OPPF2020 Finals - Montreal Maroons vs. Montreal Wanderers

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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MONTREAL MAROONS!

0329-nickburton-maroons.png


Coach:

Joel Quenneville

Brad Marchand - Sidney Crosby (C) - Jari Kurri
Cy Denneny - Bobby Clarke (A) - Vladimir Martinec
Joe Malone - Ted Kennedy (A) - Alexander Maltsev
Craig Ramsay - Mike Modano - Theo Fleury

Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
Jack Stewart - Rob Blake
John Carlson - Dan Boyle

Jacques Plante
Billy Smith

Special Teams:

PP 1:

Denneny - Crosby - Kurri
Blake (trigger) - Leetch (QB)

PP2:

Maltsev - Malone/Modano/Clarke (will rotate) - Martinec
Carlson (trigger) - Boyle (QB)

PK 1:

Ramsay - Clarke
Stewart - Chelios

PK 2:

Martinec - Kennedy
Carlson - Blake

Spare PK'ers

Fleury
Marchand
Modano
Kurri


Vs.


Montreal Wanderers
latest


Lester Patrick

Sid Abel (A) - Mario Lemieux - Mike Bossy
Baldy Northcott - Jean Béliveau (C) - Patrick Kane
Zach Parise - Dave Keon - Boris Mikhailov (A)
Bill Barber - Peter Stastny - Todd Bertuzzi

Zdeno Chara - Paul Coffey
Sprague Cleghorn - Art Coulter (A)
Mark Giordano - Kevin Hatcher

Clint Benedict
Roy Worters

PP: Lemieux-Béliveau-Bossy-Cleghorn-Coffey
PP: Mikhailov(net)-Stastny-Kane-Chara-Barber

PK: Keon-Mikhailov-Chara-Coulter
PK: Abel/Lemieux-Northcott-Cleghorn-Hatcher
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,133
6,428
Regular season ranked

# 1 Maroons
vs.
#2 Wanderers

in the playoff final?

The playoffs are a different brand of hockey but continue in the ATDs to invite the same thinking (e.g., vs.x numbers) instead of playoff considerations!
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Regular season ranked

# 1 Maroons
vs.
#2 Wanderers

in the playoff final?

The playoffs are a different brand of hockey but continue in the ATDs to invite the same thinking (e.g., vs.x numbers) instead of playoff considerations!

Regardless if what you say is true in general, both the Maroons and Wanderers have an outstanding cast of playoff performers. So presumably, playoff considerations played a role in their success.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,780
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Oblivion Express
Congrats and good luck @BenchBrawl. This should be a great final!


The Maroons will make some lineup adjustments to maximize defensive posture and head to head match ups:


FORWARDS:


Brad Marchand - Sidney Crosby (C) - Vladimir Martinec

-Martinec swaps with Kurri here. I think the latter is better defensively at ES and with that in mind he fits well on the 2nd line, which will be the primary power on power unit for the Maroons. 200 foot play favors the Maroons as there are more players who fit that description.


Craig Ramsay - Bobby Clarke (A) - Jari Kurri
-
Ramsay moves up to the 2nd line as a defensive stopper vs Bossy, though Denneny will still get shifts here, especially if the Wanderers want to take some runs at Bobby, though Chelios, Black Jack Stewart and Rob Blake are more than capable of putting people on their asses if need be.

This line will go power on power with the Wanderers top line. Clarke is about the perfect C to face off vs Mario. He's a relentless pain in the ass, bordering and sometimes crossing over the dirty line as a player. One of the all time great defensive C and provides a clear advantage in the dot (Mario was never regarded as anything better than average at faceoffs) which is a vital aspect to puck possession. Clarke's primary job will be to harass and hack Mario as much as possible and produce chances on the counter. You have some hothead/lunatics on the Wanderer side and goading them into taking stupid penalties isn't exactly a secret strategy IMO.

You have here, one of the all time great defensive C's AND wingers to counter Lemieux/Bossy. Those 2 are the types who can be irritated physically speaking and Ramsay/Clarke make that possible IMO. Yes, I'm sacrificing offense by moving Ramsay up but believe defensive/counter hockey to be paramount to success here and this move also enhances the depth of scoring for the Maroons by shifting Denneny and Malone down. More on that later. You still have a glue guy, facilitator, and goal scorer so offensively the line is still cohesive. Offense is simply more evenly distributed with this particular set up and with Northcott in the top 6 for the Wanderers I see a pertinent opening to move the chess pieces around, in this case Ramsay in a more important checking role.


Cy Denneny - Ted Kennedy (A) - Alexander Maltsev
-Denneny drops down here and enhances the offensive capabilities considerably. Scoring depth is so important and the Maroons have that in spades.

Kennedy will lock horns with Beliveau, and again, this is a match up that shouldn't get us killed. Kennedy was an incredible gamer. Strong defensively, though not on Clarke's level. Uber physical, always played 110% and honestly plays a physical brand of hockey that should help vs a big man like JB, much like Clarke vs Mario. Kennedy, like Clarke is elite in the dot giving the Maroons another advantage in key face off situations which translates into puck possession. This will also be extremely critical on the PK.

An increased offensive presence to his left, Kennedy is in perfect position to lean on Beliveau and shadow him like a hawk as much as possible, doing the things which he was most known for. Maltsev will still be the main conductor of the line and his wizardry should mesh well with a star spark plug/checker like TK and an upper echelon finisher like Denneny.

Obviously Beliveau is a big advantage offensively speaking down the middle here but Denneny/Maltsev is far more offense than Northcott/Kane.


Joe Malone - Mike Modano - Theo Fleury
-A ringer of a line that could very well be the difference when looking at the forward groups. This would be a passable 2nd line scoring unit IMO but instead they're a depth unit that can skate, score, pester and defend. Modano and Fleury provide good 200 foot play with strong offense for a bottom 6 role. Malone is probably the best pure offensive player of the group and along with the top line the 4th group will be used to push the Wanderers back on their heels with relentless pressure while the 2nd and 3rd lines are more counter units, deployed to maximize ressitance against the top 6 of the Wanderers.



DEFENSEMEN:


Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
-
A wash of top pairings if there ever has been one, though I will advocate for the edge given this unit is less of a defensive liability as Coffey is as close to a black hole as you can get at this stage.

Another aspect to consider is with Coffey certainly going to be giving up some odd man rushes, Chara isn't exactly the fleetest of foot so the Wanderers top pairing is one that I think can be exposed with speed, skill and hockey IQ, which the Maroons have up and down the line up. Defensive positioning I think favors the Maroons as well.

To me the Maroons are slightly more balanced whereas Chara and Coffey are very distinct defensive and offensive only players. Leetch at least PK'd at nearly 50% rate for his career and Chelios is actually one of the very few Dmen since 1960 to play more than 50% on both the PP and PK.

At the end of the day, give me the group that has the best overall player and Conn Smythe winner in crunch time.


Jack Stewart - Rob Blake
-Pain. They can replicate the style of the Wanderers 2nd pairing. Chelios, Stewart, Blake give up nothing in the physicality department when looking at Chara, Cleghorn, Coulter. I do give the edge on this pairing to the Wanderers though as Cleghorn is easily the best overall player, though one who will be routinely pestered by Clarke, Kennedy, Marchand, Fleury, among others for obvious reasons. You needle the players who had a tendency to play stupid.


John Carlson - Dan Boyle
-The Maroons are actually slightly better here IMO. First off, both of these guys are SC winners and battle tested, whereas neither Giordano or Hatcher ever lifted the Cup. Gio especially has a minimal and putrid postseason record. Both Carlson and Boyle are postseason AS's, twice each. This unit can move the puck from either side and each have a role on special teams and quite frankly don't think they're any more of a liability defensively than Gio/Hatcher.


GOALTENDING:

Jacques Plante
Billy Smith

-To me, this is where the series tilts. Each series I've gotten slightly easier match ups head to head in net and this is the biggest gap yet. In a league this size, Benedict is a bottom of the barrel starter where as Plante is upper echelon. I don't think it's outrageous at all to say this is the single biggest gap of the series.

Something to consider is Benedict was also used to playing behind mostly Pete Green led teams who were more slanted towards defensive hockey, which the Wanderers are not. Shot volume will be, IMO, greater than what he was used to in real life, given the make up of the skaters in front of him are very different from the Senators of the 19teens/20's. Can he handle that?

I think Plante will have an overall easier time in terms of consistent action and given he's the much better player, this seems like a big advantage in a final series.


SPECIAL TEAMS:


PP 1:

Denneny - Crosby - Kurri
Blake (trigger) - Leetch (QB)

PP2:

Maltsev - Malone/Modano/Clarke (will rotate) - Martinec
Carlson (trigger) - Boyle (QB)

PK 1:

Ramsay - Clarke
Stewart - Chelios

PK 2:

Martinec - Kennedy
Carlson - Blake


-I don't think it's hard to decipher who stands out where. The Wanderers have an elite PP group. It should strike fear into anyone. They're much better overall, simply put because of Mario, Beliveau, Bossy and Coffey.

With that being said, the Maroons are just as dominant on the kill IMO with a few critical aspects that tilt ST's in our favor.

One, puck possession.


Clarke and Kennedy will be used heavily on the kill, as they should be. Who is going to win the most faceoffs in the Maroon zone (or any zone) when a kill situation arises? This clearly favors Clarke and Kennedy. So right off the bat, possession should favor the Maroons. And gaining possession on ST's is arguably the most critical aspect.

As good as Coffey/Cleghorn is running the blue line, Ramsay-Clarke are just as dominant in their roles. Not only were both prime killers, together they possess counter attacking ability which is rare to see in such gifted PK'ers.

Martinec/Kennedy are studs as 2nd unit players given their own usage and acumen and again, offer more than normal offensive ability going the other way.

So not only do you have to solve a ridiculous amount of PK ability at F for the Maroons, you always have to worry about chances going the other way with a stable of Clarke, Martinec, Kennedy, Ramsay.

