GDT: Official 2013 Draft Day thread IV: Oilers take Nurse @7. MacT adds all the picks

[Everest]

We still have picks to offer, next years picks.

I was thinking about that yesterday while the "dance" with Holmgren was happening.

It would have been "bold" of Mac-T to gamble with where exactly the '14 pick will end up...top 20 seems a solid bet...but...had he used that pick to land Coburn...I think I would be good with it...and even if PHI ends up getting a top 10 prospect next June...We could swallow that pill, I think.

The only problem is...we tend to rely on our 1rst rounders to hold our entire development network above water. So, history says trading ANY 1rst rounder will mean that draft is, essentially/entirely a wash.

Would Holmgren bite on that?

I have to think he would have to think long & hard about it.

 

[DrDrai]

The Russians have been doing pretty poorly at the WJC as well, I have no clue why we would draft any of them, if say they placed higher than canada in say...the 3 most recent wjc then I might consider drafting a few....

 

[nexttothemoon]

The Russians have been doing pretty poorly at the WJC as well, I have no clue why we would draft any of them, if say they placed higher than canada in say...the 3 most recent wjc then I might consider drafting a few....

I agree, Slovakia hasn't won Gold at the Olympics... ever. Chara should be available for a 7th at most once Boston realizes they are harbouring a player from an also-ran country.

We could probably trade Horcoff to Buffalo for Vanek and get them to throw in a 1st.

 

[Raab]

How many years til Yak can apply for Canadian citizenship? We need to nip this Russian=/=Cup thing in the bud.

Yak's elite we can win with him. I'd take a Malkin, Datsyuk, or Ovechkin on my team any day. My problem is drafting lower Russians when there's no way in hell they'll be top line in Edmonton and very slight chance they'd be 2nd liners. Especially given that Stanley cup champs usually have very few if any Russians. Call me don cherry all you like, but prove to me that taking Russians to play on your 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines and be at minimum your 5th best forward is a good idea.

 

[Raab]

You look at the individual talent, not the country of origin. Pretty simple way to build a team.

Funny you say that when you cheer for Ottawa. They only have one Russian if I recall correctly and he is one of the few with a Stanley Cup Ring.

 

[Everest]

Yak's elite we can win with him. I'd take a Malkin, Datsyuk, or Ovechkin on my team any day. My problem is drafting lower Russians when there's no way in hell they'll be top line in Edmonton and very slight chance they'd be 2nd liners. Especially given that Stanley cup champs usually have very few if any Russians. Call me don cherry all you like, but prove to me that taking Russians to play on your 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines and be at minimum your 5th best forward is a good idea.

A couple posters have already corrected your opinion by pointing out what ACTUALLY happens to Russian-Bred "depth players".

A really current example is Leo Komarov.

 

[Raab]

This holds more legitimacy with Russians because there is a very competitive league in their home country that generally offers more opportunity (role and dollar-wise) at younger ages than the NHL.

The mid-tier and below guys are the ones that are affected the most by this as well. The top ones will have top roles and top dollar regardless of league.

This makes sense, so what good is it to pick Russians who will never come over? I'm not trying to really slag the country, but just based on my observation I felt that it was worth bringing up. With the Russian picks and the Nurse pick I think we'll look back at the 2013 draft as one of the worst in Oiler history. I hope and pray I'm wrong, and people will flame away im sure. But I can't tow the company line on this board that we made out like bandits in this draft.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Funny you say that when you cheer for Ottawa. They only have one Russian if I recall correctly and he is one of the few with a Stanley Cup Ring.

who's that? Gonchar who plays for the Stars now?

I'm not sure what Ottawa has to do with this but oh well. Keep reaching for nonsense.

 

[Raab]

A couple posters have already corrected your opinion by pointing out what ACTUALLY happens to Russian-Bred "depth players".

A really current example is Leo Komarov.

You mean the guy who just bolted back to Russia? Are we trying to be the Maple Leafs or are we trying to build a Championship team?

 

[Sloth Slothersons*]

The Russians have been doing pretty poorly at the WJC as well, I have no clue why we would draft any of them, if say they placed higher than canada in say...the 3 most recent wjc then I might consider drafting a few....

Canada has done worse...

Probably shouldn't have drafted Yakupov. RNH was a mistake too.

 

[Raab]

who's that? Gonchar who plays for the Stars now?

I'm not sure what Ottawa has to do with this but oh well. Keep reaching for nonsense.

They're a team being built to compete, and win a championship. Wont be surprised if they win one in the next few years. And I missed that trade.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Yak's elite we can win with him. I'd take a Malkin, Datsyuk, or Ovechkin on my team any day. My problem is drafting lower Russians when there's no way in hell they'll be top line in Edmonton and very slight chance they'd be 2nd liners. Especially given that Stanley cup champs usually have very few if any Russians. Call me don cherry all you like, but prove to me that taking Russians to play on your 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines and be at minimum your 5th best forward is a good idea.

Stanley Cup Champs have all sorts of nationalities... and there's no way to know at this stage what the Oilers picks from this year (or the last few years) top out as.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Is it that drafting players like Pitlick, Martindale, Hamilton, Moroz etc is better than drafting Russians in those spots because they'll likely run back to the KHL if they get a 2nd/3rd/4th line spot in the NHL?

