Official Coyotes 2019-2020 Roster Discussion Thread #6

[rt]

I still hate this hahaha. I'll happily eat crow if Keller doesn't get back to his rookie pace in two seasons though.

It's really not even anything against Keller at this point. I just see him and Schmaltz and Kessel as three highly paid wingers, who play similarly styled, perimeter-based games. I prefer Taylor Hall. I don't love having the entire salary cap eaten up by four wingers. With our center depth so abysmal, if we are going to re-sign Hall, I think we need to trade for a center. I look at Keller, Schmaltz, and Kessel, and I simply see Keller as the best piece we have to move for an actual 1B center. I really don't see how else we can get one.

I think this is especially important because Stepan is easily the most overpaid player on the team, and the ideal guy to move to gain cap-space for Hall. He's unfortunately also one of our few NHL caliber centers.

Click to read more...

 

[Jamieh]

I don't get why the Blues would give up Schenn for Keller?? He costs less, plays a more important position, and fits their style better??

 

[Grimes]

It's really not even anything against Keller at this point. I just see him and Schmaltz and Kessel as three highly paid wingers, who play similarly styled, perimeter-based games. I prefer Taylor Hall. I don't love having the entire salary cap eaten up by four wingers. With our center depth so abysmal, if we are going to re-sign Hall, I think we need to trade for a center. I look at Keller, Schmaltz, and Kessel, and I simply see Keller as the best piece we have to move for an actual 1B center. I really don't see how else we can get one.

I think this is especially important because Stepan is easily the most overpaid player on the team, and the ideal guy to move to gain cap-space for Hall. He's unfortunately also one of our few NHL caliber centers.

Have to agree that we are in a pickle with our center depth. Not re-signing one of Soda or Richie + moving Stepan for cap space really exposes us down the middle. I also don't want to walk into a situation where we move a young player for a player that is almost into the moonlight period of their career just to gain better depth for the next two seasons. It's a similar philosophy as draft BPA over positional need. I edited my last post too, but I think Schenn brings a lot of what we already have.

 

[rt]

I don't get why the Blues would give up Schenn for Keller?? He costs less, plays a more important position, and fits their style better??

Jaden Schwartz is a likely cap casualty to keep the captain. Robert Thomas is ready to take over the 2C spot. Bozak has no trade value. They never should have re-signed Faulk to that contract. But now they’ve got choices to make.

 

[Jamieh]

Jaden Schwartz is a likely cap casualty to keep the captain. Robert Thomas is ready to take over the 2C spot. Bozak has no trade value. They never should have re-signed Faulk to that contract. But now they’ve got choices to make.

But you are adding money to them?? Move someone to wing and keep Schenn over Keller.

 

[rt]

But you are adding money to them?? Move someone to wing and keep Schenn over Keller.

My plan is better than yours.

 

[Jamieh]

My plan is better than yours.

But unrealistic?? Keller is not getting you a 1A/B center at this point.

 

[Mosby]

I’d rather move Schmaltz than Keller. I’d move Kessel before either.

I like Schenn but he is more of what we already have, like a fake top line centre (Schmaltz, the NY version of Stepan). Same with Bozak, but I’d take him for none of the three Coyotes mentioned above.

I’m not so sure Petro is coming back to STL. Something weird going on there.

 

[rt]

Have to agree that we are in a pickle with our center depth. Not re-signing one of Soda or Richie + moving Stepan for cap space really exposes us down the middle. I also don't want to walk into a situation where we move a young player for a player that is almost into the moonlight period of their career just to gain better depth for the next two seasons. It's a similar philosophy as draft BPA over positional need. I edited my last post too, but I think Schenn brings a lot of what we already have.

It’s tough because we’re in a no-man’s land. Schenn is only two months older than Hall. We could just as easily let Hall walk and hang onto Keller, Schmaltz, Kessel and Stepan. Then we aren’t throwing good money after bad. There just aren’t any age groups on our roster or in our system that look any better than mildly substandard. So what the hell are we? Rebuilding? Contending? Young? Old? I don’t know. It’s kind of a mess.

