Ok Let's talk about Doug Gilmour

[Big Phil]

Robert Gordon Orr, .. his agent (who advised him to go home rather than take beezers insult) says Hi

Number 4 is more of a hall of famer to me for his attitude OFF the ice than on..

too bad its not infectious

I am aware who his agent was that advised him prior to you telling me that. It still should have been discussed within the team. You don't think if you put Orr, Daley and Beezer in a closed room together that they solve it a lot better than having the whole world know about it? Besides to Beezer's credit he did apologize and put the blame on his shoulders

 

[the_speedster]

I am aware who his agent was that advised him prior to you telling me that. It still should have been discussed within the team. You don't think if you put Orr, Daley and Beezer in a closed room together that they solve it a lot better than having the whole world know about it? Besides to Beezer's credit he did apologize and put the blame on his shoulders

Trevor SPOKE to the team and its leaders. Bobby spoke to management. I'm not sure who told you this fantasy about daley running off AWOL but its far from the truth. What ORR refused to let happen was for a young man to stay in a situation were a person of authority was abusing his power.

Orr, apparently, was more disgusted than daley...

what a sensitive ****er huh?

Your morals are interesting. Child molesters and racists are A-okay and should have their offenses hidden.

Hurt black teenagers? return to the scene of the crime for the good of phil and others (and take your medicine)


got it! thanks!

 

[Big Phil]

Trevor SPOKE to the team and its leaders. Bobby spoke to management. I'm not sure who told you this fantasy about daley running off AWOL but its far from the truth. What ORR refused to let happen was for a young man to stay in a situation were a person of authority was abusing his power.

Orr, apparently, was more disgusted than daley...

what a sensitive ****er huh?

Your morals are interesting. Child molesters and racists are A-okay and should have their offenses hidden.

Hurt black teenagers? return to the scene of the crime for the good of phil and others (and take your medicine)


got it! thanks!

Your weird speedster. I mean your posts are usually comical to a lot of us but you ever think you go off on the deep end?

Where in the world do you get off that I promote child molesters and racists? You need to get it through your thick skull that Gilmour had an allegation against him. Nothing more. Nothing came of it. Was it wrong if it is true? Of course, but for all we know it doesnt have a shred of truth to it. But don't let that get in the way of your rants

Secondly, Beezer was out of line. Why you think I don't think he was is something only you can answer. But based on the word that was said and the ramifications it had on the team was way overblown. SS Marie got swept in the playoffs, they had a new coach which threw off the chemistry and looked terrible, I know, they lost to my Rangers that year. The situation could have been dealt with much more privately. Beezer did not deserve the fate that was handed to him since he was basically forced to sell his share of the team and step down as coach. All for a derogatory word. It was extreme, plain and simple. Beezer was wrong, but he didnt inflict an Eagleson/Ballard-like wrongdoing.

 

[canucks4ever]

Gilmour should have retired after the 1999-00 season, his playoff legacy can't be ignored. The man is a hall of famer.

 

[overg]

Excellent arguments from seventieslord and Hockey Outsider.

Before reading those posts, my opinion on Gilmour was that he would end up in the HOF in large part because he played for Toronto, but that I wouldn't be all that upset about that since I remember just how good he was while playing with the Leafs.

But your two posts make me think I was underestimating him. Sure, the Toronto media is going to help him a lot, but you both make great arguments that he shouldn't really need it.

BTW, the one vivid memory I have of Gilmour is when he closed out a playoff series by doubling back and forth behind the net what seemed like a dozen times before popping out front and clinching the series. Presuming that my memory is actually correct that this was a series clinching goal, was that against Chicago, St. Louis, or other? It stands in my mind as one of the most "deserved" wins by a single player I've seen in my 17 years of watching hockey.

 

[JaymzB]

Excellent arguments from seventieslord and Hockey Outsider.

Before reading those posts, my opinion on Gilmore was that he would end up in the HOF in large part because he played for Toronto, but that I wouldn't be all that upset about that since I remember just how good he was while playing with the Leafs.

But your two posts make me think I was underestimating him. Sure, the Toronto media is going to help him a lot, but you both make great arguments that he shouldn't really need it.

