Salary Cap: Official Cap Hell / Contracts Thread
- Thread starter Lord Stan 2020
- Start date
That's roughly 50 million for 8 players. We still have Callahan, Carle, Filpulla and Garrison making 20 million so we have 12 players taking up the entire cap. Those numbers won't work even if we move Carle and another big contract out.
Victhor Ollesson
Registered User
Stamkos at that cap hit would be disastrous. I think we let him walk. I think that Killorn will be gone eventually as well. The Filppula and Callahan deals may prove troublesome, but I think Filppula's is at least moveable without retention. Hope to see something like:
Bishop - 4 years, $30M ($7.5M AAV)
Hedman - 8 years, $67M ($8.375M AAV)
Kucherov - 8 years, $55M ($6.875M AAV)
Palat - 6 years, $36M ($6.0M AAV)
Johnson - 6 years, $36M ($6.0M AAV)
Namestnikov - 2 years, $4.5M ($2.25M AAV)
Paquette - 2 years, $2M ($1.0M AAV)
Brown - 3 years, $3.75M ($1.25M AAV)
7.5 for Bishop for 4 years? He'll be 31 soon after the seasons starts when that deal kicks in and it will take him till he's 35. That's disgusting for a goalie. You can't do more then a 2 year deal with him.
Victhor Ollesson
Registered User
Good luck.
I am hoping for shorter term too. Let's just hope Vasi is ready by then, because Bishop will want term.
CarpeNoctem
Chilling w The Chief
Yet you're saying we should be trying to move Stamkos, which flies fully in the face of your "win now" philosophy. The only teams who would make an offer for him wouldn't be offering anything that would affect their own ability to "win now."
Also, Vasy will get the starting job when he proves he's better than Bishop. That won't be an easy thing to do in the next two years.
Bolt32
Registered User
I'm all for giving Kucherov a seven or eight year deal. I wouldn't mind giving him 7 million a year either, think he just emerging as a Franchise Winger. I don't see that changing in four to five years time. Barring something drastic, I'm confident in saying that we are witnessing a Future Hall of Famer just breaking in into his own. I'm that high on him. In my guess? 6.75 million. Though I wouldn't be shocked if he takes a little less. Hes not going to shoot himself in the foot though with a pay cut however.
CarpeNoctem
Chilling w The Chief
Yes, good point and you are obviously correct except for the underlined portion. That's, at best for your position, arguable, as we have no specific information on that, as far as I know. That's not to say your hypothesis isn't potentially correct, but we don't know that it is.
Part of my Yzerman related complaint is that he seems to really want it both ways, win now and keep all the assets for later, but we both know it doesn't work that way. Him trading Stamkos could be viewed as picking one of the two plans. Trading him for mostly future assets would allow us the cap flexibility to keep a lot of our young core together, but holding onto him without being willing to make other moves simply seems wonky, as it may represent the win now mentality, as you suggested, or at the very least be a big gamble for the short-run.
Actually, it does work very much that way. The Wings have been contending or near-contending for the last 25 years, and have a cup and two finals appearances in the cap era doing exactly that.
What team do you see that would be willing to trade an asset for Stamkos that would actually improve us in the here and now? Contenders trade futures. They "buy." Non-contenders "sell."
We're still a team that made the SCF last year. It's not easy to move pieces of that roster just because the team hasn't performed in the short-term, especially if you're trying to make a BETTER roster rather than simply a DIFFERENT roster.
We need a PP quarterback. Those don't come cheap. We have no way of knowing what other teams are asking for. Would you give up Palat? I wouldn't. But that's a reasonable asking price from another team if they're solving one of our biggest issues. It's not going to be Killorn +.
CarpeNoctem
Chilling w The Chief
We do of course agree on that and a lot of other things. Give up Palat? I dono. It'd have to be a good PP QB with a reasonable cap hit and signed for 2+ years. Palat really reminds me of Jere Lehtinen in some ways, and that's a huge compliment. I'd be quite fine with letting go of Killorn to get one though
Lord Stan 2020
Elite fan
CarpeNoctem
Chilling w The Chief
These Are The Days
Oh no! We suck again!!
Mods you can nuke this or we can let it die if needed. But I've noticed that in a Stamkos thread we're talking about everyone's contracts. I don't know, maybe it's my OCD but I'd want to keep the talk strictly to Stamkos in that thread since he's so important. Here we'd have a place where we can talk about everyone else.
Anyway I've rambled long enough. You guys know what to do here.
Anyway I've rambled long enough. You guys know what to do here.
The Gongshow
Fire JBB
If they choose to resign Stamkos that really puts a dent on things. Considering Kucherov and Hedman are getting BIG paydays and are two players we can't lose.