Hall is easily our best player. Probably the best we’ve had in 20 years. And we paid a heavy price to get him. I want to keep him. But then what? What’s he going to do for us if he doesn’t have a center to play with?

Schenn would very likely be our 2nd best player right away. And likely the best center we’ve had in 20 years. As sad as both of those statements are. I don’t like them. But they seem true or close enough to true that the point still stands.

But then our two best players or at least two best forwards are suddenly guys in their late twenties on brand-new, long-term deals. And we still aren’t contenders. And we still have a bunch of missing draft picks. So are we immediately painted into a corner?

I feel like we are already in a trap of mediocrity and I’d rather watch better players while we tread the waters of purgatory. Lol.

I like Hall and Schenn because they are skilled, they are consistent, they produce, they play their balls off, they’re competitive and they play very direct, very hard driving games. I think they’re both fairly Tocchet-proof.

 

[rt]

But unrealistic?? Keller is not getting you a 1A/B center at this point.

I meant better for St Louis. I believe they’d absolutely trade Schenn for Keller if they plan to move Schwartz for Pietrangelo. And I believe they’d be better off. It’s a good trade for them on a number of fronts.

I understand your opinion, I just think you’re wrong.

 

[rt]

I’d rather move Schmaltz than Keller. I’d move Kessel before either.

I like Schenn but he is more of what we already have, like a fake top line centre (Schmaltz, the NY version of Stepan). Same with Bozak, but I’d take him for none of the three Coyotes mentioned above.

I’m not so sure Petro is coming back to STL. Something weird going on there.

Kessel can’t return anything in a trade. He’s untradable.

Schmaltz is even less likely to get us what we need then Keller. And he’s also cheaper.

 

[rt]

Is there any way to get Monahan in a deal for Keller, where we don't have to add Dvorak or Hayton? I'd also say that for the sake of our future beyond next season, we'd have to take Chychrun and Soderstrom off the table.

Does Keller even move the needle? What can we add? Seems like they could use Raanta, right? What if we send him with Keller and eat 50% of his contract? Add a guy like Jenik or Maccelli? Our 2nd this year? Whatever pick Jersey doen't get next year? Would they even want Stepan if we retained salary?

 

[Grimes]

It’s tough because we’re in a no-man’s land. Schenn is only two months older than Hall. We could just as easily let Hall walk and hang onto Keller, Schmaltz, Kessel and Stepan. Then we aren’t throwing good money after bad. There just aren’t any age groups on our roster or in our system that look any better than mildly substandard. So what the hell are we? Rebuilding? Contending? Young? Old? I don’t know. It’s kind of a mess.

Hall is easily our best player. Probably the best we’ve had in 20 years. And we paid a heavy price to get him. I want to keep him. But then what? What’s he going to do for us if he doesn’t have a center to play with?

Schenn would very likely be our 2nd best player right away. And likely the best center we’ve had in 20 years. As sad as both of those statements are. I don’t like them. But they seem true or close enough to true that the point still stands.

But then our two best players or at least two best forwards are suddenly guys in their late twenties on brand-new, long-term deals. And we still aren’t contenders. And we still have a bunch of missing draft picks. So are we immediately painted into a corner?

I feel like we are already in a trap of mediocrity and I’d rather watch better players while we tread the waters of purgatory. Lol.

I like Hall and Schenn because they are skilled, they are consistent, they produce, they play their balls off, they’re competitive and they play very direct, very hard driving games. I think they’re both fairly Tocchet-proof.

Agree with all of this. But I do feel if you move Keller out and bring Schenn in you just fill one area of weakness while creating another.
Hall-Schenn-Garland looks great, but then what?
Crouse-Dvo-Schmaltz
Hino-Hayton-Kessel* Phil really bit us in the ass. Way worse than I could have imagined.

That top nine doesn't look any less underwhelming than what we have currently to be honest. Kessel was supposed to put us over the top for a year or two, he didn't even do that for a month this season. We go out and get Hall, which really did solidify the top nine, but everyone's legs started falling off because of RT's marathon of a system. Things just look off and Schenn doesn't really fix a chemistry problem to me. I'd love a coach with the gall to put Schmaltz at center, but can surround him with wingers to make up for his defensive lapses (Lav) or one who can make systematic adjustments throughout the game but also knows when to let players play (Bruce). I don't think that will happen next year which is a shame, so I'd almost rather hold pat and see what we have in Sodastrom, Hayton and Jenik. I would be disgusted to watch Keller become a 70 point winger somewhere else, while Schenn becomes a 48 point center here, I can't do another one of these types of moves yet.

