Ansar Khan: Offseason over

kook10

Registered User
Jun 27, 2011
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Yeah, this is a lame excuse.

These are things we knew about. Wasn't a surprise.

Rafalski was playing on one knee for awhile. We were aware of Stuarts family situation too.

Nice cherry pick. Raffy could still get the puck up ice better than most of the squad now. He had 48 points in his final 63 game season - ON ONE KNEE! He was also a marketable asset. He had a year left on his deal and it was indeed a surprise.

Lilja's concussion didn't help the D situation either. That was essentially just another asset down the drain.

Sure Stuart may have been foreseen, but I think you are naive to think that just because you know someone may leave that they are readily replaceable. Solid, top 4, stay at home D really don't grow on trees and don't hit the market at a reasonable price very often.
 
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lilja4mvp*

Guest
wisniewski said what i'm sure a lot of FAs were thinking: "detroit expects you to take less to play there".

then they low-balled suter on the initial offer and more FAs probably took notice.
 

probertrules24

Registered User
Jul 10, 2007
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1
Canada
wisniewski said what i'm sure a lot of FAs were thinking: "detroit expects you to take less to play there".

then they low-balled suter on the initial offer and more FAs probably took notice.

I wouldn't say they offered him a low ball deal. They did offered 90 mil over 13 years I believe and Minny came in at the last minute and offered the same dollar only for 12 years. Even Suter didn't look at this as a low ball offer as he was reportedly going to sign the deal until Parise and Minny stepped in.

Wisniewsky has had issues with Detroit and made the comment. Which means nothing as he was never going to play for us anyways because he never wanted too.
 

JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
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wisniewski said what i'm sure a lot of FAs were thinking: "detroit expects you to take less to play there".

then they low-balled suter on the initial offer and more FAs probably took notice.

Except this point is incredibly moot because the Wings were ready to beat every offer that other teams were offering to their FA targets.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,253
14,757
Nice cherry pick. Raffy could still get the puck up ice better than most of the squad now. He had 48 points in his final 63 game season - ON ONE KNEE! He was also a marketable asset. He had a year left on his deal and it was indeed a surprise.

Lilja's concussion didn't help the D situation either. That was essentially just another asset down the drain.

Sure Stuart may have been foreseen, but I think you are naive to think that just because you know someone may leave that they are readily replaceable. Solid, top 4, stay at home D really don't grow on trees and don't hit the market at a reasonable price very often.

You made it sound like they were unaware of these things, and it prevented them from planning for it.

That's not the truth. Whether they are easy to replace or not is irrelevant. They didn't even try.

They watched Ehrhoff and Wisniewski get signed in 2011 and sat on their hands.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
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Wisniewski sucks, anyways. ;)

Honestly, though, despite him doing well in Columbus I was never a fan.
 

JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
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You made it sound like they were unaware of these things, and it prevented them from planning for it.

That's not the truth. Whether they are easy to replace or not is irrelevant. They didn't even try.

They watched Ehrhoff and Wisniewski get signed in 2011 and sat on their hands.

That's not even true. That's totally relevant. You can't just replace someone of the scale of a Nick Lidstrom or Brian Rafalski. They were two of the premiere puck moving defensemen in the whole league. No amount of future planning could ever replace those two.

Ehrhoff got signed to that stupid deal in 2011, the one that he was just bought out from because nobody would trade for him. Wisniewski didn't even want to go to Detroit (There's that whole 2nd party element again).
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,253
14,757
That's not even true. That's totally relevant. You can't just replace someone of the scale of a Nick Lidstrom or Brian Rafalski. They were two of the premiere puck moving defensemen in the whole league. No amount of future planning could ever replace those two.

Ehrhoff got signed to that stupid deal in 2011, the one that he was just bought out from because nobody would trade for him. Wisniewski didn't even want to go to Detroit (There's that whole 2nd party element again).

Totally disagree.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,042
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That's not even true. That's totally relevant. You can't just replace someone of the scale of a Nick Lidstrom or Brian Rafalski. They were two of the premiere puck moving defensemen in the whole league. No amount of future planning could ever replace those two.

Ehrhoff got signed to that stupid deal in 2011, the one that he was just bought out from because nobody would trade for him. Wisniewski didn't even want to go to Detroit (There's that whole 2nd party element again).

You can't replace them, no, but that doesn't mean you should give up and hope another high-quality defenseman lands in your lap.

