Speculation: Offseason coaching thread: Should they stay or should they go?

[SomeDude]

How long before we’re calling for Dubas to be fired?

Does it count if you were calling for him never to be hired in the first place?

 

[molon labe]

From DK's Friday post:

Mike Sullivan's genuine ambition is to guide the Penguins through their next great wave.

Kyle Dubas' genuine ambition is precisely the same, including the part where Sullivan's behind the bench.

A series of conversations over the past week, all conducted toward this all-hockey edition of Insider, has me wholly convinced of the accuracy of those two statements. And that's because, from everything I was told -- and it was a ton -- has me convinced that the bond, the mutual trust, the communication between Sullivan and Dubas ... it's all become stronger than ever.

Rather than spell all this out in storyboard form, I'll share a bunch of related bullets on this subject:

• Yes, these two really did reach an agreement on the firing of Todd Reirden. And I'm not just saying that because of Dubas' wording in the team's press release that both he and Sullivan "agree that this change was in the best interest of the team moving forward.” Emotions were sky-high on Long Island the night the season ended -- I was there and felt it -- and Dubas made the decision soon thereafter that it was no time to react rashly on any front. Reirden, the associate head coach, and the rest of Sullivan's staff were told it'd take a few days to determine their fate. That came at the two-week mark, only slightly longer than it takes most teams, and it came as the direct result of meetings between Dubas and Sullivan. Right to the end.

• Never at any stage of those meetings did any discussions become difficult, according to not one, not two but three individuals with direct knowledge, one of whom would have nothing to gain by saying so.

• Sullivan really won over Dubas through ... not so much the final-month surge but far more his relentless work ethic, his commitment to the team and the players and, yeah, his willingness to adapt and change as needed. The latter isn't to suggest that adaptation and change was imposed upon him, either. He just did that. And he did, as I've been writing for months, way more of that than might've been evident to the casual observer.

• Chief among those was to alter strategy and/or personnel choices with late leads, including the final minute of a period. Those didn't always work, of course, as was painfully obvious. But the seemingly common stance that Sullivan's too stubborn with his system was never accepted internally or, for that matter, by anyone peripherally familiar with hockey Xs and Os. Powerful case in point: Review film of any game over the final month and watch the Penguins' centers -- even Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin -- backpedaling to clog the neutral zone upon a clear loss of possession in the attacking zone. They might as well have blared on the big board 'STRATEGY CHANGE' to let everyone know.

• Sullivan had virtually no relationship with Dubas' predecessor, Ron Hextall. Nor was his input sought on significant moves. No one on the inside can put forth this example out loud, but I can and will: Anyone who thinks for a split-second that Sullivan would've wanted a player in the mold of Mikael Granlund would be out of their freaking minds. But Sullivan and his staff were as floored as anyone at the Granlund acquisition. There are enough examples like this to fill a month's worth of Insiders.

• In the starkest possible contrast, by all accounts, Dubas has consistently sought Sullivan's input, even on the most minor moves. The communication's been constant and healthy, to the extent that Sullivan's often told Dubas he simply trusts him to get the move right.

• Both men are embracing the challenge not only of elevating the team back into contention through Crosby's remaining years but also beyond. It's openly talked about, that period of molding a group of young players into the next era of Pittsburgh hockey, concurrently with the rest. And again by all accounts, they're on the same page with how this can unfold, as well.

• Sullivan's three-year, $15.5 million extension that starts with the coming season is among the NHL's most lucrative and, while there might be a suitor somewhere who'd outpay it, no approach has been made from any other team, and none would be considered by Dubas and, more importantly, Sullivan. The latter's made his loyalty known to all concerned. He wants to win again here.

Not sure what out of this subject I wouldn't have covered, but hey, any other questions?

On to other material:

• The awful power play was, predictably, the predominant factor in Reirden's firing, but it didn't help that he couldn't come close to succeeding in getting good play out of Ryan Graves. Working with the defensemen has long been a Reirden ... not just specialty but a strength. Not with this one.

• No timetable on a replacement.

• No doors have been slammed by either the Penguins or Jake Guentzel regarding a return, but neither side ever seems to express any optimism in my conversations. Might be because his price can only continue to go up and up and up as he keeps performing as well as he already has in these Stanley Cup playoffs.

New hobby it is then.

I don't know anyone narcissistic enough to watch that trash heap of a duo.

Basically we're going to expect horrific goaltending and a roster full of ZAR analytic darlings and sitting somewhere in the 12-16 spot in the East for the next decade?

 

[OnMyOwn]

I’d like Jake back just to help keep Sid’s production up until he retires. I’d prefer a different type of wing on his other side, though.

I doubt he comes back and will likely go to the highest bidder, or stay in Carolina. The Carolina’s in general are a pretty nice place to live.

 

[SomeDude]

Mike Sullivan's genuine ambition is to guide the Penguins through their next great wave.

The irony is the great wave facing the Pens at this point is Mike Sullivan.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The irony is the great wave facing the Pens at this point is Mike Sullivan.