Two, physicality down low.

Black Jack Stewart and Chelios were made for the Mario's and Beliveau's of the world. At least as best you can be haha.

Chelios is elite kill. He's very ornery and big enough to not be pushed around. And he'll have no problem getting dirty in srums. Cross checks in the back and arms will happen. Stewart was even bigger/stronger and known for punishing people physically. You'd be hard pressed to find a better combo on D when looking at who the Wanderers are deploying on the PP.

Rob Blake is more of the same on the 2nd unit. Whoever ventures near the net will feel his wrath. Martinec is really the only player who doesn't bring notable physical play to the table here, though as a 2nd unit player he should still be considered very good.

Obviously nobody is going to shut out the Wanderers PP group. But limiting the damage and making life extremely difficult on them is something the Maroons should be able to pull off.


COACHING:

Straight wash. A lot of people's #4 coach ever against a man who more and more people are talking about being 5th overall.

I think Lester Patrick gets a bit too much credit for things that didn't really pertain to coaching directly, like financial contributions, and rule changes. When you look at on ice results, I think longevity easily favors Quenneville and there is an argument to be made that his 3 Cups in 6 seasons with Chicago, 2nd most regular season wins and 3rd most postseason wins all time is every bit as impressive as the 3 Cups that Patrick won from 1925 through 1933.

If you look strictly at coaching accomplishments and leave the rules creations and behind the scenes building aspect of the game, Q COULD be argued over Patrick, though that is a debate for the HoH section if we ever attempt a coaches ranking, which I hope we try.

Either way, I think this is a classic wash. Both are very close in ranking (I would probably have them 4 and 5) and both have teams that should be able to do what each coach was most known for stylistically.

I think this is an extremely close series. The F and D groups are razor thin. The Wanderers possess more firepower in the top 6 but the Maroons have better defensive acumen, especially at F. And scoring depth easily favors the Maroons given Keon, Parise, Barber and Bertuzzi aren't exactly offensive powerhouses. How do you contain these bottom 6 wingers? Denneny, Maltsev, Malone and Fleury, being centered by Kennedy and Modano.

I think the Wanderers stars face tougher hurdles than vice versa.

Mario faces Clarke
Beliveau faces Kennedy
Bossy faces Ramsay

Keon is the only strong defensive C the Wanderers have and the Maroons counter with 4 C's who can all produce, while all playing 200 foot games, ranging from above average to elite in that regard.

On the back end, again, to me this is very close. I would advocate for the Maroons top pairing ever so slightly if for no other reason than it's less of a liability defensively and won't have any issues moving the puck, on either side. Cleghorn gives the Wanderers a leg up on the 2nd pairing. 3rd pairing is slightly in the Maroons favor by my estimation.

And lastly Plante gives the Maroons a pretty big leg up in net. In terms of pure talent/accomplishments/etc I think this is the biggest tilt in the series and why the Maroons will prevail in game 7. IMHO.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Regardless if what you say is true in general, both the Maroons and Wanderers have an outstanding cast of playoff performers. So presumably, playoff considerations played a role in their success.
When these two squads line up on their respective blue-lines before the opening strains of the bilingual rendition of 'O, Canada,' they will bring with them 15+ Smythes/Retro-Smythes- which (interestingly enough) are pretty much equally-distributed between the two teams.

[The plus/non-whole number total is on account of where the H-o-F project & Ultimate Hockey came to different conclusions. Most interesting apropos the personnel here is the 42-43 Retro-Smythe, which goes to Jack Stewart OR Sid Abel, depending on your source...]
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Thanks for starting this up. Congrats and good luck to you as well, @ImporterExporter. I had your team as one of the favorites if not the favorite. I'll make some general comments and respond to your post in a stream-of-consciousness way.

First the blueprint of this series is a classic offense vs. defense, as the Wanderers are more offensively-minded and the Maroons more defensively-minded, with both also being competent at the other.

Both teams sport a pretty sick collection of centers, all the way down to the 4th lines. The Maroons centers are clearly more of a two-way group, though after Lemieux all Wanderer centers are decent defensively (with Keon being elite). However, the Wanderers centers are much better offensively. Clarke, Kennedy and Modano are all competent offensively, but nothing to write home about, which puts a lot of pressure on Crosby to generate offense. The Maroons have excellent wingers throughout, but no true superstar, so again a lot of pressure on Crosby.

A few general comments on each of the Maroons units:

Congrats and good luck @BenchBrawl. This should be a great final!

Brad Marchand - Sidney Crosby (C) - Vladimir Martinec

-Martinec swaps with Kurri here. I think the latter is better defensively at ES and with that in mind he fits well on the 2nd line, which will be the primary power on power unit for the Maroons. 200 foot play favors the Maroons as there are more players who fit that description.

An excellent grinding line, in the good sense of the word, with the Marchand-Crosby chemistry at play. All three players are decent defensively, though none is elite. Classic defense-by-committee unit. In a vacuum there's a lot to like in this trio, but I go back to what I said earlier: As a lot of pressure is put on Crosby to generate offense, his wingers are not that good offensively for a 1st line.

Congrats and good luck @BenchBrawl. This should be a great final!

Craig Ramsay - Bobby Clarke (A) - Jari Kurri
-
Ramsay moves up to the 2nd line as a defensive stopper vs Bossy, though Denneny will still get shifts here, especially if the Wanderers want to take some runs at Bobby, though Chelios, Black Jack Stewart and Rob Blake are more than capable of putting people on their asses if need be.

This line will go power on power with the Wanderers top line. Clarke is about the perfect C to face off vs Mario. He's a relentless pain in the ass, bordering and sometimes crossing over the dirty line as a player. One of the all time great defensive C and provides a clear advantage in the dot (Mario was never regarded as anything better than average at faceoffs) which is a vital aspect to puck possession. Clarke's primary job will be to harass and hack Mario as much as possible and produce chances on the counter. You have some hothead/lunatics on the Wanderer side and goading them into taking stupid penalties isn't exactly a secret strategy IMO.

You have here, one of the all time great defensive C's AND wingers to counter Lemieux/Bossy. Those 2 are the types who can be irritated physically speaking and Ramsay/Clarke make that possible IMO. Yes, I'm sacrificing offense by moving Ramsay up but believe defensive/counter hockey to be paramount to success here and this move also enhances the depth of scoring for the Maroons by shifting Denneny and Malone down. More on that later. You still have a glue guy, facilitator, and goal scorer so offensively the line is still cohesive. Offense is simply more evenly distributed with this particular set up and with Northcott in the top 6 for the Wanderers I see a pertinent opening to move the chess pieces around, in this case Ramsay in a more important checking role.

I see you want to match-up that line against Mario's, which fair enough, is a good strategy. However, you had to break up the good Denneny-Clarke combo to cover for Bossy, and in the process you stripped Clarke of any protector. The Wanderers blueline is incredibly tough, with Chara, Cleghorn and Coulter all being elite physical defensemen that won't put up with any of Clarke's antics. This will stop Clarke from playing his full game, as he will have to psychologically restrict himself. Also, Ramsay was an elite PKer, but was he elite at ES? I'm sure he was good, playing with Don Luce, but I remember his ES defense being questioned in the past (I really don't know).

Still, it would be an interesting match-up to watch. By moving up Ramsay, you made this line a reactive one, not an active one. Abel-Mario-Bossy will set the tempo and how much the Clarke line will be able to stop them remains to be seen.

Congrats and good luck @BenchBrawl. This should be a great final!


Cy Denneny - Ted Kennedy (A) - Alexander Maltsev
-Denneny drops down here and enhances the offensive capabilities considerably. Scoring depth is so important and the Maroons have that in spades.

Kennedy will lock horns with Beliveau, and again, this is a match up that shouldn't get us killed. Kennedy was an incredible gamer. Strong defensively, though not on Clarke's level. Uber physical, always played 110% and honestly plays a physical brand of hockey that should help vs a big man like JB, much like Clarke vs Mario. Kennedy, like Clarke is elite in the dot giving the Maroons another advantage in key face off situations which translates into puck possession. This will also be extremely critical on the PK.

An increased offensive presence to his left, Kennedy is in perfect position to lean on Beliveau and shadow him like a hawk as much as possible, doing the things which he was most known for. Maltsev will still be the main conductor of the line and his wizardry should mesh well with a star spark plug/checker like TK and an upper echelon finisher like Denneny.

Obviously Beliveau is a big advantage offensively speaking down the middle here but Denneny/Maltsev is far more offense than Northcott/Kane.

You chose Kennedy vs. Béliveau, which by deduction implies you also chose to put Crosby, on whom the Maroons will rely a lot for offense, against Dave Keon. I feel like Keon will excel against Crosby, as Sid doesn't have the characteristics that made Keon struggle (mostly, being big like Béliveau).

I like Denneny with Kennedy (even their names fit!), as Kennedy is a bit like a Frank Nighbor with less playmaking and less defense but more grinding. I'm a huge fan of Kennedy here, and it was a great pick up for you during the draft, giving you an incredible 1-2-3 punch at center.

Looking at the match-up in particular: Northcott vs. Maltsev, Kane vs. Denneny, Béliveau vs. Kennedy, I think the Maroons will get outmatched, since Northcott will cover and crush Maltsev (who was a poor big game player), and Béliveau, like Lemieux, is deceptively fast, which will give some trouble to the slow-skating Kennedy. Kane and Denneny were great offensive contributors to the dynasty of their day, but Kane clearly surpassed Denneny by now, as Denneny, despite his offensive prowess, was never considered the greatest player in the game like Kane was.

DEFENSEMEN:


Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
-
A wash of top pairings if there ever has been one, though I will advocate for the edge given this unit is less of a defensive liability as Coffey is as close to a black hole as you can get at this stage.