That's horrible reasoning.
 

icKx

Vanek 4 Prez
May 7, 2010
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Two weeks later and some people are still too dense to understand the reason for Ehrhoff's buyout.

Wiz we never even got a shot at. Montreal traded his rights and Columbus had him signed to a deal 48hrs later.
 

lilja4mvp*

Guest
I wouldn't say they offered him a low ball deal. They did offered 90 mil over 13 years I believe and Minny came in at the last minute and offered the same dollar only for 12 years. Even Suter didn't look at this as a low ball offer as he was reportedly going to sign the deal until Parise and Minny stepped in.

everyone keeps posting the $90mil offer and forgetting that they originally offered $80mil for the same term. it was not going to get it done, period. they upped it to 90 when they realized suter wasn't dying to play here for less cash. hence the term "low-ball".

i mean, in the span of two seasons, you lose one of the top 5 defensemen to ever play the game, and his partner who was also one of the best offensive defenseman in the league. just your luck that one of the best all-round defenseman in the in league is 27 and UFA for the first time. time to blow him away with an offer, since you've got tons of cap space, right?

your solution is to offer him...6.15mill a year?

really?

really?
 

kook10

Registered User
Jun 27, 2011
4,724
2,829
You made it sound like they were unaware of these things, and it prevented them from planning for it.

No I didn't - I said it worked against them. It did.

Coming off 10 year deals for Z and Franzine, they just were never going to match the term for Ehrhoff. A similar contract would end up in the same situation as Buffalo or a properly structured one would have a significantly higher cap hit. Wiz was never coming anyway and is lazy and sucks. Obviously Ian White didn't pan out as well as hoped, and Commie was nothing more than a hairdo but complaining about 2011 doesn't make any sense to me. Who else was there?

Sure, this year Kenny should have thrown everything at Ehrhoff, but we just don't have the steak or the sizzle in Motown any more. It is a tough sell for any free agent because we aren't contenders and one guy won't make us one either. Kenny is just going to have to resign to the fact that we will have to pay stupid money for FAs just like any other non-contender.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
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everyone keeps posting the $90mil offer and forgetting that they originally offered $80mil for the same term. it was not going to get it done, period. they upped it to 90 when they realized suter wasn't dying to play here for less cash. hence the term "low-ball".

i mean, in the span of two seasons, you lose one of the top 5 defensemen to ever play the game, and his partner who was also one of the best offensive defenseman in the league. just your luck that one of the best all-round defenseman in the in league is 27 and UFA for the first time. time to blow him away with an offer, since you've got tons of cap space, right?

your solution is to offer him...6.15mill a year?

really?

really?

You are acting like that was the catalyst for something.

Essentially a lot of speculation on your part.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,253
14,757
he wasn't bought out because nobody would trade for him.

he was bought out because sabres were afraid of the recapture risk.

and he didn't want to be there, going through rebuild.

It was mostly the last part.
 

lilja4mvp*

Guest
You are acting like that was the catalyst for something.

Essentially a lot of speculation on your part.
yes, we'll never know what would have happened if they offered suter what he was worth to this team.

thanks to kenny.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,042
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yes, we'll never know what would have happened if they offered suter what he was worth to this team.

thanks to kenny.

If you admit that you are speculating, you can't rightly blame him for a "what-if" scenario which isn't really considered to be the reason behind losing out in the first place.
 

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,446
14,683
yes, we'll never know what would have happened if they offered suter what he was worth to this team.

thanks to kenny.

As long as we're just blindly speculating I'll say he'd have taken his time and signed in Minnesota to be with his bff Zach anyway.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,840
4,731
Cleveland
I remember. Recall it was 50/50 among the HF'ers whether or not to sign him. And when he got signed the majority was like over payment! In hindsight, not an over payment.

Around here we end up around 50/50 on signing nearly anyone. :) I mean in the media, I don't remember a lot of talk. Not like with Suter, anyway.

Signing Ehrhoff for five years wasn't going to prevent the prospects from playing.

That is Kindl's job. His contract is untradeable. Who wants a #6-7 defenseman for three more years, at 2.5 million a year? You can find 50 Kindl's through FA or within a teams own prospect pool.


Giving Ehrhoff a five year deal was a win/win scenario. Proven offensive defenseman who would turn 37 when his contract expired. It would also give you a security net in case the kids didn't live up to the hype.

Now the kids either deliver or the defense ends up completely imploding.

