OPPF2020 Finals - Montreal Maroons vs. Montreal Wanderers

[ImporterExporter]

As I correctly, IMO, pointed out, the Maroons have a superior 3rd pairing based on cumulative resumes and postseason experience. They serve a valuable purpose on the PP as players who have excelled there.

If you want to see a BIG depth advantage, look no further than the bottom lines.

4th line vs 4th line

Joe Malone-Mike-Modano-Theo Fleury vs Bill Barber-Peter Stastny-Todd Bertuzzi

No offense to the Wanderers but the Maroons blow the doors off their counterparts when looking at the last F groups. 2 of the 3 are HOF'ers and the third (Fleury) is certainly in the Hall of Very Good. They are all 80+ VsX players (correct me if I'm wrong on Malone's translation from the old VS1 to a Vsx approximation). All 3 can defend, especially Modano. Malone is a tremendous goal scorer and overpass put together a fantastic bio in 2018 showing he was a solid defensive player. Modano was a very underrated puck handler and passer and simply put balanced offensive performer while peaking as a Selke finalist C and strong face off artist. Fleury will pester, muck, dig, hit and cause havoc up and down the ice.

The Maroons 4th line is simply better offensively (by pretty decent margin) thanks to the wingers, better defensively, more accomplished in postseason situations, etc, etc.

Some people forget that Modano was one of the best 2 way C's in hockey during the DPE.

Selke finishes of 3, 4, 6, 6, 12

This while putting up a 7 year VsX 81.5 and he's 51st all time in ES VsX (1960 to present).

When I think of Modano I remember a very explosive yet slick skating C who wasn't really dominant in any one area but was just damn solid everywhere. Strong in the dot, wasn't affraid to mix it up and play hurt. He and Stastny are more or less washes all time but give me the guy who was a legit 200 foot player and big game performer in this setting.

Hart finishes of 7, 7, 10, 11, 12
Peaked as 2nd team AS in 2000 (2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

Big time experience in the playoffs

146 points in 176 games
Was phenomenal during the Stars back to back runs to the Finals (1 win/1 loss). Led the postseason both years in assists.

Great write up on him here:

Mike Modano: 100 Greatest NHL Players

In Game 2 of the 1999 Stanley Cup Final, Modano broke a bone and tore ligaments in his left wrist when he was slammed into the boards by Buffalo Sabres defenseman Jay McKee. He missed the final 10 minutes of the game but returned for Game 3. He was a key performer in Game 5 when the Stars won 2-0 and in Game 6 when Brett Hull's triple-overtime goal gave Dallas a 2-1 win to clinch the Cup. Modano assisted on all four Stars goals in the final two games.

"Not only was Modano willing to play hurt, he delivered," Button said.

The Stars scored 13 goals in the series, and Modano assisted on seven.

"He is a jack of all trades and master of all of them," Hull said. "He can shoot, pass, skate, play defense, kill penalties and run a power play. And he's one of the top three physically fit people I ever played with."

Malone and Fleury absolutely blow the doors off Barber and Bertuzzi.

Fleury provides the energizer bunny pest. He'll hit everyone, dig pucks, create havoc all over the ice. He could easily fill in on a 3rd team PK unit or 2nd team PP. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get Bertuzzi to take a stupid penalty as well.

82 Vsx over 7 years
53rd all time (since 1960) in ES VsX just a hair behind his C on this squad.

He peaked as a 2nd team AS in 94-95 and was on the 3rd team twice and 4th once.
5th place twice in Hart voting.
5th place once in Selke

79 points in 77 playoff games.
SC champ in 89

Bertuzzi has a putrid postseason record. He's going to be skating against Joe Malone mostly which is major mismatch.

