Proposal: Option Choc - Shock

[BaseballCoach]

In the case of Heineman, it's not a question of being ready, it's that he goes back to the SHL playing on his club bottom 6. If the Habs wants to send him to the AHL to get top 6 minutes, they have to keep him with the NHL until January.

Is it December 1st or 31st?

Also, is the decision reversible? If Heineman gets top 6 minutes, and performs well, can the Habs bring him back by a certain date? How does the NHLPA rule workm, and what does the IIHF transfer protocol say?

I'd consider that but only after 10 games.

Hoffman in particular has little chance of having any trade value so I wouldn't mind burying him in the minors and replacing him with a rookie on a ELC. The only option to move him will be to pay a team to take him on, and we won't do that in a rebuild. Maybe in 24-25 if we start performing and need the $$$.

Armia could rebound and hold some value down the road and be useful to the team.

Drouin, meh, but I would at least give him 20 games to get it going, he usually has good starts to be fair. Often the most productive forward in the first 20 games.

When he has been productive to start, he has had impressive camps and everyone was talking about him turning it around. This year, dud.

 

[morhilane]

Is it December 1st or 31st?

I didn't actually check, it could be December 1st too, but the point still stand if Heineman doesn't start in the NHL, he's going back to Sweden for the entire season.

 

[BaseballCoach]

As much as I’d love to ship dead weight to Laval, the whole thinking outside the box and telling youngsters to play with heart is EXACTLY the MO of the prior administration.

We‘re in a rebuild. Losing sucks, and I’m not wild about it, but it’s part of the process. It appears HuGo have a plan so we need to give it time. Decisions around some of the, uh, less useful players will come organically through the process.

You are only partially right. The old regime told the youngsters they had to hustle and be perfect while tolerating the vets mailing it in and being unproductive and making as many mistakes or more.

Your plan would perpetuate that (keep the vets, worry the kids are not good enough), whereas a true new approach is to have the most meritorious players make the team, and the NHL development process done well, with players not punished for making some mistakes but improving as they are worked with.

What do we have to lose if Heineman, Mesar or Ylonen gets a chance over Armia?

Also, if Pitlick and Pezzetta are playing actually better than Drouin and Hoffman, then even if not waived to Laval, the latter two should sit their turns in the stands. That also passes a message.

 

[BaseballCoach]

None of Slaf, Mesar, Beck, Heineman, Richard, Ylonen or RHP have shown they are ready to steal a vet spot.

Holy crap!

It's not like they need to beat out a Lehkonen or young 20 goal Byron! Pierre Mondou was once fully ready for the NHL but had to spend the entire year in the AHL because he couldn't crack a lineup where the 4th line LW scored 32 goals.

Drouin had 6 goals last year, Armia also 6 goals, and Hoffman 15 but gave up perhaps 40. If you do that, and don't come to camp and show much better, a good organizaton will not give you easy ice time again.

Waive at least one, leave the other two in the stands for a bit, and if they don't show more when they return to the lineup, waive them too.

 

[sandviper]

You are only partially right. The old regime told the youngsters they had to hustle and be perfect while tolerating the vets mailing it in and being unproductive and making as many mistakes or more.

Your plan would perpetuate that (keep the vets, worry the kids are not good enough), whereas a true new approach is to have the most meritorious players make the team, and the NHL development process done well, with players not punished for making some mistakes but improving as they are worked with.

What do we have to lose if Heineman, Mesar or Ylonen gets a chance over Armia?

Also, if Pitlick and Pezzetta are playing actually better than Drouin and Hoffman, then even if not waived to Laval, the latter two should sit their turns in the stands. That also passes a message.

Well, I'll give you that re: old regime giving vets a free pass, though I'll add that only the grinding and team-first vets they gave them this much rope.

I also don't have a problem giving the youth a larger role and yeah, give them this over some of the less productive vets. However, we do need to still insulate the youth who aren't there yet. I like Heineman, Mesar and Ylonen for example, but none are ready for a top-6 role and I'd argue a top-9 role is asking a lot. This is a double edge sword as their play-style doesn't lend itself to 4th line minutes.

I get "sending a message" to guys like Drouin and Hoffman, but really, will they get that memo? Both of those examples are players who are who they are. Putting them in the press box won't send a message to them, especially for a team not expected to win.

From a development standpoint, I don't really have any problem with your idea, but we're still rebuilding and it's actually in our best interest to maximize the trade value of Drouin, Dadonov and Monahan specifically. Hoffman though, we should move him at the first opportunity.

 

[CHwest]

The idea that Heineman or whoever is better than guys with 50 points and 30 goals seasons in the NHL is something that just destroys my brain!

You can't be freaking serious about this?

Heineman had like 8 solid shifts in 2 games where he shot the puck and didn't even hit the net on most of those shots ffs!

I don't understand this constant all the vets suck mentality on this board...

Pathetic stuff.

Out of the guys mentioned, Drouin, Hoffman and Armia, which one is going to get 50 points and 30 goals?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Well, I'll give you that re: old regime giving vets a free pass, though I'll add that only the grinding and team-first vets they gave them this much rope.

