Official All-Encompassing "Will Marner be a C or W?" Thread (1C's are hard to get)

[schenneuf]

Look at the C’s around the league. We have a bottom 3 group of centers and it's not even close (maybe only New Jersey is worse), and no centers in the pipeline other than Gauthier (who projects to be a 3C at best). Nylander will be a W imo, albeit a damn good one. His game is not suited for C; he’s a prototypical winger and that’s what he’ll be.

Nylander, five-foot-11 and 174 pounds, who Toronto selected eighth overall at the 2014 NHL Draft, has played the left-wing since joining the Marlies and Dineen has no intention of moving him to centre anytime soon.

Boston – Bergeron/Krejci/Soderberg/Kelly
Buffalo – Eichel/Girgensons/Reinhart/Grigorenko
Detroit – Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Sheahan/Helm/Glendenning
Montreal – Plekanec/Desharnais/de la Rose/Eller/Galchenyuk
Ottawa – Turris/Zibanejad/Lazar/Legwand
Tampa Bay – Stamkos/Johnson/Filppula/Boyle
Toronto – Bozak/Kadri/Holland/Gauthier
Florida – Barkov/Bjugstad/Bolland/Trocheck

Carolina – E. Staal/J. Staal/Lindholm/Rask
New Jersey – Henrique/Zajac/Gomez/Josefson
Islanders – Tavares/Nielsen/Nelson/Strome
Philadelphia – Giroux/Couturier/Laughton/Bellemare
Pittsburgh – Crosby/Malkin/Sutter
Washington – Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Fehr/Brouwer
Columbus – Johansen/Dubinsky/Wennberg/Anisimov/Letestu

Chicago – Toews/Richards/Shaw/Kruger/Smith/Teravainen
Dallas – Seguin/Benn/Spezza/Eakin/Fiddler/Horcoff
Colorado – Duchene/O’Reilly/MacKinnon/Mitchell
St. Louis – Backes/Stastny/Lehtera/Berglund/Steen/Lapierre/Goc
Nashville – Ribeiro/Fisher/Gaustad/Cullen/Jarnkrok
Winnipeg – Little/Scheifele/Lowry/Perreault/Slater
Minnesota – Koivu/Granlund/Coyle/Brodziak/Haula
Calgary – Monahan/Bennett/Backlund/Jooris/Stajan/Colborne
Oilers – McDavid/Nugent-Hopkins/Draisaitl/Yakimov/Lander
Los Angeles – Kopitar/Carter/Stoll/Richards/Shore
San Jose – Pavelski/Thornton/Couture/Marleau/Tierney/Sheppard
Vancouver – H. Sedin/Bonino/Horvat/Vey/Richardson
Arizona – Hanzal/Gagner/Chipchura/Vitale
Anaheim – Getzlaf/Kesler/Rakell/Thompson/Karlsson

I suggest everyone watch Marc Bergevin’s press conference “Season Review: Marc Bergevin (Part 3)” found here (see his frustration at how incredibly hard it is to get a 1C): http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=822927

Things a C needs to do: take 1000-1500 faceoffs per year (and make 50% of them), play elite D on opposing 1C’s, win battles along the boards, control the play below the dots, make others around him better, play a 200 ft game, control the pace of the game both defensively and offensively.

Past/recent 1C and 2C’s:

Thornton (1st overall, 1997)

Lecavalier (1st overall, 1998), Fisher (44th overall, 1998), Ribeiro (45th overall, 1998), Datsyuk (171st overall, 1998)

H. Sedin (3rd overall, 1999), Zetterberg (210th overall, 1999)

Spezza (2nd overall, 2001), Koivu (6th overall, 2001), Plekanec (71st overall, 2011)

Steen (24th overall, 2002), Nielsen (87th overall, 2002), Filppula (95th overall, 2002)

Eric Staal (2nd overall, 2003), Carter (11th overall, 2003), Getzlaf 19th overall, 2003), Kesler (23rd overall, 2003), Bergeron (45th overall, 2003), Backes (62nd overall, 2003), Pavelski (205th overall, 2003)

Malkin (2nd overall, 2004)

Crosby (1st overall, 2005), Kopitar (11th overall, 2005), Stastny (44th overall, 2005), Desharnais (undrafted – 2005)

Toews (3rd overall, 2006), Backstrom (4th overall, 2006), Brassard (6th overall, 2006), Giroux (22nd overall, 2006)

Turris (3rd overall, 2007), Couture (9th overall, 2007), Benn (129th overall, 2007)

Stamkos (1st overall, 2008), Stepan (51st overall, 2008)

Tavares (1st overall, 2009), Duchene (3rd overall, 2009), O’Reilly (33rd overall, 2009), Johnson (undrafted - 2009)

Seguin (2nd overall, 2010), Johansen (4th overall, 2010)

Nugent-Hopkins (1st overall, 2011), Strome (5th overall, 2011), Zibanejad (6th, 2011), Couturier (8th overall, 2011)

Barkov (2nd overall, 2013), Monahan (6th overall, 2013)