BTW, the one vivid memory I have of Gilmore is when he closed out a playoff series by doubling back and forth behind the net what seemed like a dozen times before popping out front and clinching the series. Presuming that my memory is actually correct that this was a series clinching goal, was that against Chicago, St. Louis, or other? It stands in my mind as one of the most "deserved" wins by a single player I've seen in my 17 years of watching hockey.

It wasn't a series clinching goal, but it was deep in overtime. And yeah, that was an awesome performance by Gilmour that game, and that playoff year.

 

[seventieslord]

The game you're thinking of is 1993, Round 2, Game 1, Double OT against St. Louis.

I remember it like it was yesterday and I still get all tingly thinking about it. It really was the best goal ever, all things considered.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Hate to rain on this Gilmour love-in but Adam Oates deserves to get into the Hall before he does.

Gilmour had just 3 100 point seasons...Oates had 4

Oates was a 2nd team NHL all-star at least once...can't say the same for Dougie

Oates led the NHL in assists 3 times...Gilmour never led the league in any stat

Oates career ppg is over 1 per game...Gilmour is under

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Gilmour and do think he will get in eventually but the Leaf fans who think he should be in immediately need to cool their jets because there are others more deserving (from the same era) to get in before him.

Stop looking at stats. Adam Oates is not a HOF'er and if he is they have lowered the bar yet again

 

[Dark Shadows]

Stop looking at stats. Adam Oates is not a HOF'er and if he is they have lowered the bar yet again

Being a top 5 all time playmaker in the History of the NHL virtually locks Oates for the hall.

 

[Big Phil]

Stop looking at stats. Adam Oates is not a HOF'er and if he is they have lowered the bar yet again

Can you name the guy who led the NHL in points from '90-95? Adam Oates. He was a supreme example of a guy who made everyone around him better. You complain that we look at stats, well if that were the only case Turgeon, Housley and Nicholls would be in the HHOF. But Oates is more than just stats. He was a great faceoff man, was pretty good defensively (at least not a floater) and despite not winning a Cup was still a pretty good playoff performer. But how is it that you don't even regard his stats. He had 115 points in 61 games back in '90-91. He was a 2nd team all-star that year at center. And most centers that garnered a 2nd team all-star at center in the Gretzky and Lemieux era are in the Hall (Lafontaine, Hawerchuk, Messier). It'll be a travesty if Oates is not in there.

 

[excanuck]

all that said, gilmour will eventually be in the hall of fame. it'll take some time, like anderson, but his playoff numbers, his spot on the all-time scoring list, plus the boost that his cult status in toronto gives him should make him undeniable... eventually. by the HHOF's criteria, he's no hull, robitaille, yzerman, or leetch, or even adam oates. in a way, as much as gilmour gets overrated for his amazing seasons in toronto, his time in st. louis gets seriously underrated and it balances out. but i really doubt that this incident that happened more than twenty years ago that no one really wants to talk about is going to impede his chances.

He's in NOW! Wooohoooo Way to go Killer (and GM of the Kingston Frontenacs)!

Wish I was back in K-town for the announcement.

 

[cyris]

He's in NOW! Wooohoooo Way to go Killer (and GM of the Kingston Frontenacs)!

Wish I was back in K-town for the announcement.

Aren't you a little late getting this info?

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Its funny that the HHOF has been accused as an NHL HOF yet some of their best players have yet to be inducted. And then Kami Granato gets in. Gilmour is a hall of famer. Allegations should keep adults out of school grounds and day cares, not adult institutions.

 

[Hardyvan123]

And in my honest opinion that has got to be a reason as to why he isnt in there. I thought he would get in as soon as possible in 2006. Then 2007 came along and it's hard to unseat Mess, Mac, Stevens and Francis. But then I thought 2008 was a lock. Something is fishy, that is all I can say, the majority of us would consider Gilmour well above a marginal borderline Hall of Famer and there is no reason why the HHOF committee wouldnt agree.

Look this alleged sex with a teenage babysitter. I don't know every intimate detail about it other than the fact it happened in St. Louis sometime in 1987-'88. Gilmour was 24-25 then. This babysitter would have been 16. A little young? Perhaps, and if I'm the girl's father I'd wouldnt be amused but IIRC there were no charges that stuck and he got traded to Calgary after '88 and the whole St. Louis incident was forgotten. Sometimes people think that Gilmour was 40 years old when this happened but just to clear it up, he wasn't he was a fairly young man at the time not too far removed from a teen himself.