Another aspect to consider is with Coffey certainly going to be giving up some odd man rushes, Chara isn't exactly the fleetest of foot so the Wanderers top pairing is one that I think can be exposed with speed, skill and hockey IQ, which the Maroons have up and down the line up. Defensive positioning I think favors the Maroons as well.

To me the Maroons are slightly more balanced whereas Chara and Coffey are very distinct defensive and offensive only players. Leetch at least PK'd at nearly 50% rate for his career and Chelios is actually one of the very few Dmen since 1960 to play more than 50% on both the PP and PK.

At the end of the day, give me the group that has the best overall player and Conn Smythe winner in crunch time.


Jack Stewart - Rob Blake
-Pain. They can replicate the style of the Wanderers 2nd pairing. Chelios, Stewart, Blake give up nothing in the physicality department when looking at Chara, Cleghorn, Coulter. I do give the edge on this pairing to the Wanderers though as Cleghorn is easily the best overall player, though one who will be routinely pestered by Clarke, Kennedy, Marchand, Fleury, among others for obvious reasons. You needle the players who had a tendency to play stupid.


John Carlson - Dan Boyle
-The Maroons are actually slightly better here IMO. First off, both of these guys are SC winners and battle tested, whereas neither Giordano or Hatcher ever lifted the Cup. Gio especially has a minimal and putrid postseason record. Both Carlson and Boyle are postseason AS's, twice each. This unit can move the puck from either side and each have a role on special teams and quite frankly don't think they're any more of a liability defensively than Gio/Hatcher.

I agree our top pairing is a wash. In a vacuum I probably prefer yours, not in terms of value but just in terms of fit, even if mine is also a great fit. As for Coffey, let's not forget the great Coffey-Lemieux chemistry that amazed people in the early-1990s in Pittsburgh, which is why I took Coffey. Coffey back there will give a lot of trouble for the Maroons to stop Mario, even if they throw Clarke and Ramsay at them.

You bringing up the Conn Smythe is a bit misleading IMO, in that yes, Leetch had an amazing run in 1994, but Paul Coffey was known not only as an excellent playoff performer, but to step up his defensive game as well in the post-season. Furthermore, tough to win the Conn Smythe on the 1980's Edmonton Oilers or 1990's Pittsburgh Penguins. Coffey's overall body of work in the playoffs is arguably better than Leetch.

I think the Wanderers have a large advantage on the 2nd pairings. Cleghorn is basically Chelios but more indisciplined, and the Maroons have nobody of that level here. Coulter is underrated, and not so much separates him from Blake or even Stewart for that matter. Also, the Maroons pairing is tough and physical, but the Wanderers' even moreso ! Furthermore, the Wanderers have a much tougher and bigger group of forwards, so the pain will be felt a lot more by the Maroons forwards.

For all the liability on the Wanderers blueline, both Carlson and Boyle are not very reliable defensively. I think Giordano is clearly better defensively, by a large margin, than any of the 3rd pairing Ds in this series. Both Carlson and Boyle feel like overkilled ; powerplay specialists who would be fine as the offensive conscience if partnered with a stay-at-home D.

Even Rob Blake is not that good defensively at ES, so overall the Maroons, for all the talk about Coffey, don't really have an impressive blueline defensively-speaking. They have Chelios and Stewart and that's it. The Wanderers have Chara, Cleghorn, Coulter and to a lesser extent Giordano.

If the Maroons are protecting a lead, they can put Stewart-Chelios together, but who comes on the ice after that? Leetch-Blake? Weak !

GOALTENDING:

Jacques Plante
Billy Smith


-To me, this is where the series tilts. Each series I've gotten slightly easier match ups head to head in net and this is the biggest gap yet. In a league this size, Benedict is a bottom of the barrel starter where as Plante is upper echelon. I don't think it's outrageous at all to say this is the single biggest gap of the series.

Something to consider is Benedict was also used to playing behind mostly Pete Green led teams who were more slanted towards defensive hockey, which the Wanderers are not. Shot volume will be, IMO, greater than what he was used to in real life, given the make up of the skaters in front of him are very different from the Senators of the 19teens/20's. Can he handle that?

I think Plante will have an overall easier time in terms of consistent action and given he's the much better player, this seems like a big advantage in a final series.


SPECIAL TEAMS:


PP 1:

Denneny - Crosby - Kurri
Blake (trigger) - Leetch (QB)


PP2:

Maltsev - Malone/Modano/Clarke (will rotate) - Martinec
Carlson (trigger) - Boyle (QB)


PK 1:

Ramsay - Clarke
Stewart - Chelios


PK 2:

Martinec - Kennedy
Carlson - Blake


-I don't think it's hard to decipher who stands out where. The Wanderers have an elite PP group. It should strike fear into anyone. They're much better overall, simply put because of Mario, Beliveau, Bossy and Coffey.

With that being said, the Maroons are just as dominant on the kill IMO with a few critical aspects that tilt ST's in our favor.

One, puck possession.


Clarke and Kennedy will be used heavily on the kill, as they should be. Who is going to win the most faceoffs in the Maroon zone (or any zone) when a kill situation arises? This clearly favors Clarke and Kennedy. So right off the bat, possession should favor the Maroons. And gaining possession on ST's is arguably the most critical aspect.

As good as Coffey/Cleghorn is running the blue line, Ramsay-Clarke are just as dominant in their roles. Not only were both prime killers, together they possess counter attacking ability which is rare to see in such gifted PK'ers.

Martinec/Kennedy are studs as 2nd unit players given their own usage and acumen and again, offer more than normal offensive ability going the other way.

So not only do you have to solve a ridiculous amount of PK ability at F for the Maroons, you always have to worry about chances going the other way with a stable of Clarke, Martinec, Kennedy, Ramsay.

Two, physicality down low.

Black Jack Stewart and Chelios were made for the Mario's and Beliveau's of the world. At least as best you can be haha.

Chelios is elite kill. He's very ornery and big enough to not be pushed around. And he'll have no problem getting dirty in srums. Cross checks in the back and arms will happen. Stewart was even bigger/stronger and known for punishing people physically. You'd be hard pressed to find a better combo on D when looking at who the Wanderers are deploying on the PP.

Rob Blake is more of the same on the 2nd unit. Whoever ventures near the net will feel his wrath. Martinec is really the only player who doesn't bring notable physical play to the table here, though as a 2nd unit player he should still be considered very good.

Obviously nobody is going to shut out the Wanderers PP group. But limiting the damage and making life extremely difficult on them is something the Maroons should be able to pull off.


COACHING:

Straight wash. A lot of people's #4 coach ever against a man who more and more people are talking about being 5th overall.

I think Lester Patrick gets a bit too much credit for things that didn't really pertain to coaching directly, like financial contributions, and rule changes. When you look at on ice results, I think longevity easily favors Quenneville and there is an argument to be made that his 3 Cups in 6 seasons with Chicago, 2nd most regular season wins and 3rd most postseason wins all time is every bit as impressive as the 3 Cups that Patrick won from 1925 through 1933.

If you look strictly at coaching accomplishments and leave the rules creations and behind the scenes building aspect of the game, Q COULD be argued over Patrick, though that is a debate for the HoH section if we ever attempt a coaches ranking, which I hope we try.

Either way, I think this is a classic wash. Both are very close in ranking (I would probably have them 4 and 5) and both have teams that should be able to do what each coach was most known for stylistically.

I agree that Plante is a big advantage here. I think he's the 2nd greatest goalie of all-time. Benedict is clearly not near his level, though at least he was just as successful in the post-season. They also both had some success after leaving their dynastic teams, so in a way their career arc is similar.

The Maroons have an OK powerplay, though obviously this is still a big advantage for the Wanderers.

Thankfully the Maroons have a truly excellent 1st PK unit, elite really. It would be fun to watch this set-up face each other off. One point though: The Maroons have an elite PK, but two components on it, Clarke and Chelios, are likely to be the ones penalized.

I'm fine with considering Quenneville at Patrick's level more or less. I think both teams fit with their coach well.

Physicality down-low: I agree that the Maroons have some good physical defensemen, but the Wanderers forward group is really big and physical. Abel is an elite board player, and Mario is 6 ft 5. After Mario you go to Béliveau, who was 6 ft 3 in the 1950's, making them a nightmare for defensemen to face. Furthermore, Northcott was 6 ft in the 1930's, which makes him near the tallest forward in the league at the time, and very physical to boot ! Then you have other support like Barber and Bertuzzi. But the main point is that, the Wanderers defense is even more physical than the Maroons, with Chara, Cleghorn and Coulter forming a terrifying trio. The Maroons forwards are not that big. They have Denneny, and who else? The Maroons forwards wil ltake a whole lot of punishment, especially the Crosby line on whom the Maroons rely a lot for offense, that will have to deal with very strong and physical Ds.

Overall

Now I nitpicked a whole lot of shit, but ultimately the Maroons are a damn fine team. One of the greatest teams you ever drafted IMO.

As good as the Maroons are defensively, I think the Wanderers offense will finally crack the fortress, especially given that the Maroons' blueline is a bit of a swiss cheese: full of holes or at least semi-holes. Rob Blake is not my definition of a D I want facing Lemieux and Béliveau. Yes he's big, but he's not that good defensively to face players of that caliber. Chelios and Stewart will be overplayed and burn out. Carlson-Boyle is a weakness.

Also, I'm not impressed with the way the Maroons' offense is distributed throughout their forward group. Yes it is a deep group, strong offensive depth, but lacking much game-breaking talent outside Crosby. Then Malone wasted on the 4th line too.

The Wanderers are a more physical team, both on the blueline and upfront, and since the Maroons are a grinding kind of team, this will make it difficult for them to execute their defensive gameplan. Clarke will get abused by the Wanderers' D, and will struggle against a player like Mario, who can outcompete any defensive center and can't be intimidated.

The Wanderers' blueline is more suited to their style of play (offense) than the Maroon's blueline is for theirs (defense).

Should also be said both teams have a great collection of playoff performers, so we can expect both to show up in the greatest way as the series progress. The same is true of leadership, as both teams have elite leaders through and through.