Reinhart (2nd overall, 2014), Bennett (4th overall, 2014)

McDavid (1st overall, 2014), Eichel (2nd overall, 2015)

Cup winners’ depth at C:

2014 – Kings – Kopitar/Carter/Stoll (Doughty + Quick)
2013 – Hawks – Toews/Handzus (Keith + Seabrook)
2012 – Kings – Kopitar/Carter (Doughty + Quick)
2011 – Bruins – Bergeron/Krejci (Chara + Thomas)
2010 – Hawks – Toews (Keith + Seabrook)
2009 – Penguins – Crosby/Malkin/Staal
2008 – Red Wings – Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Filppula (Lidstrom + Kronwall + Rafalski)
2007 – Ducks – Getzlaf/McDonald/Pahlsson (Pronger + Niedermayer + Beauchemin + Giguere)
2006 – Hurricanes – Staal/Brind’Amour (Ward)
2004 – Lightning – Lecavalier/Richards
2003 – Devils – Gomez/Nieuwendyk/Madden (Niedermayer + Stevens + Rafalski + Brodeur)
2002 – Wings – Yzerman/Fedorov/Larionov (Lidstrom)
2001 – Avalanche – Sakic/Forsberg (Bourque + Roy)
2000 – Devils - Gomez/Holik/Arnott/Madden (Niedermayer + Stevens + Rafalski + Brodeur)
1999 – Stars – Modano/Nieuwendyk/Carbonneau/Skrudland (Zubov + Hatcher + Belfour)
1998 – Red Wings - Yzerman/Fedorov/Larionov (Lidstrom)
1997 – Red Wings – Yzerman/Fedorov/Larionov (Lidstrom)
1996 – Avalanche – Sakic/Forsberg/Ricci (Ozolinsh + Foote + Roy)
1995 – Devils – Holik/Broten (Niedermayer + Stevens + Brodeur)
1994 – Rangers – Messier (Leetch + Zubov + Richter)
1993 – Canadiens – Damphousse/Carbonneau (Desjardins + Roy)
1992 – Penguins – Lemieux/Francis/Trottier
1991 – Penguins – Lemieux/Francis/Trottier
1990 – Oilers – Messier
1989 – Flames – Gilmour/Nieuwendyk/Otto (MacInnis)
1988 – Oilers – Gretzky/Messier
1987 – Oilers – Gretzky/Messier
1986 – Canadiens – Smith/Carbonneau/Skrudland (Roy)
1985 – Oilers – Gretzky/Messier
1984 – Oilers – Gretzky/Messier
1983 – Islanders – Trottier/Goring/Merrick (Potvin)
1983 – Islanders – Trottier/Goring/Merrick (Potvin)
1981 – Islanders – Trottier/Goring/Merrick (Potvin)
1980 – Islanders – Trottier/Goring/Merrick (Potvin)


Bonafide No. 1 centers are awesome. History has shown that without a 1C you literally have zero chance at winning the cup. Maybe, pragmatically, winning the cup isn't Toronto's real goal? Maybe it's to simply be an annual playoff team for a decade. This is quite a reasonable and optimistic goal given the sad state of affairs in Leafland over the past 10 years, and ownership would ecstatically welcome that kind of “success” with open arms.

Maybe that’s ownership directive, deep down? Make the 2nd round a few times. Maybe even make the ECF, something they have done only 4 times in the last 36 years. Since 1979, the closest the Leafs have gotten to the Stanley Cup has been making the ECF in 2002 (Sundin), 1999 (Sundin), 1994 (Gilmour), and 1993 (Gilmour). That’s right, for many Leaf fans, making the ECF has been their own personal mini version of winning the cup because it’s the most success the team has had during their lifetime. I’ll never forget when the Sundin-led Leafs made the ECF in 2002 along with heart-and-soul types like Roberts, Tucker, etc, or the Gilmour playoffs in 1993. The only time the Leafs have had success has been with a #1C (Sundin, Gilmour).

You can't win without a 1C. Before you say it, yes, most cup winners have a 1D and/or a 1G as well, but not always, but ALL all cup champs always have at least one 1C - and sometimes two.

Are we **** if Marner doesn’t become a 1C? If he doesn’t live up to the Giroux potential? If he merely becomes a winger?

Click to read more...

 

[Paradoc]

How are we ****ed if doesn't become a center? He'll be our Patty Kane, Henrik Zetterberg, etc. You clearly have an agenda here...

 

[schenneuf]

How are we ****ed if doesn't become a center? He'll be our Patty Kane, Henrik Zetterberg, etc. You clearly have an agenda here...

Zetterberg is a 1C, who can also play W.

Kane would be nothing without a 1C like Toews. He'd just be a Kessel, but better. Would still need a 1C to play behind.

 

[KGL]

No we're not ****ed if Marner doesn't become a centre. Not like he's our last and only chance at a #1 centre. This rebuild will take awhile, we'll be picking high for awhile...plus Hunter and Dubas will do great with picking. If Marner doesn't end up being our #1 C (Which I think he will if we draft him) then someone else will.