"Only Mike Sullivan has the will, intellect and handsome strategy-brain to stop Mike Sullivan from doing what Mike Sullivan will probably do, anyway."

-Josh Yohe probably

 

[Deport Ogie]

Mike Sullivan as Gollum, arguing with himself in a rain puddle on Center Ave.

 

[SomeDude]

 

[JRS91]

I think if the team gets off to a bad start, he'll be gone.

I know Dubas seemingly being committed to Sullivan seems set in stone, but honestly nobody wants to lose their job. Committing yourself to a coach who hasn't made it past the 1st round in 6 years and hasn't made the playoffs in back-to-back seasons isn't necessarily smart.

This isn't the Penguins of a decade ago. Crosby, Malkin and Letang are still good players, but they can't carry a coach or team anymore. If the team is in dire straits again come December, I think they'll get rid of him. I wouldn't even be shocked if they hire an assistant that could potentially be his replacement. I think people are really taking Dubas' comments too literal, Sullivan definitely can and will be fired if ownership feels like it's time.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

From DK's Friday post:

Mike Sullivan's genuine ambition is to guide the Penguins through their next great wave.

Kyle Dubas' genuine ambition is precisely the same, including the part where Sullivan's behind the bench.

A series of conversations over the past week, all conducted toward this all-hockey edition of Insider, has me wholly convinced of the accuracy of those two statements. And that's because, from everything I was told -- and it was a ton -- has me convinced that the bond, the mutual trust, the communication between Sullivan and Dubas ... it's all become stronger than ever.

Rather than spell all this out in storyboard form, I'll share a bunch of related bullets on this subject:

• Yes, these two really did reach an agreement on the firing of Todd Reirden. And I'm not just saying that because of Dubas' wording in the team's press release that both he and Sullivan "agree that this change was in the best interest of the team moving forward.” Emotions were sky-high on Long Island the night the season ended -- I was there and felt it -- and Dubas made the decision soon thereafter that it was no time to react rashly on any front. Reirden, the associate head coach, and the rest of Sullivan's staff were told it'd take a few days to determine their fate. That came at the two-week mark, only slightly longer than it takes most teams, and it came as the direct result of meetings between Dubas and Sullivan. Right to the end.

• Never at any stage of those meetings did any discussions become difficult, according to not one, not two but three individuals with direct knowledge, one of whom would have nothing to gain by saying so.

• Sullivan really won over Dubas through ... not so much the final-month surge but far more his relentless work ethic, his commitment to the team and the players and, yeah, his willingness to adapt and change as needed. The latter isn't to suggest that adaptation and change was imposed upon him, either. He just did that. And he did, as I've been writing for months, way more of that than might've been evident to the casual observer.

• Chief among those was to alter strategy and/or personnel choices with late leads, including the final minute of a period. Those didn't always work, of course, as was painfully obvious. But the seemingly common stance that Sullivan's too stubborn with his system was never accepted internally or, for that matter, by anyone peripherally familiar with hockey Xs and Os. Powerful case in point: Review film of any game over the final month and watch the Penguins' centers -- even Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin -- backpedaling to clog the neutral zone upon a clear loss of possession in the attacking zone. They might as well have blared on the big board 'STRATEGY CHANGE' to let everyone know.

• Sullivan had virtually no relationship with Dubas' predecessor, Ron Hextall. Nor was his input sought on significant moves. No one on the inside can put forth this example out loud, but I can and will: Anyone who thinks for a split-second that Sullivan would've wanted a player in the mold of Mikael Granlund would be out of their freaking minds. But Sullivan and his staff were as floored as anyone at the Granlund acquisition. There are enough examples like this to fill a month's worth of Insiders.

• In the starkest possible contrast, by all accounts, Dubas has consistently sought Sullivan's input, even on the most minor moves. The communication's been constant and healthy, to the extent that Sullivan's often told Dubas he simply trusts him to get the move right.

• Both men are embracing the challenge not only of elevating the team back into contention through Crosby's remaining years but also beyond. It's openly talked about, that period of molding a group of young players into the next era of Pittsburgh hockey, concurrently with the rest. And again by all accounts, they're on the same page with how this can unfold, as well.

• Sullivan's three-year, $15.5 million extension that starts with the coming season is among the NHL's most lucrative and, while there might be a suitor somewhere who'd outpay it, no approach has been made from any other team, and none would be considered by Dubas and, more importantly, Sullivan. The latter's made his loyalty known to all concerned. He wants to win again here.

Not sure what out of this subject I wouldn't have covered, but hey, any other questions?

On to other material:

• The awful power play was, predictably, the predominant factor in Reirden's firing, but it didn't help that he couldn't come close to succeeding in getting good play out of Ryan Graves. Working with the defensemen has long been a Reirden ... not just specialty but a strength. Not with this one.

• No timetable on a replacement.

• No doors have been slammed by either the Penguins or Jake Guentzel regarding a return, but neither side ever seems to express any optimism in my conversations. Might be because his price can only continue to go up and up and up as he keeps performing as well as he already has in these Stanley Cup playoffs.

I hate this club so damn much.

