of it. 200+ 4x, 196 once and 183 once.

Lemieux really onle had one shot at 200+ point, in 1989. And that's the biggest diference in their peaks. Because 1989 is when he really hit his full peak...and is also when injuries started piling up. Give Lemieux a fully healthy run of ~4-5 seasons after 1989, and who knows what he accomplishes.
I don't think you realize how marginal the differences in players' scoring rates have historically been from the 3/4 mark of the season to the final tally. Let's examine all seasons with over 160 points scored and compare the scoring rates from 20 games prior to the end of the season to their final totals:
Gretzky​
Gm#​
PTs 20gm left​
PPG 20gm left​
Final Pts​
Final PPG​
Divergence​
'81​
60​
114​
1.90​
164​
2.05​
7.9%​
'82​
60​
156​
2.60​
212​
2.65​
1.9%​
'83​
60​
147​
2.45​
196​
2.45​
0.0%​
'84​
54​
158​
2.93​
205​
2.77​
-5.3%​
'85​
60​
167​
2.78​
208​
2.60​
-6.6%​
'86​
60​
162​
2.70​
215​
2.69​
-0.5%​
'87​
59​
147​
2.49​
183​
2.32​
-7.0%​
'89​
58​
135​
2.33​
168​
2.15​
-7.5%​
'91​
58​
113​
1.95​
163​
2.09​
7.3%​
Lemieux​
'88​
57​
121​
2.12​
168​
2.18​
2.8%​
'89​
56​
154​
2.75​
199​
2.62​
-4.8%​
'96​
50​
120​
2.40​
161​
2.30​
-4.2%​

The largest variance observed was between 7.9% and -7.5%. Lemieux's scoring rate would have had to plummet by double the largest amount seen for him to end up with just 199 points on the season.

Additionally, Lemieux was not historically prone significant declines in scoring. Here's the numbers for all seasons of 59 or more games played during his prime:
Gm#​
Pt's 20gm left​
PPG 20gm left​
Final Pts​
Final PPG​
Divergence​
'85​
53​
74​
1.40​
100​
1.37​
-1.9%​
'86​
59​
110​
1.86​
141​
1.78​
-4.3%​
'87​
43​
76​
1.77​
107​
1.70​
-3.9%​
'88​
57​
121​
2.12​
168​
2.18​
2.8%​
'89​
56​
154​
2.75​
199​
2.62​
-4.8%​
'90​
39​
78​
2.00​
123​
2.08​
4.2%​
'92​
44​
83​
1.89​
131​
2.05​
8.5%​
'93​
40​
104​
2.60​
160​
2.67​
2.6%​
'96​
50​
120​
2.40​
161​
2.30​
-4.2%​
'97​
56​
96​
1.71​
122​
1.61​
-6.4%​

Hence, I pose the question once again: Why assume that he would suffer such a drastic decline, especially with the consideration of good health and at the peak of his abilities? Can I assert with absolute certainty that he would have surpassed the 200-point mark? No, certainly not(few things can be). However, the scenarios you are proposing, are amongst the less probable outcomes based on the balance of probabilities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: authentic

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
7,602
7,242
Regina, Saskatchewan
Taking a step back, if both Orr and Lemieux played under Lidstrom-like health, I think not only would Orr be known as the greater player, but the gap would be so large there wouldn't be a debate.

Lemieux might end up with greater single-season totals than Gretzky for goals and points and could rival him in Art Ross or Hart trophies. For forwards, it would turn into a 1A/1B type situation.

Right now, Orr is the consensus #1 defenseman. But with the additional ~10 seasons of prime play he would get, we're talking such a massive gap between #1 and #2 that it wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. An Orr with 12+ Norris Trophies when no one else exceeds 7. He steals such Norrises from Potvin and has a prime overlap with Bourque.

By 1981, when we start to see peak Gretzky, Orr is so far ahead of Howe as the consensus best hockey player ever he never seriously makes it a debate. As it was, Orr was 13th all-time in points at the end of 1974-75. With the additional health, there's a good chance Orr is 3rd in points all-time upon the Gretzky explosion (behind Howe and a boosted Esposito). For a player who would spend a decade as the premier defensive defenseman in the world.