 

[Paradoc]

Zetterberg is a 1C, who can also play W.

Kane would be nothing without a 1C like Toews. He'd just be a Kessel, but better. Would still need a 1C to play behind.

Toews would be nothing without Patty Kane (Conn smythe trophy winner). Marner could very well play center, but play winger just like Zetterberg.

Also, we don't need a 1C right now when we are so early into our rebuild. Even if Marner becomes a winger there will still be great center man available in the draft next year. I would rather take our so call winger if he's projected to become better players than Hanifin, Strome, Barzal, Zacha.

 

[TheLeafsBro]

Imo he has the defensive prowess and intelligence to do it. But it will take a tremendous amount of work on his part with a ton of support from babcock and management to develop him as a C. It's doable. I would not give up on him as a C.

 

[schenneuf]

Toews would be nothing without Patty Kane (Conn smythe trophy winner). Marner could very well play center, but play winger just like Zetterberg.

Not true. Centers are more impactful than wingers. They have to take faceoffs, always backcheck, support the D, shut down opposing lines including 1C's, etc. There's a reason Toews was better than Crosby in Olympics, and why many consider him better than Crosby in general. Selke-winning 1C's are far, far more valuable than an elite 1W like Kane, Conne Smythe or not.

Also, we don't need a 1C right now when we are so early into our rebuild. Even if Marner becomes a winger there will still be great center man available in the draft next year. I would rather take our so call winger if he's projected to become better players than Hanifin, Strome, Barzal, Zacha.

I'm not suggesting we pass on superior talent; I think there's plenty of talent in this draft, just like 2003 proved to be. What if, due to the insane amount of parity in the league, combined with Babcock, etc, we don't pick this high again for a while? And in a loaded draft no less! 1C's are rarely picked outside the top 5, but 2C's can sometimes be found scattered anywhere, although rarely. #4 in 2015 may be our best chance at getting a 1C for quite a while, and we get to choose from the entire lot minus three players. I think it's narrow-minded to confine your choices considering there are bound to be multiple all-stars selected after number 4 in this draft.

 

[Cor]

You have clearly not watch Nylander very much if you think his game is not suited for center.

He plays the exact same style as a Datsyuk or Giroux. He can steal the puck away from players like it's nothing. Has a very sound defensive side of his game.

Will he? Who knows, but he can definitely play center. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see him make that switch next season, and start playing center in the AHL

 

[Knightnight]

Not true. Centers are more impactful than wingers. They have to take faceoffs, always backcheck, support the D, shut down opposing lines including 1C's, etc. There's a reason Toews was better than Crosby in Olympics, and why many consider him better than Crosby in general. Selke-winning 1C's are far, far more valuable than an elite 1W like Kane, Conne Smythe or not.



I'm not suggesting we pass on superior talent; I think there's plenty of talent in this draft, just like 2003 proved to be. What if, due to the insane amount of parity in the league, combined with Babcock, etc, we don't pick this high again for a while? And in a loaded draft no less! 1C's are rarely picked outside the top 5, but 2C's can sometimes be found scattered anywhere, although rarely. #4 in 2015 may be our best chance at getting a 1C for quite a while, and we get to choose from the entire lot minus three players. I think it's narrow-minded to confine your choices considering there are bound to be multiple all-stars selected after number 4 in this draft.

Can`t give it up eh bud, did you buy that box of Kleenex I said you would need because he isn`t going to the Leafs with there first pick period. I told you to worry about the 7-10 range. Look at Colorado pick and go after him. Your agenda or more your obsession with Marner going ahead of Zacha (which is going to happen) is going to drive you more bonkers than it has. Nice thesis lol, but it does not matter, Zacha is not going 4th. Oh and honestly are you not tired of taking a beating on this subject in every thread.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

There are #1Cs that are mediocre defensively. Sequin is one as is Tavares. Not every centre is Datsyuk. It really depends on the development team of Marner plays centre or not. It is pretty aesthetic decision especially when one of the best two forwards in the game is Marian Hossa.

 

[MJ65]

Look like some one is here with some kind of agenda - hats off to you

Winger or Center - does not matter to me

 

[KGL]

Imo he has the defensive prowess and intelligence to do it. But it will take a tremendous amount of work on his part with a ton of support from babcock and management to develop him as a C. It's doable. I would not give up on him as a C.

Agreed.

I'm not worried about his size (Which is why I'd imagine most think he won't be a centre). Looking at the #1 centres on each NHL team and he's already as tall as some (Johnson, Duchene, Datsyuk, Giroux, Crosby, Little) and not far behind others (Stamkos, RNH, Stepan). As for his weight, that'll come with age.

People who are seriously worried about his size and think that it will hinder him being able to play centre are out to lunch.

 

[TMLegend]

He'll be a winger at the NHL level in all likelihood.

 

[KGL]

He'll be a winger at the NHL level in all likelihood.

Why?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Closed. Marner isn't a Leaf yet and there are multiple threads that involve discussion about him - take it to one of those if you wish.