Speaking of Malone

HOF
Scored 343 goals in 273 regular season games from 1908-09 to 1923-24 (LOH)
NHA goal scoring leader (1913, 1917)
NHL goal scoring leader (1918, 1920)
NHL record holder for goals scored in a game (7) and goals per game in a season (44 goals in 20 games, 1917-18)
Charles L. Coleman named Malone as one of three forwards (plus rover) to his 1893-1926 all-star team
Ranked #39 on The Hockey News Top 100 Players from 1998
Ranked #72 on the History of Hockey's Top 100 Players from 2018-19

This guy was an absolutely lethal goal scorer in his day. And thanks to one of the greats in these parts we know that Malone wasn't just an offensive difference maker.

Pulled some tidbits from the exceptionally well done bio by @overpass

Descriptions of Malone's game

D.A.L. MacDonald, Montreal Gazette, January 23, 1934: Turning Back Hockey’s Pages

Scoring marks were not the only records Malone that left behind him for future hockey stars to shoot at. In the days of rowdy hockey, when butchery was too often the means towards victory, Malone was a Frankie Boucher type of centre. It is significant that in 1919-20, when penalties records were kept for the first time, Malone served only 12 minutes on the side-lines, though scoring 39 tallies. Tall, rugged and a great stickhandler, he was also a potent defensive unit. He had a fine poke-check, and like Nighbor, used a long stick to break up opposing attacks. He and Odie Cleghorn were probably the outstanding stickhandlers of their day. But unlike Odie, who used a short stick and nursed the puck along almost between his skates, Malone swept through the opposition with long, swinging strides. He was a left hand shot.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dink Carroll, Montreal Gazette, June 28, 1950 (Malone elected to Hall of Fame)

One thing Joe could do was put the puck in the net. As we recall him he skated with his feet fairly wide apart, was hard to knock off balance, was always in the right place at the right time and had a hard and accurate shot.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Who’s Who in Hockey – Stan Fischler

Many respected observers regard Joe Malone as the greatest all-around scorer of the early NHL year. “He might have been the most prolific scorer of all time if they had played more games in those days,” said Frank J. Selke, the former Canadiens managing director who remembered Malone as a young professional. “It was amazing the way Joe used to get himself in position to score. In that respect his style was similar to Gordie Howe’s. Joe was no Howie Morenz as far as speed was concerned. But he was a clean player like Dave Keon and Frank Boucher. On the other hand, though, Joe never took a backwards step from anybody.”

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Overpass:

Did Malone backcheck? Yes. My reading suggests that right wing Jack Marks was the most energetic backchecker on the Quebec team. Left wing Tommy Smith was a great shooter and very good around the opponent's net, but wasn't a good enough skater to be effective on the backcheck, leaving Malone and Marks to do most of the work. Malone was a very good checker but may not have backchecked as much as Marks did.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Malone to the left of Modano doesn't strike me as any more strange than Malone to the left of Kennedy. I'm on-board inasmuch as I'd agree that a not perfectly ideally placed Malone is still superior to Bill Barber. Unlike IE, I prefer Stastny to Modano (though not by much), but Theo Fleury v. Todd Bertuzzi is not close.

Thing I remember is... Joe Malone got zero-zip credit for defensive presence in the recently-completed ATD. His squad finished ahead of one of the RB teams in the Regular Season, but Beast flipped the script and bounced the Orr/Malone-led Winnipeg Victorias in The Playoffs- and one of his arguments was that Joliat was the only 2-way presence worth mentioning on Winnipeg's line #1.

Well- that's so much spilt-milk, granted- and my assessment of the Maroon 4th line as preferable isn't going to stand or fall on century-plus old impressions of Malone's defensive prowess.

Thing I keep going back to is- I see the Maroons squad, and (having seen more than a little bit of Quenneville in my time) feel like I KNOW how he's going to use that set of personnel.

He's going to ride Chelios like the Percheron he is, because that's what he did with Duncan Keith, (who's studly and fit)- but Chelios is studlier and fitter.

He's going to arrange for a sort of 'equal-temperament' arrangement between Stewart and Leetch, because Stewart's up to handing it- and also because Coach Quenneville did not get where he is today by being stupid.