They're becoming like an ex-wife who at one time you loved and adored with all your heart, but over time they kept doing something that caused you to divorce them and now you can't stand even the sight of them.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

Sullivan's becoming like the abusive father who wouldn't let you go to college, but also made sure to never teach you any marketable skills or life skills, so you'd be stuck under his thumb and never be able to get away from him.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I hate this club so damn much.

They're becoming like an ex-wife who at one time you loved and adored with all your heart, but over time they kept doing something that caused you to divorce them and now you can't stand even the sight of them.

Sullivan's becoming like the abusive father who wouldn't let you go to college, but also made sure to never teach you any marketable skills or life skills, so you'd be stuck under his thumb and never be able to get away from him.

Some folks need a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City or something.

Damn.

 

[vodeni]

I can't.

you are better for it, leave masochistics acts to Andy

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Some folks need a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City or something.

Damn.

I realize any news that involves Sullivan staying around forever is like Christmas morning to your ears, but allow the rest of us who can't stand the doofus to grieve the fact we're stuck with him.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Agreed. I don't really get it. The Canes are good in the regular season but regularly fall short in the playoffs. He gets held up as one of the best in the game annually and I'm not sure why.

A bit too much is made of coaches who can/can't "get it done" in the playoffs. People probably consider him a generally good coach because an 82-game sample-size is much larger than a playoff series. Stuff like their special teams' criticism, as well as the lack of an adaptive offensive gameplan, are fair and valid points --- as equally fair and valid as the fact that they had the bad luck of facing two of the best recent playoff goalies in Bob and Shesty in their most recent series losses. And how many of those games were 1-goal (+OT) losses? As we know, those games are basically coinflips in the playoffs.

It'll be his 6th year with the team, so you certainly can't blame them if they want to move on. You also couldn't blame Tampa for moving on from Cooper after his 6th year, again failing to win a cup with a superior roster, which ended in an embarrassing 1st round sweep to CLB. But then they went back-to-back (and even they needed the luck of the covid-bubble to get over the hump).

Hell, for all we know, BBQ Bruce is lifting a cup in Washington if he doesn't have to continually face two of the best modern centers in the game.

And speaking of WSH, Trotz, who was generally lauded as a great coach around these parts, is an OT crossbar away from going down 0-3 in Round 1 against CLB -- you think they're coming back from that to win a cup? I certainly don't. That's pure luck they don't go in that hole.

So yeah, in general, process-based analysis > results-based analysis, but there's certainly a point where the results reach a critical mass, and they can no longer be ignored and you throw the process out the window for a new one (ie, fire the coach and/or make a major trade).

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I realize any news that involves Sullivan staying around forever is like Christmas morning to your ears, but allow the rest of us who can't stand the doofus to grieve the fact we're stuck with him.

I get not wanting him around, but equating it to a hateful, spiteful marriage or especially child abuse is a bit hyperbolic.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I get not wanting him around, but equating it to a hateful, spiteful marriage or especially child abuse is a bit hyperbolic.

I didn't say the latter, so not sure why you're including that in your response to my post above.

However, it's called an example of how something you at one point really enjoyed/loved souring to the point you can't stand it now. That's how the Pens' management with their dumb ass decisions and their loyalty to Sullivan are for me. I used to love the Pens, but they're slowly making it that every single time they do something it irritates me beyond belief to the point I'm starting to "hate" them.

 

[Turin]

I didn't say the latter, so not sure why you're including that in your response to my post above.

However, it's called an example of how something you at one point really enjoyed/loved souring to the point you can't stand it now. That's how the Pens' management with their dumb ass decisions and their loyalty to Sullivan are for me. I used to love the Pens, but they're slowly making it that every single time they do something it irritates me beyond belief to the point I'm starting to "hate" them.

They made the playoffs 16 years in a row and won 3 Cups in 4 finals so no surprise you "used to love them" lol

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Marek and Friedman spoke about Keefe on 32 Thoughts. No mention of anything with the Penguins. Friedman seemed to be of the impression that Keefe will be a candidate for head coaching openings, though he may take a year off.

32 Thoughts: The Podcast

Hockey fans already know the name, but this is not the blog. From Sportsnet, 32 Thoughts: The Podcast with Jeff Marek and NHL Insider Elliotte Friedman is a weekly deep dive into the biggest news and interviews from the hockey world.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

So, Sullivan had more insight on every signing Dubas made, and the team got worse?

Then yes, definitely keep him around.

 

[farscape1]

Sooner Dubas and Sully are fired the better off the franchise will be. After watching the playoffs tonight and realizing we will probably never be there with these two around.

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

Some folks need a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City or something.

Damn.

What if you already live in one of those cities?

 

[Tender Rip]

Very depressing reading that DK post.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Some folks need a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City or something.

Damn.

Atlantic City is the worst place in the United States, would not recommend.

 

[Gurglesons]

Atlantic City is the worst place in the United States, would not recommend.

Put your makeup on, fix your hair up pretty

 

[HandshakeLine]

Put your makeup on, fix your hair up pretty

Mike Sullivan likes his hockey shitty

*harmonica break*