I also don't have a problem giving the youth a larger role and yeah, give them this over some of the less productive vets. However, we do need to still insulate the youth who aren't there yet. I like Heineman, Mesar and Ylonen for example, but none are ready for a top-6 role and I'd argue a top-9 role is asking a lot. This is a double edge sword as their play-style doesn't lend itself to 4th line minutes.

I get "sending a message" to guys like Drouin and Hoffman, but really, will they get that memo? Both of those examples are players who are who they are. Putting them in the press box won't send a message to them, especially for a team not expected to win.

From a development standpoint, I don't really have any problem with your idea, but we're still rebuilding and it's actually in our best interest to maximize the trade value of Drouin, Dadonov and Monahan specifically. Hoffman though, we should move him at the first opportunity.

It is not realistic to expect rookies to start in a top-6 role. Suzuki started as 4th line winger. Lecavalier started on the third line, as did Stamkos, Tavares and Hughes.

I think some people are under the impression that if the kids play in Laval and dominate, they will pop into the NHL in a top-6 role right away. That is rarely, rarely how it works. Plekanec is touted as an example of a guy who benefitted from playing in Hamilton. Quite possibily, but he STILL started on the 4th line when he graduated. The AHL is so much weaker than the NHL that dominating the AHL proves almost NOTHING. Hockey history is filled with guys who starred in the AHL and did squat in the NHL. Just in our own world, we know very well Corey Locke, Charles Hudon, Daniel Carr, Laurent Dauphin. There are literally hundreds of guys like that. Playing down can help provide ice time to correct mistakes that were evident higher up, or to rebuild confidence if it was shattered, but a guy who was shattered and unable to handle 4th line NHL duty, is not going to go down, skate around 5 Nate Schnarrs, and come back up to play 2nd line.

A guy like Ylonen can start on the 4th, Heineman 3rd or 4th, Slafkovsky I would put with Suzuki and Caufield just to start building chemistry for the future, but ready to limit Slaf's minutes to about 15 and not expecting top-6 production from him right away. Without pressure to win at all costs, we can develop PROPERLY.

Of course, all this is assuming that in these last 4 exhibitions, we see that the kids actually are better than the vets I am talking about. If not, I agree they should not be given unearned status either.

 

[LaP]

Just be patient. Rushing prospects and poor asset management isn't going to get us anywhere.

I agree.

Personally no young forward would make the team. There's no spot left and there's no reason to give the team a bad name on the ufa market by sending some ufa we signed to the AHL or buying out their contract. The forward lineup would be the same as last year with Dach and Monahan. Then at the deadline try to trade Dandonov and Droudrou and recall two kids to finish the year.

In defense Wideman, Savard, Matheson and Edmundson would all have a regular spot and two kids would make the team. try to trade Edmundson at the deadline and grind another kid to finish the year.

 

[Treb]

Holy crap!

It's not like they need to beat out a Lehkonen or young 20 goal Byron! Pierre Mondou was once fully ready for the NHL but had to spend the entire year in the AHL because he couldn't crack a lineup where the 4th line LW scored 32 goals.

Drouin had 6 goals last year, Armia also 6 goals, and Hoffman 15 but gave up perhaps 40. If you do that, and don't come to camp and show much better, a good organizaton will not give you easy ice time again.

Waive at least one, leave the other two in the stands for a bit, and if they don't show more when they return to the lineup, waive them too.

My point remains the same. None of them are NHL ready.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I agree.

Personally no young forward would make the team. There's no spot left and there's no reason to give the team a bad name on the ufa market by sending some ufa we signed to the AHL or buying out their contract. The forward lineup would be the same as last year with Dach and Monahan. Then at the deadline try to trade Dandonov and Droudrou and recall two kids to finish the year.

In defense Wideman, Savard, Matheson and Edmundson would all have a regular spot and two kids would make the team. try to trade Edmundson at the deadline and grind another kid to finish the year.

How do I take you seriously when you want to trade Edmundson and keep Savard and Wideman?

Leaving that aside, if we don't have any new forwards who can beat Armia's and Drouin's 6 goals each, I'm scared.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Out of the guys mentioned, Drouin, Hoffman and Armia, which one is going to get 50 points and 30 goals?

all of them
(combined)

 

[DAChampion]

A few rookies on the roster is enough, and there will be more once the inevitable injuries happen.

How do I take you seriously when you want to trade Edmundson and keep Savard and Wideman?

???

Edmundson almost certainly has more trade value.

 

[Rapala]

I figured Drouin was the best deadwood to ditch as I seriously doubt that he can build any trade value by the deadline. If they need that extra roster spot for a critical decision, he has to be the weakest link IMHO.

Added bonus he won't report to Laval.

 

[Rapala]

Wow people are under-rating Heineman IMO. The one guy who skates miles and pays attention to detail. I see another Eller Lehkonen argument on the horizon. Bring it on. I'm on this side of the line and I'm not budging.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Edmundson almost certainly has more trade value.