Johnson and Palat will be getting raises, Killorn with a little bit of a raise. Do they bridge Drouin as a sign of good faith or wait for his rookie contract to end and maybe owe him more?!?
Then theres the whole Bishop/Vasi thing. Do they pay Bish or let him go and hope Vasi can develop into something great.
Yzerman has some big decisions to make that could make or break the team
Johnson and Palat will be getting raises, Killorn with a little bit of a raise. Do they bridge Drouin as a sign of good faith or wait for his rookie contract to end and maybe owe him more?!?
Then theres the whole Bishop/Vasi thing. Do they pay Bish or let him go and hope Vasi can develop into something great.
Yzerman has some big decisions to make that could make or break the team
LightningStrikes
Champa Bay Lightning
- Nov 24, 2009
- 26,237
- 10,091
To me, the absolute nucleus of this team is Bishop and Hedman, with Kucherov pretty close to cementing himself too. For argument's sake, I'll say Bishop, Hedman, and Kucherov, and I don't think we can make any moves that jeopardizes the future of those three with the team.
We're really weighing Stamkos against guys like Johnson, Palat. I wouldn't be comfortable risking either of those players either.
Stamkos just feels kind of low on the pecking order. When we're clicking on all cylinders, he's a second liner. It seems like he's only a first liner when we're struggling and/or injured.
We're really weighing Stamkos against guys like Johnson, Palat. I wouldn't be comfortable risking either of those players either.
Stamkos just feels kind of low on the pecking order. When we're clicking on all cylinders, he's a second liner. It seems like he's only a first liner when we're struggling and/or injured.
The Gongshow
Fire JBB
IMO Kucherov has absolutely cemented himself as part of the nucleus and it's he and Hedman who are the two set in stone "keep at all cost" players. As amazing as Bishop is he more expendable than Kuch as there's a better chance that Vasy becomes an elite goalie (or at least one good enough to win a Cup with) than there is that we can get another forward of Kucherov's caliber. Losing Bishop might set us back a year or two before Vasy hits his stride but losing Kucherov would kill us offensively for years to come. Obviously we want to hang onto Bishop if it's practical to do so, but if somebody offers him an absurd contract at some point we would be better off going with Vasy and using the cap savings to improve in other areas so that we don't need a top 3 goalie carrying the team to be competitive.
The problem is that unless we're willing to give up on Vasy this summer and accept that he will be exposed and potentially lost to the expansion draft next year, we can't resign Bishop before he hits free agency and therefore cannot know for certain what his cost will be when it comes to making a decision on Stamkos. Maybe Yzerman decides that Bishop is too important to risk losing and that he'd rather give up on Vasy now and worry about finding Bishop's eventual replacement down the road, but if he's going to try to keep both goalies then the best he (and we) can do is guess at what it would take to resign Bish and base his/our decision on that (well technically Yzerman could present his strategy to Bishop and discuss how much he'll want, but it wouldn't be binding so it's really just a more informed guess than we can make.) The risk of course is that we let Stamkos walk now and then Bishop leaves the following year, but we would at least get the consolation prize of having a ton of cap space to work with so it wouldn't be all bad.
Assuming that we are going to try to keep Bishop and either extend him now or designate a reasonable amount for his raise next summer, that leaves Stamkos versus the likes of Johnson, Palat, Drouin, and Killorn. Johnson has been better in the playoffs and the injury concerns between the two offset at this point, and I would argue that Drouin will be better than Stamkos going forward. That leaves us finally with one-dimensional goal scorer Stamkos against multi-dimensional 200 foot players Palat and Killorn, and I would go with the depth, flexibility, and lower risk option myself. So Stamkos goes.
This is all assuming that Carle is bought out and Filppula is traded, but that we keep Callahan (because his contract is immovable) and Garrison (because he's too valuable to our defense.) If we could somehow move Cally without retaining too much then we might have more options, but otherwise I think we're looking at losing Stammer in order to retain everybody else of importance.
The problem is that unless we're willing to give up on Vasy this summer and accept that he will be exposed and potentially lost to the expansion draft next year, we can't resign Bishop before he hits free agency and therefore cannot know for certain what his cost will be when it comes to making a decision on Stamkos. Maybe Yzerman decides that Bishop is too important to risk losing and that he'd rather give up on Vasy now and worry about finding Bishop's eventual replacement down the road, but if he's going to try to keep both goalies then the best he (and we) can do is guess at what it would take to resign Bish and base his/our decision on that (well technically Yzerman could present his strategy to Bishop and discuss how much he'll want, but it wouldn't be binding so it's really just a more informed guess than we can make.) The risk of course is that we let Stamkos walk now and then Bishop leaves the following year, but we would at least get the consolation prize of having a ton of cap space to work with so it wouldn't be all bad.