You are better off waiving Kindl and signing Ehrhoff for five years.

A three year offer was awful. What kind of value is Ehrhoff going to have when he is 35 on a Wings team that could end up being very bad? Wings were forcing Ehrhoff to take all the risk. At that point, a one year deal with Pitt was a no brainer.

Five years wouldn't have hurt us at all, and we shouldn't have held back from offering that. At the same time, we don't know if Ehrhoff was looking for a five year deal, after his stint in Buffalo bombed and he found himself in the cellar. I think Ehrhoff's one year deal caught a number of people a bit off-guard.

I don't remember personal issues per se, but then against was a few years ago.

Thought it was that he said the Wings and Holland were cheap and low balled FA's.

And he would have had a point back then.

Same. I remember him barking about us being cheap.

eklund says that chances for myers being trade earlier were around 20% but now they are up to 50%. red wings pushing the hardest.

I have to echo Fugu's question from another thread: why? The guy is young, still a top pairing quality guy, and there isn't much there if he's moved. their blueline will be anchored by Gorges and a bunch of kids?

Two weeks later and some people are still too dense to understand the reason for Ehrhoff's buyout.

Wiz we never even got a shot at. Montreal traded his rights and Columbus had him signed to a deal 48hrs later.

though that could be seen as another Holland short-coming. He has been wholly reluctant to move an asset for a player's rights before free agency. It matters a bit less now, since it seems players are willing to wait and take advantage of that time before free agency where they can test the waters with other teams, but if Holland had been a bit more pro-active, maybe he could have grabbed Ehrhoff's rights before Buffalo got a hold of them. A lot of what ifs in that, though.

As long as we're just blindly speculating I'll say he'd have taken his time and signed in Minnesota to be with his bff Zach anyway.

My impression has always been that Suter was playing us off Minny, just trying to goad them into a bigger deal. I thought it was reported we were the high bidder twice before Suter got someone else to up their bids, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he always allowed someone to respond to our bid, but shut off his phone the moment he got what he thought was the most he could get from Minny.
 

lilja4mvp*

Guest
If you admit that you are speculating, you can't rightly blame him for a "what-if" scenario which isn't really considered to be the reason behind losing out in the first place.
i can (and do) blame him for low-balling suter on the initial offer.

As long as we're just blindly speculating I'll say he'd have taken his time and signed in Minnesota to be with his bff Zach anyway.
maybe. but at least holland would have done everything he could.

you can't say that now.
 

InjuredChoker

Registered User
Dec 25, 2011
31,402
345
LTIR or golf course
I have to echo Fugu's question from another thread: why? The guy is young, still a top pairing quality guy, and there isn't much there if he's moved. their blueline will be anchored by Gorges and a bunch of kids?

murray said this:

"That's the nature of the game with good, young players. Other teams want them," Murray said. "So they call and ask and you listen. You listen only because they may do something crazy... I don't call anybody on those young guys... (The trade speculation is) certainly not from our end, in shopping him."
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
Yeah that is going to be the case from now on. Every team that isn't completely stupid is going to lock up their best young players. You'll need an excess of good trade pieces from excellent drafting to do anything at the trade deadline with a seller team. Except fewer and fewer teams become sellers because of the illusory "parity" of everyone being so close to the playoffs.

And then every free agent season it's usually going to be the best teams that have the best chance of landing who they need. There's just not going to be many. It's gonna be older guys looking to win or some players that just *really* do not get along with their previous team's management.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,185
54,415
that is pretty much how most people here feel and complain about.



re-tool on the fly.

now how they will get the elite center to replace those or even good #1 or #1 defenseman is another thing..

most people here are more optimistic about future than i am. #1Cs and #1Ds rarely become available. you have to draft them. they might get #1D in positions they draft but that center? unlikely.

currently, they project to be something like the blues without pietrangelo. or maybe anaheim without weber. good depth all around, good goalie, maybe elite winger or even two but no high end D's or C's.

a team that won't contend for the cup but is good enough to not draft high. so a team that goes nowhere.

i personally question the direction of this team very much.
they are idiots. that's why. they also were willing to offer 3 years for a guy who is 38 and broke his leg twice last year.

Yeah, it's pretty dangerous what the Wings are doing these days. The new generation might just jump in and assume the mantle 2-3 years down the line the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg did in the mid 2000s, but there's so little continuity in terms of having a Red Wing in his prime as a bridge to the future.
 

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