Keon vs. Crosby will be a key match-up, as well as Mario vs. Clarke.

I think the Maroons are strong enough to resist for a while, but will ultimately be submerged by the Wanderers offense ; especially as Mario is supported by Coffey, and Béliveau is supported by Cleghorn.
 
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There is a weak offensive player in the top 6 for the Wanderers (Northcott), which is why the move was made to put Ramsay as 2LW. The Maroons can sacrifice some offense in the name of getting a prime defensive matchup we want.

Nobody is going to shut down a top line of Abel-Mario-Bossy over the course of 4 to 7 games. Simply won't happen. BUT, Bobby Clarke and Craig Ramsay represent the toughest test yet and I believe will limit the damage in ways other teams couldn't. You're not just talking good defensive players, you're talking about 2 of the best all time at their positions. Even Abel is up against a pretty good D player in Kurri who was good enough going that way to be a 2 time Selke finalist.

Moreover, Mario and Bossy are in no way physical players. Mario could be irritated by players like Clarke. Bossy, IMO, can be pushed into a perimeter role. He'll get leaned on hard by Ramsay/Denneny and Black Jack Stewart when he gets lower in the zone.

You mention that the plan to use Clarke and Kennedy lines against the Mario/Beliveau units as "reactive".

That's exactly what Quennville would want IMO. You'd be crazy to try and match O for O when the other team runs Mario and Beliveau as their 1-2. And the top line especially is simply oozing with offensive acumen, no matter which way you slice it.

The 2nd line of the Wanderers could have been matched offensively had I kept Denneny there but again, the Maroons have so much scoring depth, it makes way too much sense not to counter Mario/Beliveau with 2 lines who can defend at a high level + score going the other way.

I'd wager Ramsay's ES scoring is not much lower than Northcott given Ramsay was almost never used on the PP. And Clarke/Kurri provides plenty of offense/playmaking/goal scoring on the counter. One odd man break may be all it takes there. And with Coffey/Cleghorn on the back end for the Wanderers, that's another reason to think it will happen a few times at least.

It's no different than Denneny-Kennedy-Maltsev taking on the Beliveau line. The Maroons have the matchup they want against Beliveau and retain more than enough offense to keep the Wanderers honest.

And now a critical part of the evaluation:

Most of the Wanderers offense comes from the top 6. Mikhailov and Stastny the only real offensive threats in the bottom 6.

Unfortunately for the Wanderers, the Maroons are simply loaded offensively in the bottom 6. It bridges the gap you see in the top 6 and again, the Maroons also possess numerous quality defensive F's

With Ramsay starting on the 2nd line the Maroons can now roll a bottom 6 of:

Denneny-Kennedy-Maltsev
Malone-Modano-Fleury

Ted Kennedy is the "weakest" offensive player with a 7 year score of 78.8 and we know how much he raised his game, especially offensively in the postseason and has extremely good 3rd line wingers to work with here.

There isn't a player in that group of 6 who isn't capable of producing offensively. You have premium checking, goal scoring, playmaking, face off ability, etc, etc.

And again, do not forget the big advantage the Maroons have in the dot with Clarke/Kennedy vs Mario/Beliveau.

Crosby proved he could get by against the rough stuff during the back to back titles. I think Keon does present a tough challenge but it's not one I worry about as much as the Maroons #1 line simply possesses far more offense collectively and I'm not sure who's going to be the facilitator for the Wanderers 3rd line. I think they can and will bog down as you don't really have a top shelf handler of the puck.

I think the Crosby line will have success in part because of those things, especially with the cycle as the chemistry between he and Marchand is well documented, even in a smaller sample size. While neither are big players, they are both notorious for being extremely hard to get off the puck, Sid especially. Martinec is a wizard and gifted finisher which relieves Crosby from having to take on a greater role in that regard.

Crosby likes to play with high IQ players, above all else. Marchand, despite being a rat asshole at times, has a ton of hockey IQ and Martinec certainly reads like a player who had that in spades, at the very least offensively. And Sid is someone who plays well on or off the puck. His IQ, timing and ability to find openings whether he has the biscuit are integral parts of why he's been so good, for so long offensively.
 

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Having 4 lines that can score is a big reason why I think folks are voting for the Maroons.

It's extremely rare to see a squad that has the defensive chops at different spots in the F group, while still retaining the ability to push teams backwards on every shift.

Physicality is more of an issue for the stars of the Wanderers than Maroons. Mario, Bossy, Coffey, Kane are all finesse types. Even though some of the Maroon F's are smaller, most don't lack the ability to play in traffic and against physical presences.

Marchand plays a fearless game. Crosby has been beaten up and targeted his entire career and has largely done fine outside of being run (2011) or taking a freak slap shot off his jaw (2013). His ability on the puck is second to none over the last 10+ years, IMO. It's incredibly difficult to remove him from the puck, a testament to his physical strength, especially lower body. Martinec was routinely abused and despite that almost always seemed to respond well. He drove the Soviets nuts in that regard.

Clarke is Clarke. Not big, but plays like a giant. Ramsay's best attributes were his checking and positional play. Kurri held up well in a rough time period, but he's certainly in the finesse camp like a Bossy would be, though Bossy was worn out of the league by age 30.

Kennedy was uber physical. Denneny was quite physical, again, not a large human, but played well above his listed size and was a noted pugilist. Fleury's exploits as a buzz saw are well known, again despite being small.

Next up, I don't think the top pairing for the Maroons will be overworked at all.

Chelios is the best defensemen in the series and even though they didn't start tracking TOI until he was 37 years old, his ability to log big minutes was evident by the 25 to 27 minutes a night averages you see, which is a lot for someone of that age. One would assume he was probably getting close to 30 minutes during his prime years with Montreal/Chicago. His durability and longevity should be considered legendary given he was still a highly productive player into his 40's, playing 20+ minutes a night.

Same thing with Leetch who was pushing 30 minutes a night in 98-99. Sure, they're not Doug Harvey or Ray Bourque but both of those guys, especially Chelios proved they could handle big #1 minutes.

Collectively I don't think there is much difference offensively when you factor in the gap between Chelios and Chara. Leetch is one of the few modern Dmen who isn't blown out the water by Coffey (88.1 to 73.7).

Both Stewart and Blake pass for #3 and #4 players here. You'd have identify a pretty subpar 2nd pairing to think the top pairing is going to be worked into exhaustion.

Black Jack Stewart was the #1 in Detroit for years. His strength and endurance is well documented. And while Blake is probably only average defensively at ES, Stewart is air tight in that regard. There isn't a below average defensive player on the Maroon blue line until you get down to Boyle IMO.

You can point to the #1 overall blueliner on the Wanderers and circle a weak defensive player. I think Coffey will get caught up ice throughout the series and don't think Chara has the foot speed to save the day when that happens. Cleghorn certainly seems like a rambunctious offensive player, beyond being a hothead himself. His style was headlong rushes up the ice. He's not weak defensively by any stretch but as someone who routinely played well up in the O zone, I think there are some chances for counters.

IMO you're asking Chara and Coulter to shoulder more of the defensive burden (than Chelios and Stewart) whereas Leetch and Blake, while in no way plus defensive players, aren't really liabilities either. There aren't many plus defensive F's on the Wanderers so you don't have near the buffer that the Maroons do with the Clarke's, Ramsay's, Kennedy's, Kurri's, etc. Even guys like Crosby, Modano, Marchand, Fleury, Martinec should be considered average/above average defensive players. There isn't a C you can point to on the Maroons and say "he's weak in the dot and can't play 200 foot hockey". The only C on the Wanderers that should be considered a true 200 foot player is Keon and to a lesser extent Beliveau. Keon is very weak though from an offensive standpoint in a 12 team league.

And again, that top pairing, any pairing for the Maroons will always be out with a F group who can play well above the bar offensively. The blue line doesn't have to carry the load on any shift, regardless of whether you're looking at the 1st or 4th forward group.

And as scary as Chara, Cleghorn, and Coulter are from a physicality standpoint, Chelios, Stewart, and Blake give up very little in that regard. In fact, the former trio are more likely to spend time in the penalty box.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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A few stream-of-consciousness thoughts...

Bench Brawl: I think Crosby's not as small as you seem to think he is.
ImporterExporter: I think Kennedy's not as big as you think he is. [Not even era-adjusted...] (Plays big, shows up massively in Playoffs- okay... so he has that in common with Keon.)

Discoveries- Chara was penalized a lot in the Islanders/Senators portion of his career... but he did have a nice 'wise-up' curve once he settled in in Boston.
Coulter was penalized more than I thought he was. Ordinal rank v ordinal rank, however, not a lot of space between Coulter and Stewart in that regard.

I wish I could determine whether I'm more skeeved out by the Maroons 3rd pairing of Carlson Boyle, or the Wanderers 4th line of Barber Stastny Bertuzzi.
 
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Era adjusted Kennedy would be 6' or 6'1'' and roughly 200 lbs. Not huge, but certainly not small and more importantly as I alluded to in the more recent write ups, size is somewhat overrated in hockey. Physicality and willingness to engage in the tough going is more important IMHO. Also how well a player held up throughout their career.
 

BenchBrawl

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There is a weak offensive player in the top 6 for the Wanderers (Northcott), which is why the move was made to put Ramsay as 2LW. The Maroons can sacrifice some offense in the name of getting a prime defensive matchup we want.

Nobody is going to shut down a top line of Abel-Mario-Bossy over the course of 4 to 7 games. Simply won't happen. BUT, Bobby Clarke and Craig Ramsay represent the toughest test yet and I believe will limit the damage in ways other teams couldn't. You're not just talking good defensive players, you're talking about 2 of the best all time at their positions. Even Abel is up against a pretty good D player in Kurri who was good enough going that way to be a 2 time Selke finalist.