I agree here because on his play he should be in already and I'm sorry but Gilmour brought a lot more grit and 2 way play to the game than Oates did who is seen as an assists compiler, rightly or wrongly.

Gilmour is going to rank higher than Oates on most of the top 50 center lists is my guess.

I think the allegation is what is keeping him out, remember it happened in the states where the laws and views on younger and older is quite different than in Canada.

For instance in some states a 20 year having sex with a 17 year is statutory **** consent cannot be given.

The makeup of the HHOF committee is older and probably slightly more conservative on these matters as well but at the end of the day it would be a travesty if Gilmour didn't get in as he was truly one of the all-time greats at center.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Ushvinder likes to claim Hull was nothing without Oates, and that all of Hull's points were a product of Oates.

While I don't totally agree with Ushvinder he does have a point perhaps he takes it too far.

Both Brett Hull and Cam Neely enjoyed their best goal scoring exploits, and the difference is quite large, while playing with Oates.

 

[Big Phil]

I agree here because on his play he should be in already and I'm sorry but Gilmour brought a lot more grit and 2 way play to the game than Oates did who is seen as an assists compiler, rightly or wrongly.

And that's the thing I am afraid is going to haunt Oates for a long time. I do not believe time will be his friend on this one and its too bad. When he was playing he was known as a supreme playmaker. As time goes on we forget about him because of how quiet he was and how little attention he drew to himself off the ice. Maybe he was a little surly, or maybe he hated being in the public eye. I don't know. But either way, the time to enshrine Oates is now, the longer this goes the less chance we remember him for what he actually was............a player that made even legit snipers around him more prolific

 

[Hoser]

Great post and great Sumup.

As for the end part regarding his offense, it should be noted that his first 9 years in the league often had him relegated to 2nd line center duties. In StLouis, he was playing as second line or Checking center behind Fedorko, who was given the best wingers, yet Gilmour was still popping out 90-100 point seasons. In Calgary the situation was much the same. The team stacked Nieuwendyk's line with the top scorers(Fleury, Makarov, Roberts) while Gilmour got the defensive duties and lesser linemates.

It was not until Toronto that he was given full firstline duties full time, and then he just used that icetime to put on a grand display of scoring and defensive prowess in Pat Burns stifling defense first system.

In '88-'89 Gilmour mostly played with Mullen and Loob, the Flames' top wingers. He was definitely the #1 centre. The next season Nieuwendyk played on the first line with Makarov/Fleury and Roberts but it's not as though the second line was a huge step down, with Gilmour still playing with a combination of Mullen, Fleury, Makarov and Brian MacLellan. In '90-'91 he'd usually play with some combination of Makarov, Fleury, MacLellan and Robert Reichel.

The Flames were a deep team. The first two lines were often interchangeable.

Yes Gilmour saw PK duty, but so too did Carey Wilson. If there was one centreman on the Flames who got the bulk of the defensive duties it was Joel Otto.

 

[tjcurrie]

What makes Brett Hull so solidly in the top 100 and Gilmour left out. Both cracked the top 10 in points 3 times, both have the same amount of playoff and regular season points. However, Gilmour was the vastly superior defensive player, yet hull is better because he was great at one dimension of hockey.

Just for starters; A Hart Trophy, a Pearson, and three straight years of being the most dangerous offensive force in the league.

Plus Hull being 3rd all time in goals behind only Gretzky and Howe obviously counts for something. Not to mention Gilmour played 200 more games than Hull did. Give Hull a couple hundred more games in his early 20s and he's a couple hundred points ahead of Gilmour on the all time list, at least. Hull also has a better ppg average than Oates before their St.Louis days, during their St.Louis days, and over their careers. There was a thread on here not too long ago showing % of assists on players goals and the % of Hull's goals that were assisted by Oates was far lower than what people think.

I'm not saying Gilmour or Oates dont belong, I'm just replying to the comment.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Plus Hull being 3rd all time in goals behind only Gretzky and Howe obviously counts for something. Not to mention Gilmour played 200 more games than Hull did. Give Hull a couple hundred more games in his early 20s and he's a couple hundred points ahead of Gilmour on the all time list, at least. Hull also has a better ppg average than Oates before their St.Louis days, during their St.Louis days, and over their careers. There was a thread on here not too long ago showing % of assists on players goals and the % of Hull's goals that were assisted by Oates was far lower than what people think.

I'm not saying Gilmour or Oates dont belong, I'm just replying to the comment.

How does one give Hull those extra 200 games, he played in the NHL in his 1st pro season in 87, 5 games with the Falmes, and 67 with Moncton in the AHL.

The previous 2 seasons he played US college hockey and it's debatable on how much he would have scored had he played in the NHL before 87.

Who knows maybe he could have scored 50 more goals if he turned pro after the BCJHL or his 1st season in college or maybe he could have lost his way as well.

We have to remember he was a bit of a late bloomer and not considered a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Gilmour on the other hand had a wide skill set and was ready for the NHL the following year after he was drafted after enjoying an excellent last Jr season.

 

[tjcurrie]

How does one give Hull those extra 200 games, he played in the NHL in his 1st pro season in 87, 5 games with the Falmes, and 67 with Moncton in the AHL.

The previous 2 seasons he played US college hockey and it's debatable on how much he would have scored had he played in the NHL before 87.

Who knows maybe he could have scored 50 more goals if he turned pro after the BCJHL or his 1st season in college or maybe he could have lost his way as well.

We have to remember he was a bit of a late bloomer and not considered a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Gilmour on the other hand had a wide skill set and was ready for the NHL the following year after he was drafted after enjoying an excellent last Jr season.

Because of the fact that he didnt get going with Calgary until he was 23. I'm comparing his numbers to Gilmour's since the other boardie stated that they have the same amount of career points. Of course it's impossible to KNOW what he would have done had he started at 19 or 20, but given his track record I think it's safe to avg him a ppg or so. You would also have to factor in that had he started earlier, his 87-89 numbers would likely even be higher than what they are. All I'm saying is that saying they have the same amount of points is a bit skewed since Hull played 200 less games due to his late start.

He wasnt a sure thing but it was more due to his "attitude" but mostly because his skating was seen as a liability. Obviously it's one of those situations where he didn't need to be the fastest skater to succeed.

 

[jkrx]

Its funny that the HHOF has been accused as an NHL HOF yet some of their best players have yet to be inducted. And then Kami Granato gets in. Gilmour is a hall of famer. Allegations should keep adults out of school grounds and day cares, not adult institutions.

Gilmour is a great player but not one of NHLs best players (in context of Orr, Sawchuk, Gretzky etc.). He might be a HoFer and I think he should get in.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Because of the fact that he didnt get going with Calgary until he was 23. I'm comparing his numbers to Gilmour's since the other boardie stated that they have the same amount of career points. Of course it's impossible to KNOW what he would have done had he started at 19 or 20, but given his track record I think it's safe to avg him a ppg or so. You would also have to factor in that had he started earlier, his 87-89 numbers would likely even be higher than what they are. All I'm saying is that saying they have the same amount of points is a bit skewed since Hull played 200 less games due to his late start.

He wasnt a sure thing but it was more due to his "attitude" but mostly because his skating was seen as a liability. Obviously it's one of those situations where he didn't need to be the fastest skater to succeed.

what you say is illogical. how could hull possibly have played, let alone scored at a PPG pace, in the NHL as a teenager when he wasn't even good enough to make canada's WJC team?

brett hull's track record from 18-23 is a guy who had to play his way into the NCAA from tier II and didn't get there until he was 20. also, he was an overaged 6th round draft pick.

the only hypothetical that could justify what you suggest is if the ghost of christmas future visited brett hull circa 1982 and told him to work on his skating, stop eating so many doughnuts, start jogging, working out, etc.

he had every advantage. his dad was one of the best conditioned NHLers of all time, accounting for era. his uncle was in the league. his brothers all played competitive hockey and were all in much better shape than him. his mother was a professional figure skater. his sister was a competitive track athlete. his younger brother would go on to play professional football. brett should have, and did, know what it takes to maximize his god-given talents. as a teenager, he wasn't ready to do any of that yet, and while he did improve every step of the way, from penticton to UMD to moncton to calgary to st. louis, it took him time to figure out what level he had to reach and stay at. this was a guy who got by on god-given hall of fame talent his entire life. i remember seeing the pictures of hull in penticton from his autobiography: nobody with a beer gut like that could play in the NHL, no matter how great his wrist shot is. all of those people around brett who set an excellent example, none of that hit home enough to get him into and keep him in the league until he was in his early 20s.

there is no "what if" for young hull. maybe he could have gotten into the lineup more if he hadn't been drafted by calgary or had to play for terry crisp, who hated him. but either way, he would have had to play those two years at duluth, and he would have had to start in the AHL. he had to at least get his skating up to a bare minimum NHL standard. so at most, he gets an extra half season in '88 if we put him on a team that doesn't already have mullen, loob, and mcdonald ahead of him, with timmy hunter at fourth line RW.

 

[Hardyvan123]

what you say is illogical. how could hull possibly have played, let alone scored at a PPG pace, in the NHL as a teenager when he wasn't even good enough to make canada's WJC team?

brett hull's track record from 18-23 is a guy who had to play his way into the NCAA from tier II and didn't get there until he was 20. also, he was an overaged 6th round draft pick.

the only hypothetical that could justify what you suggest is if the ghost of christmas future visited brett hull circa 1982 and told him to work on his skating, stop eating so many doughnuts, start jogging, working out, etc.

he had every advantage. his dad was one of the best conditioned NHLers of all time, accounting for era. his uncle was in the league. his brothers all played competitive hockey and were all in much better shape than him. his mother was a professional figure skater. his sister was a competitive track athlete. his younger brother would go on to play professional football. brett should have, and did, know what it takes to maximize his god-given talents. as a teenager, he wasn't ready to do any of that yet, and while he did improve every step of the way, from penticton to UMD to moncton to calgary to st. louis, it took him time to figure out what level he had to reach and stay at. this was a guy who got by on god-given hall of fame talent his entire life. i remember seeing the pictures of hull in penticton from his autobiography: nobody with a beer gut like that could play in the NHL, no matter how great his wrist shot is. all of those people around brett who set an excellent example, none of that hit home enough to get him into and keep him in the league until he was in his early 20s.

there is no "what if" for young hull. maybe he could have gotten into the lineup more if he hadn't been drafted by calgary or had to play for terry crisp, who hated him. but either way, he would have had to play those two years at duluth, and he would have had to start in the AHL. he had to at least get his skating up to a bare minimum NHL standard. so at most, he gets an extra half season in '88 if we put him on a team that doesn't already have mullen, loob, and mcdonald ahead of him, with timmy hunter at fourth line RW.

This is a very good sumup of his early years.

Also if he doesn't play with Oates he is very likely a better version of Dino with more personalty to be sure.

At the end of the day those 3 seasons with Oates made hull's legacy and i sure hope he appreciates all that Oates did to get him into the HHOF.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes Gilmour saw PK duty, but so too did Carey Wilson.

I don't have the numbers right in fr
ont of me at the moment, but I call BS on this one.

 

[tjcurrie]

Come on now. So because people thought he was a poor skater in his teens and early 20s he wasn't able to play in the NHL ? I have news for you, that was still the knock on him when he actually did make it and beyond, though obviously his numbers helped silence a lot of the critics. You guys are simply going by one aspect of his game that people figured to be a weak point back then. You don't think they were wrong at all ? What I'm saying is he proved everyone he did not need to be Mr.Fitness or Pavel Bure all along. So if someone had taken a chance on him earlier it's very possible he begins his NHL career earlier and a ppg is nothing to scoff at for him.

Martin St.Louis is another example of someone who just wasn't really given a fair shake ( for a different reason ) until later on. Does that mean he couldn't have played in this league earlier ? No. It just means all it took was for someone to say " Okay kid, here's your shot."

Players get overlooked ya know. It happens.

And as I said, Hull had a better ppg average than Oates before their St.Louis days, during their St.Louis days, and over their careers.

Regardless of what you guys think, how you want to twist things, dissect them, etc etc it doesnt matter, my original point still remains. The boardie posted that Gilmour and Hull had the same amount of career points. Hull played 200 less games. Twist that how you want.

I find it ironic that we're talking about a guy who scored 741 goals all while being "too slow" and "out of shape", yet you guys are believing the hype that when he was in his late teens/early 20s he was "too slow" and "out of shape" to play, disregarding the possibility that he could have anyways. Now THAT'S illogical.