If he retires ~1986, he would do so as the second highest scoring player ever (potentially first) , while adding 12+ Norris Trophies, and having the consensus best peak in hockey history.

We can guess and debate the playoff difference, or the Art Ross difference, or the Hart difference. But the extra ~800 games of prime healthy Orr would close the debate. The gap between Orr and Shore/Harvey/Bourque/Lidstrom would be so much greater than the gap between Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe and Beliveau/Hull/Crosby/McDavid.

Maybe in a world without Gretzky, a healthy Lemieux would be known as better than a healthy Orr. But Orr would be on an island by himself as a defenseman.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,554
5,189
Could end up to what they do in the playoff.

What if Mario has 3 other run that look like 91-92 ?

Gretzky playoff greatness would have stood out if the other 2 does not do it, year after year like he did.

Lead the playoff in points (he double everyone outside Howe that did it in a 2 round-4 playoff teams format)

Gordie Howe*
6​
Wayne Gretzky*
6
Guy Lafleur*
3​
Phil Esposito*
3​
Anže Kopitar
2​
Bernie Geoffrion*
2​
Bryan Trottier*
2​
Cooney Weiland*
2​
David Krejčí
2​
Dickie Moore*
2​
Evgeni Malkin
2​
Frank Boucher*
2​
Frank Nighbor*
2​
Howie Morenz*
2​
Joe Sakic*
2​
Mario Lemieux*
2​
Marty Barry*
2​
Maurice Richard*
2​
Newsy Lalonde*
2​
Nikita Kucherov
2​
Norm Ullman*
2​
Peter Forsberg*
2​
Rick MacLeish
2​

Lemieux (if he does what he did without having been pushed by Gretzky) would have a very different legacy in a world without Gretzky for almost sure and show a bit how imperfect everything is. Same but less for Gretzky without Lemieux, what if no one has yet to score 160, Gretzky would have alone the nine highest point seasons. The style of argument of Mcdavid-Howe in the 80s would have done, would be harder to make sans Lemieux.

It is easy to imagine Lemieux pulling out some 91-92 runs, but it is also easy to imagine him going to the playoff every year not pulling off Gretzky metronome always delivering mental toughness and having 1-2 let down a la 93-96, etc... even healthy, even the Sakic-Yzerman-Roy did not 100% of the time delivered, that something relatively unique to prime Gretzky.

I get what you are saying for Orr being in that Gretzky sans Lemieux, Lemieux sans Gretzky scenario. Gretzky going against Orr instead of Lafleur-Trottier for the aging veteran best player in the league title is quite an interesting what if.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jigglysquishy

TheStatican

Registered User
Mar 14, 2012
1,654
1,364
The bottom line is that it didn't happen. Just like Gretzky never hit the 100 goal plateau in 1981-82, even though he was on pace to do so midway through the season. Lemieux never hit the 200 point mark when he was healthy, and the league average scoring was higher. What makes you think he would have hit 200 points when league scoring decreased substantially in the 90s?
This entire thread revolves around hypothetical scenarios, or did you miss that?

Only once did Lemieux fail to score a point in four consecutive games - this occurred in the final six games of his career and it prompted Lemieux to retire mid-season once he realized he no longer had it. How does this relate to his 88-89 season? Well, that's exactly what would have had to happen for him not to have reached 200. He didn't register a point on Nov 3rd 1989 - a game in which he was injured in the first period. He then missed then next two games and upon his return from injury he was was held scoreless in a game on Nov 10th 1989 - another game where he played far less than he normally would, this time only shifting on the powerplay. He would have had to go scoreless in all those games at full health, PLUS two others.

So, out of 912 four-game spans in his entire career, there was but a single instance where he didn't register a point. This already indicates that the odds of him going scoreless for four games straight is approaching ONE IN A THOUSAND. Do you realize how small those odds are? Let's just put it this way, the odds of you dying in a car crash are about 10 times greater than that. However, even these small odds are grossly inflated by the inclusion of his later post prime years. In his peak, the likelihood would have been far more minuscule, easily above in one in ten thousand and possibly as high as one in hundred thousand or more. Those odds essentially amount to nothing more than a rounding error.

Lemieux was clearly a 200-point capable player at the height of his abilities. To suggest otherwise only highlights a stubborn refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad