Now Stats are not the whole story as their is more then just stats but Orr was the best offensive defenceman ever so let's just look at the numbers
1966-67 Goals (3)Orr 13 (1) Reggie Fleming 15
Assists (5) Orr 28 (1) Pierre Pilote 46
Points (2) Orr 41 (1) Pierre Pilote 52
1967-68 Goals (6) Orr 11 (1) Reggie Fleming 17
Assists (19) Orr 20 (1) Pierre Pilote 36
Points(12) Orr 31 (1) Mike McMahon 47
1968-1969 Goals (1) Orr 21 (2) Ed Westfall 18
Assists (2) Orr 43(1) Pat Stapleton 50
Points (1) Orr 64 (2) Pat Stapleton 56
1969-70 Goals (1) Orr 33 (2) Carol Vadnais 24
Assists (1) Orr 87(2) Pat Stapleton 38
Points (1) Orr 120(2) Carol Vadnais 44
1970-1971 Goals (1) Orr 37 (2) Ed Westfall 25
Assists (1) Orr 102(2) Ed Westfall 34
Points (1) Orr 139 (2) Ed Westfall 59
1971-1972 Goals (1) Orr 37 (2) Brad Park 24
Assists (1) Orr 80 (2) J. C Tremblay 51
Points (1) Orr 117(2) Brad Park 73
1972-1973 Goals (1) Orr 29 (2) Guy Lapointe 19
Assists (1) Orr 72 (2) Brad Park 43
Points (1) Orr 121 (2) Guy Lapointe 54
1973-1974 Goals (1) Orr 32(2) Brad Park 25
Assists (1) Orr 90(2) Brad Park 57
Points (1) Orr 122(2) Brad Park 82
1974-1975 Goals (1) Orr 46 (2) Guy Lapointe 28
Assists (1) Orr 89 (2) Carol Vardnais 56
Points (1) Orr 135 (2) Denis Potvin 76
Total Goals (1) Orr 259 (2) Ed Westfall 157
Assists (1) Orr 611 (2) Brad Park 252
Points (1) Orr 870 (2) Ed Westfall 396
As for goals he never had more then 12 goals more then his nearest competition
For 6 years had more assists then the 2nd place in points
As far as points. He beat his closest competitor by a minum of 40 points and as high as 80 points. However look at the names he is competing against not house hold names to alot of people especially those that were not around then and Except for Brad Park and Denis Potvin not many I have seen talked about as the all time greats
Now lets look at Gretzky vs other Centers
1979-80
Goals (2) Gretzky 51 (1) Dionne 53
Assists (1) Gretzky 86 (2) Dionne 84
Points (2) Gretzky 137 (1) Dionne 137
1980-1981
Goals (2) Gretzky 55 (1) Dionne 58
Assists (1) Gretzky 109 (2) Kent Nilsson 82
Points (1) Gretzky 164 (2) Marcel Dionne 135
1981-1982
Goals (1) Gretzky 92 (2) Dennis Maruk 60
Assists (1) Gretzky 120 (2) Peter Statsny 93
Points (1) Gretzky 212 (2) Peter Statsny 136
1982-1983
Goals (1) Gretzky 71 (2) Marcel Dionne 56
Assists (1) Gretzky 125 (2) Denis Savard 86
Points (1) Gretzky 196 (2) Peter Statsny 124
1983-1984
Goals (1) Gretzky 87 (2) Mike Bullard 51
Assists (1) Gretzky 118 (2) Barry Pederson 77
Points (1) Gretzky 205 (2) Peter Statsny 119
1984-1985
Goals (1) Gretzky 73 (2) Dale Hawerchuk 53
Assists (1) Gretzky 135 (2) Marcel Dionne 80
Points (1) Gretzky 208 (2) Dale Hawerchuk 130
1985-1986
Goals (1) Gretzky 52 (2) Mario Lemieux 48
Assists (1) Gretzky 163 (2) Mario Lemieux 93
Points (1) Gretzky 215 (2) Mario Lemieux 141
1986-1987
Goals (1) Gretzky 62 (2) Mario Lemieux 54
Assists (1) Gretzky 121 (2) Bryan Trottier 64
Points (1) Gretzky 183 (2) Mario Lemieux 107
1987-1988
Goals (12) Gretzky 40 (1) Mario Lemieux 70
Assists (1) Gretzky 109 (2) Mario Lemieux 98
Points (2) Gretzky 149 (1) Mario Lemieux 168
TOTAL
Goals (1) Gretzky 583 (2) Marcel Dionne 397
Assists (1) Gretzky 1086 (2) Peter Statsny 580
Points (1) Gretzky 1669 (2) Marcel Dionne 957
Twice he outscored his nearest competition by over 30 goals
4 times he had more assists then the nearest center had points and he did it against HHOF Lemieux,Hawerchuk and Peter Statsny
6 times he out pointed the next center by 70 points once again all are HHOF players.
He has more assists in these 9 years then Marcel Dionne has points. Marcel Dionne not just any Center but one of the best regualr season centers of all time. A total of over 600 points over him. That is pure domination when you consider how good Dionne was.
Now if you look at the playoffs. Which of course are more important. As it is where the best play the best. I know that sometimes not going far can really alter the scoring leaders but here it is anyway
1968
Goals (-) Orr 0 (1) Doug Jarret 4
Assists (18) Orr 2 (1) Mike McMahon 7
Points (29) Orr 2 (1) Mike McMahon 10
1969
Goals (17) Orr 1 (1) Serge Savard 4
Assists (T1) Orr 7 (T1) Ted Green 7
Points (4) Orr 8 (1) Serge Savard 10
1970
Goals (1) Orr 9 (2) Ed Westfall 3
Assists (1) Orr 11 (2) Jean Guy Talbot 6
Points (1) Orr 20 (2) Ed Westfall 8
1971
Goals (1) Orr 5 (2) Guy Lapointe 4
Assists(4) Orr 7 (1) Pat Stapleton 14
Points (4) Orr 12 (1) J.C Tremblay 17
1972
Goals (1) Orr 5 (2) Ed Westfall 4
Assists (1) Orr 19 (2) Brad Park 7
Points (1) Orr 24 (2) Brad Park 11
1973
Goals (9) Orr 1 (1) Guy Lapointe 6
Assists (35) Orr 1 (1) Pat Stapleton 15
Points (21) Orr 2 (1) Pat Stapleton 17
1974
Goals (T1) Orr 4 (T1) Brad Park 4
Assists (1) Orr 14 (2) Carol Vadnais 12
Points (1) Orr 18 (2) Carol Vadnais 13
1975
Goals (25) Orr 1 (1) Guy Lapointe 6
Assists (8) Orr 5 (1) Ed Westfall 10
Points (10) Orr 6 (1) Ed Westfall 15
Total
Goals (1) Orr 26 (2) Ed Westfall 18
Assists (1) Orr 66 (2) Pat Stapleton 35
Points (1) Orr 92 (2) Ed Westfall 42
For the 8 years he made the playoffs only 8 more goals then Westfall
He had more assists then Westfall had points
50 more points then Westfall
As far as playoffs he was not as dominating as in the regular season and had a few years where he did not do much, like 73,75 Only 2 if I am not mistaken are in the HHOF
Now lets look at Gretzky
1980
Goals (19) Gretzky 2 (1) Bryan Trottier 12
Assists ((53) Gretzky 1 (1) Ken Linesman 18
Points (31) Gretzky 3 (1) Bryan Trottier 29
1981
Goals (8) Gretzky 7 (1) Bryan Trottier 11
Assists (6) Gretzky 14 (1) Bryan Trottier 18
Points (3) Gretzky 21 (1) Bryan Trottier 29
1982
Goals (16) Gretzky 5 (1) Denis Savard 11
Assists (11) Gretzky 7 (1) Bryant Trottier 23
Points (11) Gretzky 12 (1) Bryan Trottier 29
1983
Goals (2) Gretzky 12 (1) Barry Pederson 14
Assists (1) Gretzky 26 (2) Bob Bourne 20
Points (1) Gretzky 38 (2) Barry Pederson 32
1984
Goals (1) Gretzky 13 (2) Ken Linesman 10
Assists (1) Gretzky 22 (2) Mark Messier 18
Points (1) Gretzky 35 (2) Mark Messier 26
1985
Goals (1) Gretzky 17 (2) Mark Messier 12
Assists (1) Gretzky 30 (1) Denis Savard 20
Points (1) Gretzky 47 (2) Denis Savard 29
1986
Goals (2) Gretzky 8 (1) Doug Gilmour 9
Assists (3) Gretzky 11 (1) Bernie Federko 14
Points (3) Gretzky 19 (1) Doug Gilmour 21
1987
Goals (7) Gretzky 5 (2) Bobby Smith 9
Assists (1) Gretzky 29 (2) Pelle Eklund 20
Points (1) Gretzky 34 (2) Pelle Eklund 27
1988
Goals (1) Gretzky 12 (2) Mark Messier 11
Assists (1) Gretzky 31 (2) Mark Messier 23
Points (1) Gretzky 43 (2) Mark Messier 34
TOTAL
Goals (1) Gretzky 81 (2) Mark Messier 66
Assists (1) Gretzky 171 (2) Mark Messier 91
Points (1) Gretzky 252 (2) Mark Messier 157
Twice Gretzky had more assists then the next guy had points
Except for his first year had at least 10 points in the first round when losing
In 81 and 86 only playing 2 rounds was only 8 and 2 points from the leader
All but four of the guys who were ahead of him or right behind him were HHOF
Just like Orr has more assists then the nearest center has point and beat him by 95 points
The reason I posted this is not to try and point at stats and say that Gretzky is better because of this just that as dominating as Orr was against his pears Gretzky was just as dominant against his pears dare I say more.