Moreover, Mario and Bossy are in no way physical players. Mario could be irritated by players like Clarke. Bossy, IMO, can be pushed into a perimeter role. He'll get leaned on hard by Ramsay/Denneny and Black Jack Stewart when he gets lower in the zone.

I don't buy that Mike Bossy is gonna be pushed to be a perimeter player. Don't forget that we're talking about a duo that were both crazy good at scoring goals in the playoffs. Lemieux is Lemieux and I don't think Clarke's antics is gonna bother him much here, and Bossy scored 17 goals three years in a row. Clarke, for all his defensive acumen, wasn't necessarily that good in the post-season, where it was Parent who did the greatest work for the Flyers.

You mention that the plan to use Clarke and Kennedy lines against the Mario/Beliveau units as "reactive".

That's exactly what Quennville would want IMO. You'd be crazy to try and match O for O when the other team runs Mario and Beliveau as their 1-2. And the top line especially is simply oozing with offensive acumen, no matter which way you slice it.

The 2nd line of the Wanderers could have been matched offensively had I kept Denneny there but again, the Maroons have so much scoring depth, it makes way too much sense not to counter Mario/Beliveau with 2 lines who can defend at a high level + score going the other way.

I'd wager Ramsay's ES scoring is not much lower than Northcott given Ramsay was almost never used on the PP. And Clarke/Kurri provides plenty of offense/playmaking/goal scoring on the counter. One odd man break may be all it takes there. And with Coffey/Cleghorn on the back end for the Wanderers, that's another reason to think it will happen a few times at least.

It's not clear to me why Ramsay would be better than Northcott defensively for that matter. Northcott led his team in scoring when the Maroons won the cup, so at least he proved he could bring it in the post-season.

I really don't know what you're implying with Cleghorn, as if he was a defensive liability. This couldn't be further from the truth, as Cleghorn was one of the best defensive defenseman in the world, just a tier below the very best like Gerard and Moose Johnson. Cleghorn is one of the most complete defenseman of all-time. Only indiscipline made him rank below a guy like Chelios, and even I don't think that,s fair (you can easily check my ranking of both in the Top 100 Project: I had them exactly #42 and #43, with Cleghorn ahead).

It's no different than Denneny-Kennedy-Maltsev taking on the Beliveau line. The Maroons have the matchup they want against Beliveau and retain more than enough offense to keep the Wanderers honest.

And now a critical part of the evaluation:

Most of the Wanderers offense comes from the top 6. Mikhailov and Stastny the only real offensive threats in the bottom 6.

Unfortunately for the Wanderers, the Maroons are simply loaded offensively in the bottom 6. It bridges the gap you see in the top 6 and again, the Maroons also possess numerous quality defensive F's

With Ramsay starting on the 2nd line the Maroons can now roll a bottom 6 of:

Denneny-Kennedy-Maltsev
Malone-Modano-Fleury

Ted Kennedy is the "weakest" offensive player with a 7 year score of 78.8 and we know how much he raised his game, especially offensively in the postseason and has extremely good 3rd line wingers to work with here.

There isn't a player in that group of 6 who isn't capable of producing offensively. You have premium checking, goal scoring, playmaking, face off ability, etc, etc.

And again, do not forget the big advantage the Maroons have in the dot with Clarke/Kennedy vs Mario/Beliveau.

Yeah, the Wanderers have a lot of their offense tied to their Top 6, but then the Maroons use their 2nd and 3rd line trying to contain it. Their offense is going to suffer a great deal in this process. Furthermore, Dave Keon was a clutch scorer in the playoffs, and as you said I have Mikhailov on my 3rd line. Then Stastny, and even Barber isn't half bad. I don't see the big deal here ; you have more offense from the bottom 6 but way less in the Top 6. By focusing on my Top 6 you lose offense too.

Crosby proved he could get by against the rough stuff during the back to back titles. I think Keon does present a tough challenge but it's not one I worry about as much as the Maroons #1 line simply possesses far more offense collectively and I'm not sure who's going to be the facilitator for the Wanderers 3rd line. I think they can and will bog down as you don't really have a top shelf handler of the puck.

Sorry If I left the impression Crosby couldn't handle a physical game. Not what I meant. I think Keon is a perfect match against Sid though. Both great playoff performers and skater, Keon is gonna harass him to death. Furthermore, Keon and Mikhailov are gonna forecheck like hell so we can expect the Crosby line to waste a few shift stuck in the defensive zone, when the forecheck was successful.
 

BenchBrawl

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Having 4 lines that can score is a big reason why I think folks are voting for the Maroons.

It's extremely rare to see a squad that has the defensive chops at different spots in the F group, while still retaining the ability to push teams backwards on every shift.

Physicality is more of an issue for the stars of the Wanderers than Maroons. Mario, Bossy, Coffey, Kane are all finesse types. Even though some of the Maroon F's are smaller, most don't lack the ability to play in traffic and against physical presences.

Marchand plays a fearless game. Crosby has been beaten up and targeted his entire career and has largely done fine outside of being run (2011) or taking a freak slap shot off his jaw (2013). His ability on the puck is second to none over the last 10+ years, IMO. It's incredibly difficult to remove him from the puck, a testament to his physical strength, especially lower body. Martinec was routinely abused and despite that almost always seemed to respond well. He drove the Soviets nuts in that regard.

Clarke is Clarke. Not big, but plays like a giant. Ramsay's best attributes were his checking and positional play. Kurri held up well in a rough time period, but he's certainly in the finesse camp like a Bossy would be, though Bossy was worn out of the league by age 30.

Kennedy was uber physical. Denneny was quite physical, again, not a large human, but played well above his listed size and was a noted pugilist. Fleury's exploits as a buzz saw are well known, again despite being small.

Nonesense. Mario is a finesse player but he's still 6 ft 5. It is physically tiring to play against such a player. The same is true of Béliveau who is even more physical than Mario. Than you have Abel and Northcott, both very physical players that can grind you. And then Keon and Mikhailov forechecking like mad.

Next up, I don't think the top pairing for the Maroons will be overworked at all.

Chelios is the best defensemen in the series and even though they didn't start tracking TOI until he was 37 years old, his ability to log big minutes was evident by the 25 to 27 minutes a night averages you see, which is a lot for someone of that age. One would assume he was probably getting close to 30 minutes during his prime years with Montreal/Chicago. His durability and longevity should be considered legendary given he was still a highly productive player into his 40's, playing 20+ minutes a night.

Same thing with Leetch who was pushing 30 minutes a night in 98-99. Sure, they're not Doug Harvey or Ray Bourque but both of those guys, especially Chelios proved they could handle big #1 minutes.

Collectively I don't think there is much difference offensively when you factor in the gap between Chelios and Chara. Leetch is one of the few modern Dmen who isn't blown out the water by Coffey (88.1 to 73.7).

Both Stewart and Blake pass for #3 and #4 players here. You'd have identify a pretty subpar 2nd pairing to think the top pairing is going to be worked into exhaustion.

Black Jack Stewart was the #1 in Detroit for years. His strength and endurance is well documented. And while Blake is probably only average defensively at ES, Stewart is air tight in that regard. There isn't a below average defensive player on the Maroon blue line until you get down to Boyle IMO.

You can point to the #1 overall blueliner on the Wanderers and circle a weak defensive player. I think Coffey will get caught up ice throughout the series and don't think Chara has the foot speed to save the day when that happens. Cleghorn certainly seems like a rambunctious offensive player, beyond being a hothead himself. His style was headlong rushes up the ice. He's not weak defensively by any stretch but as someone who routinely played well up in the O zone, I think there are some chances for counters.

IMO you're asking Chara and Coulter to shoulder more of the defensive burden (than Chelios and Stewart) whereas Leetch and Blake, while in no way plus defensive players, aren't really liabilities either. There aren't many plus defensive F's on the Wanderers so you don't have near the buffer that the Maroons do with the Clarke's, Ramsay's, Kennedy's, Kurri's, etc. Even guys like Crosby, Modano, Marchand, Fleury, Martinec should be considered average/above average defensive players. There isn't a C you can point to on the Maroons and say "he's weak in the dot and can't play 200 foot hockey". The only C on the Wanderers that should be considered a true 200 foot player is Keon and to a lesser extent Beliveau. Keon is very weak though from an offensive standpoint in a 12 team league.

And again, that top pairing, any pairing for the Maroons will always be out with a F group who can play well above the bar offensively. The blue line doesn't have to carry the load on any shift, regardless of whether you're looking at the 1st or 4th forward group.

And as scary as Chara, Cleghorn, and Coulter are from a physicality standpoint, Chelios, Stewart, and Blake give up very little in that regard. In fact, the former trio are more likely to spend time in the penalty box.

Just have the impression you're continuously underrating Sprague Cleghorn here. You said I'm asking Chara and Coulter to shoulder the defensive burder ; well no, I'm asking them AND Cleghorn to shoulder it (and Giordano to a lesser extent). Why leave Cleghorn out of it?

I don't think Chelios and Leetch are as good offensively as Chara and Coffey based on a "in-committe" argument. Coffey's offense is game-breaking even at this level, and he has the chemistry with Mario. His offensive impact will be huge, nothing to be compared to the Maroons' 1st pairing. Also as the playoff progresses, Coffey is just not that much of a defensive liability any longer. Guy was a recognized clutch performer and we're in the Finals and I expect him to bring his A game if the Wanderers made him that far. You,re expecting too much errors from Coffey, just won't happen so often.

I disagree that your trio doesn't give much in terms of physicality. Both Cleghorn and Chara were the most feared players of their day .

While you underestimate Cleghorn I have the opposite outlook, I think Cleghorn is a huge reason why the Wanderers will win this series as he provide the Wanderers with a top defenseman on both pairing, something that isn't true of the Maroons.

The Maroons have good forwards to face Wanderers Mario/Béliveau combo but the defensemen aren't that good, and since they'll be forced to use Chelios and Stewart against them, Patrick can use that information to make sure the Crosby line isn't backed as strongly as he should.
 