Ok. Trade Allen, Matheson, Anderson, Dvorak, and Evans too then.

 

[LaP]

How do I take you seriously when you want to trade Edmundson and keep Savard and Wideman?

Leaving that aside, if we don't have any new forwards who can beat Armia's and Drouin's 6 goals each, I'm scared.

Edmundson has the highest trade value of our vets with soon to be expired contract probably. There's no point keeping him by the time we contend he'll be too old. Savard and Matheson are good vets and you have to free spots for kids. There's no point keeping Edmundson if his value is the same as Toffoli and Chiarot. He should be traded by deadline of next year or ideally as soon as a good offer is made cause a 2023 pick is worth more than a 2024 pick.

 

[LaP]

Ok. Trade Allen, Matheson, Anderson, Dvorak, and Evans too then.

Will be harder to trade because of the length/value of their contract. Winning teams got no space. Dvorak is paid a lot for a 3rd line center not sure teams will line up to acquire him until he proves he's a 2nd line center. He's vastly overrated around here. Anderson have many years left will be hard to find a taker for now. Number 2 goalies got no value. Matheson's contract is not as easy to shallow as Edmundson and he's not really better.

Edmundson got a very team friendly contract specially if we retain. Only 1 year left after this season and you don't have to retain much to make it a very good contract. If he's healthy at the deadline his value will be extremely good specially if we accept to retain 1 millions.

 

[morhilane]

Edmundson has the highest trade value of our vets with soon to be expired contract probably. There's no point keeping him by the time we contend he'll be too old. Savard and Matheson are good vets and you have to free spots for kids. There's no point keeping Edmundson if his value is the same as Toffoli and Chiarot. He should be traded by deadline of next year or ideally as soon as a good offer is made cause a 2023 pick is worth more than a 2024 pick.

His back (issues) might change that. He missed a good chunk of last season because of it and he already "re-injured" it after a collision during practice. We have no idea when he's supposed to return.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Edmundson has the highest trade value of our vets with soon to be expired contract probably. There's no point keeping him by the time we contend he'll be too old. Savard and Matheson are good vets and you have to free spots for kids. There's no point keeping Edmundson if his value is the same as Toffoli and Chiarot. He should be traded by deadline of next year or ideally as soon as a good offer is made cause a 2023 pick is worth more than a 2024 pick.

Edmundson is only 29. If he is good, we could consider keeping him. Otherwise the time to trade him is the 2024 deadline. He won't fetch much at the 2023 deadline when we cannot retain to make him affordable to a contender.

Besides we will know much better in 1.5 years than in 0.5 years what we may have with Guhle, Xhekaj and Harris, and thus whether Edmundson should be re-signed.

Dvorak is paid a lot for a 3rd line center not sure teams will line up to acquire him until he proves he's a 2nd line center. He's vastly overrated around here.

Dvorak is not paid a lot for a middle six center who pots 0.5 ppg or better.

 

[Runner77]

Edmundson is only 29. If he is good, we could consider keeping him. Otherwise the time to trade him is the 2024 deadline. He won't fetch much at the 2023 deadline when we cannot retain to make him affordable to a contender.

Besides we will know much better in 1.5 years than in 0.5 years what we may have with Guhle, Xhekaj and Harris, and thus whether Edmundson should be re-signed.


Dvorak is not paid a lot for a middle six center who pots 0.5 ppg or better.

As soon as the cap rises, that Dvo contract is going to look dirt cheap.

 

[LaP]

As soon as the cap rises, that Dvo contract is going to look dirt cheap.

That's not now though that's at least 1 year from now likely. Imo we should totally try to get another first in 2023 and i think our best bet is probably a healthy Edmundson. If another player can be used then fine but i think going with the mentality that our prospect pool is good enough as it is would be foolish. Better to have too much than not enough. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Runner77]

That's not now though that's at least 1 year from now likely. Imo we should totally try to get another first in 2023 and i think our best bet is probably a healthy Edmundson. If another player can be used then fine but i think going with the mentality that our prospect pool is good enough as it is would be foolish. Better to have too much than not enough. That's my opinion anyway.

Only reason I alluded to the cap rising in respect of Dvo’s contract is that he has 2 more years after this season.

 

[FF de Mars]

The OP's opinion is basically the opposite of what I think management should do... Leave the most prospects you can in the AHL! The OP thinks Heineman might start on the 3rd line in the SHL; really, no one knows, injuries in the top 6, bad performances, etc. Let all of the deadwood, all of it burn one last year, and please keep the young studs away from that dumpster fire!

 

[Andrewcoursol]

all of them
(combined)

Only attained by combing career totals, none of these guys get those numbers this upcoming season.

 

[Belial]

Out of the guys mentioned, Drouin, Hoffman and Armia, which one is going to get 50 points and 30 goals?

Drouin's been on pace for around 50 points each season he's been with us, the problem is that he can't stay healthy.

The point is not even that those vets are gonna have great seasons this year as the team is going to struggle, the point is all these shiny kids having a couple of good shifts here and there are NOT better than them!