Gretzky dominated the game like no other center just like Orr did it has a defenceman. I am just tired of a lot on here making it sound like Gretzky is so far away from Orr because Orr dominated his pears so badly. When I look at the top defenceman that he went up against of course he dominated them they were not offensive defenceman per say like him. When Gretzky was dominating he was doing it against some of the greatest players to ever play the position. That means alot to me.
Like I said by no means does this put Gretzky over the top because it is just stats but it can't be denied that by points alone and dominance over their pears statistically Gretzky was the better of the two
There are some factual errors in this post, as well as some rather suspect conclusions.
Factual Errors:
Reg Fleming and Ed Westfall were wingers, not defensemen. Ed Westfall began as a Dman, but moved up front. He occasionally played D if needed, but he was a fixture at RW on the Bruins checking line and top PK unit with Derek Sanderson. This changes your numbers substantially. For instance, the runner up to Orr for goals in 70-71 was Guy Lapointe, with 15 (as compared to Westfall with 25). And J.C. Tremblay was the runner up in assists, with 52 (followed by Stapleton with 51), both of whom had more than Westfall's 34. You should re-do those total numbers, as they are misleading.
Suspect conclusions:
Why do you have such a dim view of Orr's contemporaries on defense? Potvin, Park, Savard, Lapointe, Salming, Robinson, Tremblay, Horton... these guys were great, great players.
And lets not forget that Orr consistently outscored an amazing collection of all-time great forwards such as Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Marcel Dionne, Guy Lafleur, Bobby Clarke, Gilbert Perreault, Frank Mahovlich, Jean Ratelle and Johnny Bucyk.
Oh yeah...
he did this even though he was a defenseman!
None of the above outscored Orr during his peak. Look at the scoring leaders from '70-75:
69-70: Orr 120, Esposito 99
70-71: Esposito 152, Orr 139
71-72: Esposito 133, Orr 117
72-73: Esposito 130, Clarke 104, Orr 101 (when Orr missed 15 games due to knee surgery)
73-74: Esposito 145, Orr 122
74-75: Orr 135, Esposito 127
The only player who ever actually outscored Orr was his teammate, Phil Esposito. And it was Orr, not Espo, who was the architect of the Bruins offense. As Jean Beliveau said:
"When the Bruins faced off in our zone, it didn't matter who they had up front - Esposito, Hodge, Cashman, Bucyk or McKenzie. How we lined up was dictated by one factor, the position of Bobby Orr. When the puck was dropped, everyone's attention was divided, with nervous glances in Orr's direction predominating."
-from Blades on Ice; pg 124-125
Beliveau's observation is confirmed when we look at the dramatic drop-off in Espo's point-per-game production after he got traded to the Rangers,
and away from Orr:
72-73: 78 games, 55G, 75A, 130Pts for
1.67 points/game
73-74: 78 games, 68G, 77A, 145Pts for
1.86 points/game
74-75: 79 games, 61G, 66A, 127Pts for
1.61 points/game
-traded to the Rangers-
75-76: 62 games, 29G, 38A, 67Pts for
1.08 points/game
76-77: 80 games, 34G, 46A, 80Pts for
1.00 points/game
Everybody knows about Gretzky's scoring exploits. He was out of this world.
But Orr's numbers from the blueline are, in their own way, every bit as astonishing as Gretzky's. He left his fellow blueliners so far behind it's laughable. Not only that, he outscored all those HOF forwards too - except Espo, who was reduced to a mere mortal without him. And Orr put up all those incredible, record-obliterating numbers without abandoning his defensive responsiblities.