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Forward discussion:

I don't think the 2nd and 3rd lines of the Maroons will "suffer greatly" from playing a counter game against the Mario and Jean B lines. Again, it's about being smart in how you utilize match ups. Going head to head and trying to load up offensively is really a fools errand against those folks. The top 6 of the Wanderers is loaded offensively. No other way to slice it. With that being said:

It's not like Ramsay-Clarke-Kurri and Denneny-Kennedy-Maltsev are lacking offensively, especially the latter. This isn't a checking line vs scoring line. It's a 200 foot line vs a scoring line.

Both of those units can do everything you'd want out of a traditional scoring line. Ramsay and Clarke both provide great checking ability. Clarke is a fantastic facilitator of the puck. Kurri a gifted goal scorer and even Ramsay provides solid ES scoring #'s despite playing a non offensive role in real life. He was good enough to score 20+ goals in 8 straight years and he never played with a Clarke/Kurri as his linemates as far as I know. I don't find much of a difference between he and Northcott in terms of all around ability. I think Northcott is probably slightly better (not sure about ES) offensively but Ramsay is slightly better defensively.

My 3rd line has more scoring ability on the wings (Denneny/Maltsev vs Northcott/Kane). So your 2nd line certainly won't be hemming my 3rd line in the defensive zone all series which is what you'd need to do to make us "suffer greatly" from an offensive standpoint.

Again, I'm not saying the Maroons are going to shut out the Wanderers scoring lines. But I do think the Maroons have the defensive chops+offensive ability to make life more difficult than any other previous matchup, namely against the 2 biggest stars the Wanderers have in Mario/Jean. Bobby Clarke and Ted Kennedy are about as spot on match ups for those 2 as you can get.

Remember Clarke and Kennedy are both quite capable offensive players, especially Clarke. This isn't Guy Carbonneau or Bob Gainey. Those are the types of players who would be doing a lot of work in their own end because they don't posses the ability to carry/cycle the puck. Clarke and Kennedy, especially with the wingers they have alongside them are more than capable of producing good offense, especially that Kennedy line.

Hopefully the voters are taking into account this isn't a traditional scoring line vs checking line matchup. The Maroons scoring lines are going to have to defend at times and guys like Mario, Bossy, Kane aren't exactly shutdown or even net positive defensive players.

So one, I think the 2nd and 3rd lines of the Maroons will score goals during the series and then on top of it you still have to contend with the 1st and 4th lines, both of whom will be pushing more aggressively on the offensive and face far less resistance.

Cleghorn:

I never said that SC was a defensive liability. Just simply that his rushing style lends itself to potentially being caught out of position, especially against a team that can defend well across 4 forward lines and top 4 on the blue line. No matter what forward line Cleghorn is out against, there is a legit threat of offense going the other way. Very different that the traditional matchups one normally sees. Taking deep dives into the Maroon zone lends itself to giving up counters given the puck moving ability of the D and offensive depth of the F's.

Coffey and Cleghorn are both types who will get very deep in the offensive zone based on history/playing style, acting more or less like an extra F. That is unlike Leetch and Blake who are more perimeter type offensive players AFAIK. Both can shoot from distance, especially Blake. Leetch was a fantastic passer with high offensive IQ. And with the offensive depth the Maroons do possess they don't need to activate deep into the offensive zone much. Pinching down is not something Q is going to push, especially when the Mario/Beliveau lines are out. Keep the puck in front of you.

More to come later.....
 

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Special Teams:

The Maroons have the best kill the Wanderers have seen yet + lose pretty dramatically in the dot which is a crucial aspect to this specific part of the game and series.

Winning in the dot is incredibly crucial and the 2 C's (Mario and Jean) taking draws for the Wanderers are simply over matched considerably by Clarke and Kennedy. Is it a stretch to think 6 or 7 out of 10 draws in the Maroons zone are going back to Maroon defensemen after one of Clarke/Kennedy wins in the dot?

Winning on the PP is about possession and that starts in the circle. If you're chasing the puck more than you aren't you're losing valuable time and forced to gain entry which won't be easy against a top 4 of Clarke/Ramsay/Kennedy/Martinec putting pressure in the middle of the ice. Not only is that elite killing across the board for a 1st and 2nd duo's, you're looking at a pretty considerable amount of O ability going the other direction.

Ramsay and Clarke is about as good as you can get. Ramsay's usage AND kill rate (23% above the league average) are legendary. Clarke's usage is certainly very good especially for a #1 C and his kill rate (19% above league average) while not legendary, is certainly very, very good.

Penalty Kill - Forwards

PlayerGPSH%TmSH+$SHP/82
Charlie Burns67974%1.055
Don Luce89466%0.814
Ed Westfall122660%0.845
Craig Ramsay107059%0.773
Lorne Henning54357%0.755
John Madden89856%0.883
Donnie Marshall86256%1.003
Doug Jarvis96455%0.792
Boyd Gordon70655%1.072
Bill Collins76854%1.043
Lew Morrison58153%1.051
Guy Carbonneau131853%0.912
Dave Tippett72151%0.882
Gregg Sheppard65751%0.914
Dave Poulin72450%0.805
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Bobby Clarke114740%0.815
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


And furthermore, they were both quite adapt at scoring on the kill:

Top 5 PK scorers among forwards from 1972 through 1985 (Ramsay's career which overlaps Clarke's almost perfectly). Side note, Gretzky's totals are ridiculous and very indicative of the style of play during the 1980's haha.

upload_2020-12-1_21-6-3.png



And over the course of Ted Kennedy's career, only Floyd Curry had more SH points. Given how good we know Martinec was at killing penalties for the Czech's and his own offensive acumen, you have another duo that needs to be treated with a lot of respect. Not only because they can shut a PP down up top, but they can put the puck in the net if you make a big blunder.

upload_2020-12-1_21-17-9.png
 

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Special Teams Continued:

I wanted to touch on the Dmen for the Maroons kill:

Stewart-Chelios-Blake is a nice buffer against anyone who wants to attempt to set up shop near the net. Obviously Beliveau will be down there and you need what those 3 possess to make an impact. Stewart-Chelios is about as air tight in this setting considering their resume's defensively, usage, style, physicality, etc. Always like having a L-R set up on the kill as well.

Nobody is getting near Plante without enduring a lot of pain and when you couple those names with the F's listed in the last post you face a tough task at getting consistent looks as one might in previous series. There is no way to completely stop the Wanderers from scoring on the PP but I think the Maroons have a group that can at least limit the damage while certainly threatening to score a shorty or 2.

The Maroons will use a 2-1-2 on the PP for a couple of reasons:

Kurri-Crosby
Denneny
Leetch-Blake

First, we don't really have big net front types.

Secondly, the 2-1-2 forces the PK to inch towards the F3. You can't allow, in this case, Denneny, to sit in the slot and get multiple clean looks when you have facilitators like Crosby and Leetch on the same unit.

This gives the Dmen, in theory, more time and space to move the puck east-west/north/south while forcing the F's on the kill to skate/change directions more.

Leetch and Blake are very good at what they're on PP for.

Leetch was actually used on the PP more than Coffey. Only Bourque and Orr spent more time on their team's PP as a %. His vision and passing are first rate which meshes well with Blake, an elite trigger man with an absolute howitzer for a slap shot. I can see Crosby setting him up for numerous looks off that right wall back out to the point which then gets the F cheating and Crosby can slip the occasional dart inside to Denneny for a one timer.
 

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Goalies:

I could have used the Montreal pick to grab a Larry Robinson or someone that would have further enhanced the skating group, but as you all know, I believe goalies to be so critical in crunch time. They can, more than anyone else on the ice steal/give games away as they're the only players who play 60 minutes or more. I'll continue making sure my rosters have strong or at the very least average netminders.

If you evaluate the F/D/coaching as being a very close between the two teams as I do, I think the large gap in net tilts the series in the Maroons favor, likely in a game 7, on Maroons ice.

Benedict playing behind an offensive minded team:

Simply put I think Benedict is going to be in for a wild ride. First off, he played much of his career for Pete Green and his trap system featuring the great Frank Nighbor at C.

The Wanderers have a very different roster and play a very different style from the 1920's Ottawa Senators. Benedict was known for facing less shots than his counterparts at the time. He's not someone who is used to seeing a lot of rubber and given the scoring/offensive depth of the Maroons, don't see him being bored in this series.

Can Benedict handle having such a different system in front of him?

Plante's skating/puck handling:

Plante was noted as a strong skater. He played a more modern style of goaltending, coming out to challenge shooters and also went behind the net to retrieve pucks and facilitate the breakout. Having somebody who is strong in those areas is an added bonus to a blue line that shouldn't have many issues moving the puck (Leetch, Chelios, Blake, Carlson, Boyle). In certain instances it keeps the opposing forwards from getting to the puck first and also speeds up breakouts.

Pulled some info from the 2013 bio by @Hawkey Town 18

Joe Pelletier
A seven time All Star, Plante won the Hart Trophy in 1962 as the league's most valuable player. He'd win a record seven Vezina Trophies and also 6 Stanley Cups in his illustrious 18 year career. His lifetime GAA of 2.37 is almost as amazing as his 82 shutouts.

Plante played for six teams during his career, most notably the Montreal Canadiens as well as the New York Rangers, St. Louis Blues, Toronto Maple Leafs, Boston Bruins and finishing up his career with the Edmonton Oilers of the WHA at the age of 45.

Plante started many trends which we now simply take for granted. He was the first goalie to signal with one of his arms to his teammates when icing was going to be called. His strong skating ability - something goalies of older eras were not noted for like they are today - enabled him to come out of his net and challenge shooters, thus cutting down the angles. Yet another taken-for-granted play started by Plante was stopping the puck behind the net. Prior to Plante, no goalie would regularly roam around the ice and stop the puck and give it to his defenceman. That was unheard of!