What I'd like to know is how @BenchBrawl will make clear how Lester Patrick will manage the Wanderers personnel- particularly how much extra load the top-9 Forwards are going to absorb to minimize the presence of that 4th line that he brings to the table. If I did independent research on Patrick, I could probably answer the question myself... but I'd like to listen to it in his own words.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Random article about Mario Lemieux on the powerplay compared to other players who excel in that role by Ray Ferraro:

Scoring goals on the power play is more difficult than it appears. Sure, you've got the man advantage, but as a player, you can never underestimate another team's abilty to protect the net. Every team practices the penalty kill, and if they're focused and composed, they'll certainly handle the added pressure.
On the power play, you have to move the puck and get off quality shots. Then, of course, there's still that tedious task of beating the goalie.
I'm happy to see Dave Andreychuk achieve this milestone in his career. His scoring success on the power play is no abberation. He's used his size, positioning and great hands to get to this point.
But he isn't the only one:
Dave Andreychuk

	Andreychuk

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The book on Andreychuk has always been that he's very strong, but can't skate very well. Which is interesting, considering he's scored close to 600 goals in his career (597). His tremendous size (6-foot-4, 220 pounds), makes him difficult to defend and virtually impossible to move. Defensemen play to his stick as much as possible, because playing to his body is just a waste of time. Andreychuk uses his size to his advantage. He gets closer to the net, and he always has his stick on the ice. He's got great hands and seems to get a stick on anything that gets near him.
Like any other player who's successful on the power play, Andreychuk's positioning is very good. He knows his strengths, and he's smart about positioning himself to take advantage of the play. You can have great hands, but if you can't position yourself in the right spot on the ice, it really doesn't matter. During the power play, he capitalizes on the little extra space in front of the net. And because he's so extraordinarily strong, he gets to the front of the net and makes it work for him.
Hockey is all about playing to your strengths. Players like Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky would have own every record, but their skills include setting guys up and moving the puck around. Andreychuk is a pure scorer -- that's what separates him from the rest.
Brett Hull

	Hull

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

During the power play, you can generally find Brett Hull hanging out in the left faceoff circle. A right-handed shot, Hull can shoot his massive one-timer from anywhere in that circle. And nobody shoots a better one-timer than Hull. He doesn't skate all over the place and he gets himself in passing lane position better than anyone. He doesn't get enough credit for his passing ability. Hull has an uncanny ability to anticipate what the guy with the puck is looking at, get himself into position to take the pass, and one-time it to the goal. The puck is on and off Hull's stick quicker than anyone else in the game.
Luc Robitaille

	Robitaille

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Overall, Robitaille is a well-rounded player. There's nothing in particular that stands out about him -- he's got a good shot, but it's not the best. He's got a good release, but it's not the best. Robitaille's competitiveness and heart make him special. He absolutely loves to score and will endure all sorts of punishment to get in position. On the power play, he takes advantage of the extra couple of feet as well as anyone in the league. Generally, he'll be in the right faceoff circle or in front of the net. And he'll do whatever it takes to get there.
Robitaille is an interesting case. Like Andreychuk, for years, everyone has said that he can't skate and that he's too slow. But considering he's got 622 goals, he's got to be doing something right. When I played with Robitaille, what surprised and impressed me most was how hard he competes for a loose puck. If there's a loose puck around the net, and he can possibly get his stick on it, he's got it.
It seems like every time Robitaille shoots the puck, it goes in on it's side or it will just barely squeaks past the goalie. I've never seen someone score more goals that, after the puck goes into net, everyone in the rink thinks, "Geez, that was a bad goal." Some chalk it up to luck, and if he only had 100 goals, I might agree, but that's not the case. His approach may be somewhat unconventional, but he gets the job done.
Mario Lemieux