 

[rt]

I would be disgusted to watch Keller become a 70 point winger somewhere else, while Schenn becomes a 48 point center here, I can't do another one of these types of moves yet.

Which is probably exactly what would happen. Haha. Damn.

 

[rt]

Agree with all of this. But I do feel if you move Keller out and bring Schenn in you just fill one area of weakness while creating another.
Hall-Schenn-Garland looks great, but then what?
Crouse-Dvo-Schmaltz
Hino-Hayton-Kessel* Phil really bit us in the ass. Way worse than I could have imagined.

I'm going to get crazy because why not?

To STL:
Keller
Fischer

To ARI:
Schenn
Kyrou
--
To OTT:
Stepan
Raanta
Hossa

To ARI:
Carcone
--
To MTL:
Goligoski

To ARI:
WSH '20 3rd
--
To MIN:
Schmaltz

To ARI:
Dumba
--
To NSH:
Oesterle

To ARI:
A.Watson
--
Sign: Hall
--
Win Lotto/Draft: Lafreniere
--
Hall-B.Schenn-Kessel
Lafreniere-Dvo-Garland
Crouse-Hayton-Hinostroza
Grabner-Richardson-Kyrou
A.Watson

Chychrun-Dumba
Ekman-Larsson-Demers
Hjalmarsson-Soderstrom
Lyubushkin

Kuemper
Hill

 

[rt]

^ all of that shuffling, and it still looks like a damn bubble team. Haha

 

[Grimes]

Is there any way to get Monahan in a deal for Keller, where we don't have to add Dvorak or Hayton? I'd also say that for the sake of our future beyond next season, we'd have to take Chychrun and Soderstrom off the table.

Does Keller even move the needle? What can we add? Seems like they could use Raanta, right? What if we send him with Keller and eat 50% of his contract? Add a guy like Jenik or Maccelli? Our 2nd this year? Whatever pick Jersey doen't get next year? Would they even want Stepan if we retained salary?

This is way more interesting to me. Raanta should be of interest and should equate to roughly a late 2nd pick to a goalie needy team. I don't think they make this move without a center coming back. Their forward prospect pool is pretty shallow. We've sniffed around using Dvo to see if we can pull anything out of the ground before. Him and Matty have a history together. Most "blockbuster" trades feel a little overwhelming for the team moving the problem piece. If there truly is an issue in the locker room I think Dvo + Raanta + Maccelli gets you closer than expected. I see less of a fit for Keller there than I do in STL.

 

[rt]

To EDM:
OEL

To ARI:
RNH

^ Hall re-signs to play with his buddy Nuge, and Nuge re-signs to play with his buddy Hall.

We trade Stepan, Raanta, and Hossa to Ottawa for Carcone to make the cap-room for Hall.

To MIN:
Schmaltz

To ARI:
Dumba

^ Makes up for the loss of OEL to some extent

 

[rt]

This is way more interesting to me. Raanta should be of interest and should equate to roughly a late 2nd pick to a goalie needy team. I don't think they make this move without a center coming back. Their forward prospect pool is pretty shallow. We've sniffed around using Dvo to see if we can pull anything out of the ground before. Him and Matty have a history together. Most "blockbuster" trades feel a little overwhelming for the team moving the problem piece. If there truly is an issue in the locker room I think Dvo + Raanta + Maccelli gets you closer than expected. I see less of a fit for Keller there than I do in STL.

Damn. That's interesting alright.

 

[Jamieh]

The OEL for RNH is the most sensible deal you suggest when you consider a deal that both teams would have some interest in. You can add to both sides to make the move make even more sense.

 

[Grimes]

To EDM:
OEL

To ARI:
RNH

^ Hall re-signs to play with his buddy Nuge, and Nuge re-signs to play with his buddy Hall.