Of course Plante's greatest contribution and most recognizable innovation was the goalie mask. He wasn't the first goalie ever to use one, but he was the first to permanently adopt a practical face mask.

"I rate him and Terry Sawchuk as the best goalies I've ever seen," wrote Jean Beliveau in his autobiography. "With Ken Dryden, Glenn Hall, Bernie Parent and Patrick Roy on the next rung down."

Plante, who only became the Canadiens regular goalie in 1954-55, won the Vezina Trophy each of the 5 years that the Habs had won the Cup. Despite all the great scorers on what many think is the greatest team of all time, you simply don't win a Stanley Cup - let alone 5 in a row - without great goaltending.

Plante, described by Boom Boom Geoffrion as "one of the cockiest, most confident goaltenders I've met," was the game's best during this time.

According to most statistical sources, Plante was inactive from competitive hockey in his three year retirement, but Jean Beliveau stated otherwise in his autobiography My Life In Hockey. He claims Plante played for the Quebec Aces during that time, which obviously would have kept his skills sharp.

When it comes to the eternal debate about the greatest goalie of all time, Plante's status remains near the top despite time's natural erosion. Perhaps Ken Dryden, a great goaltender in his own right, puts it best: "There are a lot of very good goalies, there are even a fair number of great goalies. But there aren't many important goalies. And Jacques Plante was an important goalie"


Toe Blake:
Know something? While Blake at times hated Plante, he always insisted he was the best goaltender he'd ever seen.

"Especially those five years we won the Cup, eh?" Blake said. "I played with (Bill) Durnan, and he was the best I'd ever seen up to that time. Plante was better during those five years."

Blake knew it and so did Plante. His teammates knew it, even though he stretched their patience from time to time. It's true he played behind many of hockey's best players, starting with Doug Harvey on defence, Jean Beliveau, Dickie Moore, Maurice and Henri Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion and others. The result was that on some nights, Plante's work was minimal because his colleagues controlled the puck most of the game, but he always made the big stops when the Canadiens needed them. No goaltender I have ever known was more confident in his ability to win.


Anatoli Tarasov:
"Jacques Plante is the best goaltender I've ever seen."


BM67 On How Plante Was Affected By Teammates:
Plante was short changed on all-star selections because he played on a stacked team. Plante led Montreal to 5 straight Vezinas and Stanley Cups but was only voted 1st all-star twice during that run. When he won the Vezina after Harvey was traded, he won the Hart. No one thought he'd win it without Harvey, but before that he was expected to win the Vezina because of Harvey.

Plante's top 5 Hart record has to be looked at in the same light as his all-star teams. Beliveau is the only Canadiens to win the Hart during their 5 straight Cup run. In fact Beliveau and Harvey are the only Canadiens to finish in the top 5.

He was a 7 time all-star, and won the Hart Trophy in 1962. His 6 Stanley Cup wins, 10 Finals appearances, and 7 Vezina Trophies are all records for goaltenders. A Retro Conn Smythe win in 1960 also makes him the one of only two goalies with both a Hart and a Conn Smythe. Chuck Rayner is the other.

According to the unofficial SV% numbers, Plante had a SV% over .900 every year, regular season and playoff, until the playoffs of 72. He led the NHL in SV% 5 times in the regular season, and 4 times in the playoffs, including a record .942 (possibly .944) in 70-71. He had a high peak, consistency, and longevity like no other. (Plante's quality of competition played a big part in his post expansion SV%, but he still put up very good playoff numbers, and his RS numbers truly are incredible.)

As good as Roy was in the playoffs, his W% dropped from .618 to .616 in the playoffs, while Plante's climbed from .614 (.628 in playoff seasons) to .664.

Awards
Hart: 1961-62
Retro Conn Smythe: 1960
Jennings/Old Vezina: 1955-56, 1956-57, 1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1961-62, 1968-69

Save % Ranks (From Reconstructed SV% Stats, 30GP to Qualify for Rankings)
1954-55: 3rd (.004 behind 1st)
1955-56: 1st (.008 ahead of 2nd)
1956-57: 3rd (.007 behind 1st)
1957-58: 2nd (.006 behind 1st)
1958-59: 1st (.112 ahead of 2nd)
1959-60: 3rd (.003 behind 1st)
1960-61: 5th (.018 behind 1st) - Injured
1961-62: 1st (.006 ahead of 2nd)
1962-63: 3rd (.004 behind 1st)
1963-64: 6th (.023 behind 1st)
1964-65: 7th (.023 behind 1st)
1968-69: 1st (.012 ahead of 2nd)
1969-70: 3rd (.011 behind 1st)
1970-71: 1st (.022 ahead of 2nd)
1971-72: 6th (.017 behind 1st)
1972-73: 5th (.015 behind 1st)

Save% Summary

Finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1*, 1*, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3*, 5, 5*, 6, 6*, 7
*Post Expansion Years


Post Season All Star Summary and Notes
- Finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3 *two 3rd place finishes from 6 team league
- Span of 14 years from earliest top 3 finish to latest, 13 years for top 2
- 3x Plante was within 5 points or less of the guy that finished ahead of him: 1957-58, 1959-60, and 1962-63
- Finishes with near ties changed to 1b, 2b: 1, 1, 1, 1b, 1b, 2, 2, 2b, 3, 3, 3


 

BenchBrawl

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A crucial weakness for the Maroons is just how weak defensively their 3rd pairing is, facing a team that can alternate a Mario Lemieux and Jean Béliveau combo. It will be very hard for Quenneville to shelter Carlson-Boyle against BOTH Lemieux and Béliveau, and he fails to do so, they will get burned. As strong as the Maroons are defensively up front, with Clarke and Kennedy and Ramsay and what not, and Plante in front of the net, defense ultimately boils down to the defensemen in priority.

A lot of noise was made about the Maroons 4th line, but it is kind of an ugly mix. Modano excelled when playing with a defensive superstar in Jere Lethinen, and here he's centering two offensive wingers (one of which wasn't even a winger as a natural position). Meanwhile Barber is way more similar to Goulet, and the role of the Wanderers 4th line is much clearer : bang up, score some goals here and there, play responsibly on the defense. Barber-Stastny-Bertuzzi will be competent at this.

As good a PK as the Maroons has, no PK on earth can stop what the Wanderers are icing. The Wanderers have the guns to impose their style and combine an unstoppable unit. It is definitely THE special unit confrontation in this series.

As good as Crosby is, when faced with an elite defensive center, he was largely kept at bay. I'm thinking of his series against Boston in 2013, where Bergeron bageled him (held him scoreless/pointless). He wasn't that strong against Detroit in the back-to-back Finals neither when Zetterberg was there waiting for him. Here he will be facing Keon, the Maroons' own decision, and Keon is certainly in that range of defensive superstardom. If he IS kept at bay by Keon, then the Maroons will have only Clarke and Kennedy left, who will be busy trying to contain Mario Lemieux and Jean Béliveau. A very bad scenario indeed.
 

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The funny thing is I don't think many people would actually say my 3rd pairing is worse than the Wanderers.

Let's recap:

John Carlson:

2 time postseason AS (1st and 2nd)
2, 4, 5, 10 Norris finishes (would have won this last year had he not missed 13 games)
12th in Hart last year

2018 SC winner as a #1D where he played VERY well.
20 points in 24 games
Just under 2 blocks per game (something he does extremely well btw)

757 games in the regular season
112 more in the postseason (24:21 per game)
66 points

He plays a lot on special teams. He's not a liability defensively. He's got more than enough resume to conclude he's the best of any of the 3rd pairing defenders.


Mark Giordano:

1 postseason AS (1st)
1, 6, 8, 10, 13, 16 Norris finishes
9th in Hart in 2019

His playoff resume consists of:

23 games played (been out of 1st round once)
7 points
-7
22:10 per game

He's got a marginally better Norris record based on an aberration win IMO. His next 3 finishes are worse than Carlson's. One less postseason AS nod. Does have a slightly better Hart finish.

Interesting that Carlson, overlapping careers with Giordano (2009-10 through 2020) averages a touch more time on the PK per game. Again, misconception he's some big swinging gate. He's great at blocking shots (Gio is tremendous at this as well). 5.10/60 vs 5.17/60.

Carlson is 6'3'' 217 lbs and in more recent years has started playing with more of an edge, engaing physically. He's not wrecking people but with his size and willingness to play that game, he's not going to just get tossed around.

Carlson's scouting report:

upload_2020-12-2_21-25-2.png



Giordano's:

upload_2020-12-2_21-23-13.png



Hatcher vs Boyle up next......
 

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Dan Boyle:

2 time postseason AS (2nd twice)
4, 5, 6, 12, 12, 17, 17 Norris finishes
Won SC in 2004-05 where he had 10 in 23 was a +7 and played over 21 minutes a night as a 2nd year player

1093 games played regular season
605 points
-5
130 games played in postseason
81 points
-10


Kevin Hatcher:

0 postseason AS (best finish was 5. had 7, 9, 10 otherwise of note)
4, 6, 7, 12, 16 Norris finishes

1157 games played
677 points
-26
118 games played in postseason
59 points
-8

Hatcher is simply outpointed no matter where you look. Behind in AS recognition. Behind slightly in Norris recognition. Wasn't superior to Boyle offensively. Certainly wasn't better defensively. Hatcher, as I remember quite vividly made more than his fair share of bonehead plays.

Yes, he played in a better era for Dmen but let's take a look at who Boyle finished behind in his top 3 Norris years:

2006-07
1. Lidstrom
2. Niedermayer
3. Pronger
4. Boyle

2008-09

1. Chara
2. Green
3. Lidstrom
4. Weber
5. Boyle

2009-10

1. Keith
2. Green
3. Doughty
4. Lidstrom
5. Pronger
6. Boyle


Boyle scouting report:

upload_2020-12-2_21-37-5.png



Conclusion:

AS nods favor the Maroons collectively.
Norris recognition is a wash.
Offensive ability favors the Maroons slightly
Defensive ability is a wash, though Hatcher is the weakest player overall IMO due to his terrible hockey IQ.
Postseason play heavily favors Maroons. This is a final. Experience matters.