	Lemieux

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mario Lemieux can do just about anything he wants. He uses his size and his great reach, he's an excellent passer and he seemingly has pinpoint accuracy with his shot. Lemieux hangs in the same circle as Brett Hull, but if the goaltender plays the pass a little bit, Lemieux has the skill to beat him through a small crack off the goal post or through the legs. I've seen him score goals from behind the net.
Of all these stars, Lemieux is the only player I've seen who forces teams to actually adjust their penalty kill just to stop him. They'll try to take him out of the equation. They might try to shade a forward over to him a bit. But Lemieux is so good that when he makes a pass across the ice, his teammate receiving the pass has 20 feet of room. When teams focus on Lemieux, they're leaving themselves vulnerable in other areas, so it's basically pick your poison -- you're going to get hurt eventually.
Other than hoping he's out of the lineup, there's no real way to defend him. The best you can do is try to get the puck out of his hands as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter where it goes, as long as it's not on his stick. Whoever else gets the puck is not as good as him. Even if it's Alexei Kovalev-- who I believe is among the most talented players in the league -- he's still not as good as Lemieux. If someone else beats you, that's the way it goes. In the World Series, the Anaheim Angels pitched around Barry Bonds and said, "If anyone else can beat us, go ahead." And in the end, the Giants couldn't.
Of these stars, Lemieux is the one who'll end up on both sides of the ice, but mainly he'll be in that left faceoff circle, up high by the point or down near the goal-line more than the others. With Robitaille and Andreychuk, you could probably throw a blanket over their area on the power play. Hull is more mobile, but Lemieux is by far the most mobile.

ESPN.com: NHL - Power-play goals: Right place, right time

 

[ImporterExporter]

@BenchBrawl

Good luck brother! This is a razor thin final IMO. Appreciate the banter you were able to get in. Even if you win, I certainly wouldn't complain! That's a hellova roster you put together.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Malone to the left of Modano doesn't strike me as any more strange than Modano to the left of Kennedy. I'm on-board inasmuch as I'd agree that a not perfectly ideally placed Malone is still superior to Bill Barber. Unlike IE, I prefer Stastny to Modano (though not by much), but Theo Fleury v. Todd Bertuzzi is not close.

Thing I remember is... Joe Malone got zero-zip credit for defensive presence in the recently-completed ATD. His squad finished ahead of one of the RB teams in the Regular Season, but Beast flipped the script and bounced the Orr/Malone-led Winnipeg Victorias in The Playoffs- and one of his arguments was that Joliat was the only 2-way presence worth mentioning on Winnipeg's line #1.

Well- that's so much spilt-milk, granted- and my assessment of the Maroon 4th line as preferable isn't going to stand or fall on century-plus old impressions of Malone's defensive prowess.

Thing I keep going back to is- I see the Maroons squad, and (having seen more than a little bit of Quenneville in my time) feel like I KNOW how he's going to use that set of personnel.

He's going to ride Chelios like the Percheron he is, because that's what he did with Duncan Keith, (who's studly and fit)- but Chelios is studlier and fitter.

He's going to arrange for a sort of 'equal-temperament' arrangement between Stewart and Leetch, because Stewart's up to handing it- and also because Coach Quenneville did not get where he is today by being stupid.

What I'd like to know is how @BenchBrawl will make clear how Lester Patrick will manage the Wanderers personnel- particularly how much extra load the top-9 Forwards are going to absorb to minimize the presence of that 4th line that he brings to the table. If I did independent research on Patrick, I could probably answer the question myself... but I'd like to listen to it in his own words.

To answer your question, I have no problem sending Barber-Stastny-Bertuzzi against Malone-Modano-Fleury, so my guess is none, since the Maroons are already choosing the match-up 4 games out of 7.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Why the Wanderers should win this series (Recap)