Assuming that we are going to try to keep Bishop and either extend him now or designate a reasonable amount for his raise next summer, that leaves Stamkos versus the likes of Johnson, Palat, Drouin, and Killorn. Johnson has been better in the playoffs and the injury concerns between the two offset at this point, and I would argue that Drouin will be better than Stamkos going forward. That leaves us finally with one-dimensional goal scorer Stamkos against multi-dimensional 200 foot players Palat and Killorn, and I would go with the depth, flexibility, and lower risk option myself. So Stamkos goes.
This is all assuming that Carle is bought out and Filppula is traded, but that we keep Callahan (because his contract is immovable) and Garrison (because he's too valuable to our defense.) If we could somehow move Cally without retaining too much then we might have more options, but otherwise I think we're looking at losing Stammer in order to retain everybody else of importance.
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I can't defend Cally's contract anymore even if I disagree with some people here about his performance and worth, but I feel he should get at least one more season to try and get back to his previous season form or at least close to it, before being thrown under the bus with the other bad contracts and people wanting him to be moved. But it is what is best for the team. I understand that. But I truly feel he has been a big part of this team in the last 2 seasons and don't think he should be moved even with the cap issues.
I apologize for some of my over the top posts, and appreciate the civil replies but yeah I have been overkill, but want him to be a big part of this team for the next several seasons and maybe even retire as a Bolt, which I know is a long-shot now. I take it personally, well some of you know why, but also because would not be here if he did not get traded, and this team has been great rooting for, love going to the games down in Tampa, and embracing Florida hockey has just been awesome! Thanks.
I apologize for some of my over the top posts, and appreciate the civil replies but yeah I have been overkill, but want him to be a big part of this team for the next several seasons and maybe even retire as a Bolt, which I know is a long-shot now. I take it personally, well some of you know why, but also because would not be here if he did not get traded, and this team has been great rooting for, love going to the games down in Tampa, and embracing Florida hockey has just been awesome! Thanks.
JedYzerman
Registered User
I think it is this kind of sentiment that may get Stamkos to take less money. If he wants a chance at the cup within a 5 year period he is going to need to stay. There are no contenders out there with the cap space, except maybe the Ducks. At the start of the season I was saying there is no way Stamkos walks, no I see it as there is no way he stays. Because there is no way he is going to take enough of a discount to warrant keeping him. With all the other talent we have to sign, we cannot have 10m+ /yr going to one guy. I think Yzerman know this too. I think Stamkos know this.
These Are The Days
Oh no! We suck again!!
Hedman and Kucherov CAN NOT be parted with and Johnson and Drouin have made a heck of a case for themselves too. Unfortunately a decision about Vasilevskiy and Bishop will have to be made and I cannot justify waiting for an expansion to take one of them from us. At this point I think we re-sign Bishop and part with Vasilevskiy via trade so we don't lose him for nothing. It'll be much easier to trade Vasilevskiy and get a SOMEWHAT comparable return. You'd be trading a Corvette and getting a Mustang back. With Bishop you'd be trading a Ferrari and get back a Corvette and a Mustang. It's just not worth it.
As it comes to Stamkos... if we win this Pittsburgh series it proves we do not need him. Coming back will be his choice alone and he will be forced to do it on our terms because we will have proven we can make it to a SCF without him.
Kucherov- $7 million x 8 years if you can convince him to sign that low
Hedman- $8 million x 8 years
Bishop- $7.5 million x 5 years at minimum since we can likely rely on him to play well into his early 30's and it'll afford us time to draft and develop a new goaltender
Start here and figure out the rest
As it comes to Stamkos... if we win this Pittsburgh series it proves we do not need him. Coming back will be his choice alone and he will be forced to do it on our terms because we will have proven we can make it to a SCF without him.
Kucherov- $7 million x 8 years if you can convince him to sign that low
Hedman- $8 million x 8 years
Bishop- $7.5 million x 5 years at minimum since we can likely rely on him to play well into his early 30's and it'll afford us time to draft and develop a new goaltender
Start here and figure out the rest
That's probably the case, but there are some alternatives that I could see Yzerman possibly going with. Maybe he figures that he needs center depth more than he needs goalie depth and that Vasy makes Bishop more expendable than a guy who despite all his issues is still our leading goal scorer. Maybe he figures that pairing Drouin 2.0 with Stamkos for an entire season would return Stammer to his old self and make Johnson/Palat + Killorn expendable. Maybe he decides to keep our scoring depth over our defensive depth and moves Garrison. I wouldn't do any of those things, and I think most of the people on this board wouldn't, but that's not to say that Yzerman won't if he believes that Stamkos will somehow return to form, stay healthy, and perform in the playoffs. Way too many 'if's there for my taste but who knows how Yzerman will see it.
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