The Maroons 3rd pair can skate, neither are defensive sieves and both possess strong hockey instincts.

Add it all up and I don't see any way you can say the Maroons have a weaker 3rd pairing as has been suggested. The resume's side by side simply favor my squad.
 

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Another thing I noticed regarding about D workload:

Chelios, Leetch, and Stewart are only playing on one special team unit each.

Chelios 1PK only
Leetch 1PP only
Stewart 1PK only

Cleghorn and Chara play on both special teams.

Cleghorn 1PP/2PK
Chara 1PK/2PP

Carlson/Boyle's ability to both soak up time on the 2PP keeps the top 3 defenders for the Maroons a bit fresher at ES. Blake was a strong player on special teams and he's aptly being used on the 1PP and 2PK.

There is no reason to think Chelios can't log 27 minutes a night and Leetch 24/25.

Stewart/Blake can go 21-22 which allows Q to shelter the 3rd pairing at ES (considerably) to more O and N ice draws. And given the superiority the Maroons possess in the dot, I think having the puck moving ability of Carlson/Boyle will come in handy.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Another thing I noticed regarding about D workload:
Chelios, Leetch, and Stewart are only playing on one special team unit each.
Chelios 1PK only
Leetch 1PP only
Stewart 1PK only
Cleghorn and Chara play on both special teams.
Cleghorn 1PP/2PK
Chara 1PK/2PP
Nice Point.
Carlson/Boyle's ability to both soak up time on the 2PP keeps the top 3 defenders for the Maroons a bit fresher at ES. Blake was a strong player on special teams and he's aptly being used on the 1PP and 2PK.
I'll buy what you're selling here, too.
There is no reason to think Chelios can't log 27 minutes a night
Yes. Absolutely.
and Leetch 24/25.

Gulp.

Yes, Leetch CAN play all those minutes- and more. Yes, he has had that sort of workload (and more) in real-life, but I still don't think that's the optimal way to use him.

I keep thinking to myself- I wish the Maroons out-of-position guy was on the right instead of the left. Then, the use of Chelios as a minutes-sponge would take an eraser to a lot of that.

Will Quenneville John FMuckler Leetch? No, Q- please no.
 

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Nice Point.
I'll buy what you're selling here, too.
Yes. Absolutely.


Gulp.

Yes, Leetch CAN play all those minutes- and more. Yes, he has had that sort of workload (and more) in real-life, but I still don't think that's the optimal way to use him.

I keep thinking to myself- I wish the Maroons out-of-position guy was on the right instead of the left. Then, the use of Chelios as a minutes-sponge would take an eraser to a lot of that.

Will Quenneville John FMuckler Leetch? No, Q- please no.

One has to remember a good chunk of Leetch's 24ish minutes are coming on the PP where he'll essentially be a 2 minute player as he was in real life. He almost never came off the ice when the Rangers had the man advantage as should be.

In reality he'll likely never see 20 minutes at ES which is a good cut off for a #2 IMO.

The reason I put Carlson on the left is traditionally you want the better defensive player on his off hand. You also need somebody who can move the puck which Carlson does well. Carlson is a more complete player AND the strength of the wings for the Wanderers are on the right wing (Bossy, Kane, Mikhailov).

I'm certainly not on Van's level in regards to chess, but I'm pretty good :naughty:
 

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Crosby vs Keon:

There is no doubt that Keon will give Crosby a big test. A couple of pretty detailed observations on that match up:

Players that have given Crosby trouble have generally came earlier in his career. Zetterberg/Datsuyk/Bergeron. There is no doubt Keon should be considered on their level defensively.

Keon isn't as much of a threat offensively as the Detroit guys and the line as whole doesn't really jive.

Who is going to carry the puck and engineer the line? Parise won't. Keon was a goal slanted C who never once finished top 10 in assists and Mikhailov was a goal dominant RW who scored a lot of his goals and was most dangerous from the slot and net front.

He had 224 assists in 572 domestic league games. That's 14 per season or 0.39 per game. Petrov over the same period had 343 in 595 or 0.58 per game. Kharlamov had 214 in 438 or 0.49 per game. There are a couple nice blurbs about Mikhailov's passing from his bios but he's not someone who can be counted on to engineer puck transition and set others up and given he's the best goal scorer on the line, doesn't have anyone else who can regularly get him the puck.

There simply is not a true engineer or someone who can consistently facilitate offense. That line should certainly get some chances on the cycle when they find a way into the offensive zone but again, the Chelios's, Stewart's, Blake's of the world will make them pay for trying to get near the goal mouth.

Mikhailov is going from real life partners Kharlamov/Petrov to Parise/Keon. I'd say that's a very large drop in offensive acumen running with a player who was usually the 3rd best offensive player on his own line in the 1970's.

Getting back to Sid:

87 is skating with a guy he's had great success with on the international stage (Marchand) and are great friends off the ice. Marchand has developed into the most complete LW in hockey. He does a lot of things well like fore check, agitate, defend, and over the last half of his career essentially dominate offensively from the left side.

Here is an incredible overview of the evolution of Marchand
:

https://thehockeywriters.com/brad-m...n undersized grinder with above-average skill.

Top scoring LW's of the last 5 years (very impressive for Marchand IMHO):


Marchand has the most points
the best point per game average
the most SHP
the most GWG
the most OTG
the best +/-
2nd most goals
2nd most PPP
2nd most ESP
2nd most ESG
3rd most assists


upload_2020-12-3_17-10-10.png



His AS finishes are 1, 2, 2, 4 (missed 14 games scoring 85 in 68 games which likely cost him a top 2 spot), 5
Hart finishes are 5, 7, 9, 11
Selke finishes are 9, 10, 12, 16

95 points in 121 playoff games
2011 Cup winner scoring 19 in 25 as a 22 year old 2nd year player.
Led the postseason in scoring in 2019 with 23 points in 24 games


Vladimir Martinec:

The more I read on Martinec the more I love him. He seems to have a lot of Marian Hossa qualities, and would certainly seem to be a tier above Hossa as far as offensive capabilities go. Ironically, Hossa and Crosby were dynamite together for a partial season in 2008 before Hossa left in FA to Detroit.

Incredible hockey IQ.
Worked all 3 zones
Oozed offensive creativity, especially goal scoring.
Was at least a solid defensive player, if not good outright, especially on the kill.
Handled being targeted by goons quite well.
Strong international resume
Most golden sticks in Czech history (4) other than Jagr and Hasek

Crosby does not like playing with players who don't play across all 3 zones and don't have quality hockey IQ. Marchand and Martinec have those attributes in spades. Marchand and Martinec represent a big, big upgrade over anything Sid has worked with during his career in Pittsburgh.

That is something I usually view as a bonus with Sid. He's made a career off producing with numerous players who weren't 1st line material so when you introduce very smart, 200 foot players who possess strong offensive credentials, it only enhances the hypothetical output IMO.

A nice overview from one of our resident Czech historians @DN28 in the recently created top 200 players project:

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread
upload_2020-12-3_17-57-0.png


Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

This is a FANTASTIC in depth look at Martinec but I'll only post the most pertinent, mostly highlighting his defensive chops as those were less known until recent findings by DN and @VMBM

a) Defense.
Not too long ago there wasn´t any knowledge about Martinec´ sound defensive play but some of us have been able to read the contemporary materials and find considerable evidence. Chronologically:
Gól magazine, post-WHC 1970, Martinec´s player description and evaluation:"As a rookie of the team, he signaled that it´s possible to count on him in the National team. He´s calm enough when finishing offensive actions, also owns good defensive skills. He was injured so his performance had considerable fluctuations."
Nomination for WHC 1971 presented at Gól magazine, Martinec´s player description:
"Technical, creative player with great improvisational abilities and good defensive propensities."

Slovakian Hockey Yearbook 1972:
Finally, the book is closed with short interesting descriptions of members of the winning Czechoslovakian team. Here they are.

Vladimír Martinec
. He is one of our most wittiest hockey players. By two assists on goals he contributed a great deal to the victory over USSR. He attacks and defends very well, has an intuition for the game, he is a constructive player. If he gains better conditioning and experience yet, he can become the backbone of CSSR team.

Early 1973, a prominent hockey columnist of the era and former National Team player, Miloslav Charouzd calls Martinec esentially one of the three best defensive forwards in the CSSR League. This is the biggest appreaciation of Martinec´s defensive efforts that can be possibly found. It´s also impressive because the article was written during the time when Martinec was on his way to win the League scoring and League title for this season. The key paragraph is bolded by me. I also decided to post or quote the entire article given its importance.

Defender‘ is usually a good skater, as he covers comparatively large space in offensive and defensive zones. The player is usually well-built physically, has an advantage in continuous control of the puck, at the same time he acts as an ‚forward-playing antenna‘ of active defense of the team. Outstanding representatives of this type of forward – Jiří Holík and Martinec – have almost even ratio of goals scored and assists and their collective and responsible style of play for the team needs to be highly appreaciated. Ševčík can calmly be measured with these players when it comes to work in defense. However today, we have started to require big effort, immediate counter-attacking skills even from a player securing defense in order for him to get into the scoring areas by himself or to selflessly create the shooting positions for his teammates.

WHC 1975 in West Germany:

'He was a bad shooter <at first>, but when he got stronger for some reason, he became a national team player. He has a good hockey sense, and he always plays for the benefit of the team. The most important thing is that Martinec's work capacity is unbelievable - even a simpleton can see that he is always able to carry the puck over the blue line, but his defensive contribution is never understood,' said a journalist from Pardubice in Düsseldorf**.

Martinec is all <of these things>: when they started to give the Golden Stick (for the player of the year) in Czechoslovakia, the rules were made to favour defencemen... for four years, goal-scoring defencemen were preeminent - then came Martinec. (...)
 

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