• Crosby is the only elite scorer on the Maroons, and he has been known to struggle against elite defensive centers in the playoffs (Bergeron, Zetterberg). This time he's facing Dave Keon, an elite defensive center himself. If Keon were to be successful, this would put a huge blow on the Maroons' offensive potential and game plan.
• The Wanderers have a much better 2nd pairing, with Cleghorn being head and shoulders over the Maroons' 2nd pairing defensemen. Meanwhile the top pairings are pretty much equal, which gives the Wanderers a major advantage on the bluelines.
• The Maroons are stuck trying to contain the Wanderers, meaning the Wanderers are the one imposing their style and tempo on the games. The Lemieux/Béliveau combo might be possible to contain for some time, but eventually, the combination of elite skills and size will submerge even the greatest opposition.
• The Wanderers top powerplay is so good that any penalty is a major threat to the Maroons. Lemieux is the greatest PP player of all-time (with Orr), and Béliveau is not far behind. With that you add Coffey, a clutch sniper like Bossy and all-around quarterback like Cleghorn, makes this unit unstoppable by even the best PKers.
• The Maroons' 3rd pairing will be exposed to either Mario or Béliveau eventually, and that could turn ugly real quick, real fast, and change the momentum in this series in the blink of an eye.

 

[BenchBrawl]

@BenchBrawl

Good luck brother! This is a razor thin final IMO. Appreciate the banter you were able to get in. Even if you win, I certainly wouldn't complain! That's a hellova roster you put together.

Good luck my man ! Both teams are extremely close. You're always a handful to face and that's why you're such a great GM ! No easy fight against you. This is one of the strongest teams you've ever build for sure. It was very unusual to start with four forwards, and the result is impressive.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

There is no reason to think Leetch [can't log] 24/25.

Gulp.

To answer your question, I have no problem sending Barber-Stastny-Bertuzzi against Malone-Modano-Fleury

Well, that evens the score at one Gulp apiece.

Hope no-one minds if I take 'til the last second to make up my mind on this one...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it feels really weird to see bertuzzi, defensively one of the worst star forwards ever, on a fourth line. and if you're going to have bertuzzi, it also feels weird to not have him in front of the net on your PP, where he was unstoppable until they kareem abdul-jabbared him. ditto the other profoundly flawed player on BB's roster, kevin hatcher. it just seems like a waste if you have to shoulder his liability at ES and not have him on your PP.

both guys wouldn't crack your first unit of course, but with stastny, kane, and barber they would greatly improve the second unit. and second unit is where IE is the most vulnerable, with that ugly carlson/blake pair. (and IE, i don't know much about martinec but why isn't kurri on your second unit PK?)

 

[BenchBrawl]

it feels really weird to see bertuzzi, defensively one of the worst star forwards ever, on a fourth line. and if you're going to have bertuzzi, it also feels weird to not have him in front of the net on your PP, where he was unstoppable until they kareem abdul-jabbared him. ditto the other profoundly flawed player on BB's roster, kevin hatcher. it just seems like a waste if you have to shoulder his liability at ES and not have him on your PP.

both guys wouldn't crack your first unit of course, but with stastny, kane, and barber they would greatly improve the second unit. and second unit is where IE is the most vulnerable, with that ugly carlson/blake pair. (and IE, i don't know much about martinec but why isn't kurri on your second unit PK?)

Good idea, Lester Patrick has taken notes of your suggestions and might pull the trigger on that.

 

[ImporterExporter]

it feels really weird to see bertuzzi, defensively one of the worst star forwards ever, on a fourth line. and if you're going to have bertuzzi, it also feels weird to not have him in front of the net on your PP, where he was unstoppable until they kareem abdul-jabbared him. ditto the other profoundly flawed player on BB's roster, kevin hatcher. it just seems like a waste if you have to shoulder his liability at ES and not have him on your PP.

both guys wouldn't crack your first unit of course, but with stastny, kane, and barber they would greatly improve the second unit. and second unit is where IE is the most vulnerable, with that ugly carlson/blake pair. (and IE, i don't know much about martinec but why isn't kurri on your second unit PK?)

Martinec was one of the best PK'ers ever, from the non NHL players of the 60's, 70's and 80's. Batis and a few others have done studies on Czech and Soviet forwards on the PK and Martinec rates very highly among any of them. We also know now he was regarded well defensively at ES which was a more recent revelation from our brethren on the other side of the globe.

 

[Theokritos]

Wanderers defeat Maroons in 7 games. Details here.