We trade Stepan, Raanta, and Hossa to Ottawa for Carcone to make the cap-room for Hall.

To MIN:
Schmaltz

To ARI:
Dumba

^ Makes up for the loss of OEL to some extent

I like this more than the Schenn scenario too. RNH isn't as gritty as Schenn but is started to flash toughness, but you also move some pudding out by moving Schmaltz. I think RNH brings a skill set to the center position that Hayton and Dvo do not have too.

I think EDM adds to land OEL too, especially if OEL has a good playoff which helps us acquire assets we lost when we picked up Hall.

 

[rt]

The OEL for RNH is the most sensible deal you suggest when you consider a deal that both teams would have some interest in. You can add to both sides to make the move make even more sense.

-OEL for Nuge
-Schmaltz for Dumba
-Stepan, Raanta, Hossa for Carcone

Hall-Nuge-Kessel
Keller-Dvorak-Garland
Crouse-Hayton-Hinostroza
Grabner-Richardson-Fischer

Chychrun-Dumba
Goligoski-Demers
Hjalmarsson-Soderstrom
Oesterle-Lyubushkin

Kuemper
Hill/UFA

 

[TheLegend]

Moved the last page of #5 here because you guys got damned prolific all of a sudden.

 

[Grimes]

-OEL for Nuge
-Schmaltz for Dumba
-Stepan, Raanta, Hossa for Carcone

Hall-Nuge-Kessel
Keller-Dvorak-Garland
Crouse-Hayton-Hinostroza
Grabner-Richardson-Fischer

Chychrun-Dumba
Goligoski-Demers
Hjalmarsson-Soderstrom
Oesterle-Lyubushkin

Kuemper
Hill/UFA

I don't mind this. RNH just turned 27 in April where Schenn will be 29 in August. Monahan turns 26 in October. Surprisingly RNH isn't too much older than Sean. I also didn't realize Monahan had a 40 point season, anyone know what happened? He didn't miss games. Is his production part of the reason why there are rumors surrounding him?

 

[Canis Latrans]

It’s tough because we’re in a no-man’s land. Schenn is only two months older than Hall. We could just as easily let Hall walk and hang onto Keller, Schmaltz, Kessel and Stepan. Then we aren’t throwing good money after bad. There just aren’t any age groups on our roster or in our system that look any better than mildly substandard. So what the hell are we? Rebuilding? Contending? Young? Old? I don’t know. It’s kind of a mess.

Hall is easily our best player. Probably the best we’ve had in 20 years. And we paid a heavy price to get him. I want to keep him. But then what? What’s he going to do for us if he doesn’t have a center to play with?

Schenn would very likely be our 2nd best player right away. And likely the best center we’ve had in 20 years. As sad as both of those statements are. I don’t like them. But they seem true or close enough to true that the point still stands.

But then our two best players or at least two best forwards are suddenly guys in their late twenties on brand-new, long-term deals. And we still aren’t contenders. And we still have a bunch of missing draft picks. So are we immediately painted into a corner?

I feel like we are already in a trap of mediocrity and I’d rather watch better players while we tread the waters of purgatory. Lol.

I like Hall and Schenn because they are skilled, they are consistent, they produce, they play their balls off, they’re competitive and they play very direct, very hard driving games. I think they’re both fairly Tocchet-proof.

I really doubt Keller is even on the trading block. I think Chayka isn't going to look at next season's status in a vacuum, instead the goal is going to be to clear enough space without entirely decimating the roster in order to accommodate resigning Hall. So next season may look like a lateral move with maybe some casualties to depth and veterans as we make space when the team should be jockeying to solidly make the playoffs as many would project our expectation to be. It'd be easier if the cap had gone up slightly, but it is what it is at this point. After next season, there is so much more space to the cap that we can compliment the core and the team direction will be much easier to read, and I'd predict it'll be taking steps into contending for the division and beyond.

One further point to be made about the high cost veterans who are holding a lot of the cap hostage - since it'll be their last season on their contracts, they may actually play better than of late. That seems to be a rather common phenomenon so a bump in production there may cover up whatever it is we give up to get through next season.