I say draft the best talent you can, develop them as well as you can and live with the consequences if they want to bolt back to the KHL because they can get a better deal over there.

It's not as if there are never issues with players from other nationalities... see Pronger, Souray, Pitkanen, Visnovsky, Hartikainen, Omark etc.

Every prospect/player is unique and there shouldn't be a blanket statement made about certain nationalities.

Again, pick the best talent they can and hope they develop into roster players. Most players drafted will never get a roster spot regardless of whether they are Canadian, American, Russian, Finnish, Swedish etc.

 

[Everest]

You mean the guy who just bolted back to Russia? Are we trying to be the Maple Leafs or are we trying to build a Championship team?

Oh, wait a second.

I just realized why I don't even want to have this discussion.


I've been to these parties before. They go all night. And there will be NO tin foil left in this house when its all said and done.

Carry on with your bad self.

 

[Njoy Oilers]

How many Russians has there been on the last 4 Stanley cup champs? Why were picking Russians I don't know because you don't win championships with them.

Don that you? Detroit never won anything with those dang Ruskies.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

I'm not going to defend Raab's anti-Russian stance, but I find it relatively rare where a Russian player plays the kind of game/style you normally associate with a good 3rd/4th liner and while there are exceptions you usually want to keep those players at a lower salary limit and when you play hardball with them on salary the odds of the defecting to the KHL is a lot more common than it is for North American players.

 

[Raab]

Stanley Cup Champs have all sorts of nationalities... and there's no way to know at this stage what the Oilers picks from this year (or the last few years) top out as.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Is it that drafting players like Pitlick, Martindale, Hamilton, Moroz etc is better than drafting Russians in those spots because they'll likely run back to the KHL if they get a 2nd/3rd/4th line spot in the NHL?

I say draft the best talent you can, develop them as well as you can and live with the consequences if they want to bolt back to the KHL because they can get a better deal over there.

It's not as if there are never issues with players from other nationalities... see Pronger, Souray, Pitkanen, Visnovsky, Hartikainen, Omark etc.

Every prospect/player is unique and there shouldn't be a blanket statement made about certain nationalities.

Again, pick the best talent they can and hope they develop into roster players. Most players drafted will never get a roster spot regardless of whether they are Canadian, American, Russian, Finnish, Swedish etc.

My main point is that there's not a lot of Russians on teams that have won a cup. I wasn't sure why that was until PavelDatsyuk brought up the part about them being able to sign, which makes sense. So in light of that do you think we made the right choice? What are the chances that the 1st overall pick from the KHL actually comes over to play on our second line for 975K when he'd be getting a lot more to be playing in the KHL. To me it just seems like we threw the picks away.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

My main point is that there's not a lot of Russians on teams that have won a cup. I wasn't sure why that was until PavelDatsyuk brought up the part about them being able to sign, which makes sense. So in light of that do you think we made the right choice? What are the chances that the 1st overall pick from the KHL actually comes over to play on our second line for 975K when he'd be getting a lot more to be playing in the KHL. To me it just seems like we threw the picks away.

It's just another case of mountain out of molehill.

 

[OF17]

My main point is that there's not a lot of Russians on teams that have won a cup. I wasn't sure why that was until PavelDatsyuk brought up the part about them being able to sign, which makes sense. So in light of that do you think we made the right choice? What are the chances that the 1st overall pick from the KHL actually comes over to play on our second line for 975K when he'd be getting a lot more to be playing in the KHL. To me it just seems like we threw the picks away.

Fedorov
Fetisov
Konstantinov
Kozlov
Larionov

You're right. Can't win a cup with Russians.

As for the coming over part, don't you think it's more likely that they come over if they're drafted to a team with people they know on it? Yakimov knows Yakupov, Slepyshev has played with Yakimov, Zharkov tweeted that both Slepyshev and Yakimov were friends of his. Don't you think that it's worth using a 4th rounder on a kid with 1st round talent given you have a better chance of getting him to come over? That's assuming Slepyshev doesn't want to come over in the first place, which is a big assumption.

 

[Everest]

I'm not going to defend Raab's anti-Russian stance, but I find it relatively rare where a Russian player plays the kind of game/style you normally associate with a good 3rd/4th liner and while there are exceptions you usually want to keep those players at a lower salary limit and when you play hardball with them on salary the odds of the defecting to the KHL is a lot more common than it is for North American players.

There is some truth to this...but...there are also a lot of highly overrated/overpaid N.A. and especially Canadian 3rd & 4rth liners.

Maybe no better example(s) I can think of than right here...right meow...

Belanger, Eager, Horcoff, Hordichuk...

I think its true...Russian players don't typically play the "classic" or "idealistic" definition of 3rd and 4rth line style we see here...but...there also needs to be an understanding that a lot of what (some) 3rd and 4rth lines do...is...honestly...the EASIEST stuff to do in the course of a hockey game.

The challenge is when it comes time to make a skill play or make an impact...guys like...say...Belanger...don't have what it takes to execute those plays.

Mac T made a point to talk about how innocuous our depth players have become an I think it was a very valid point.

We need energy/impact from all 4 lines. Brute force can do this...but...Russians are (IMO) the most fundamentally sound players on the hockey planet right meow and when you blend fundamentals with the right amount of passion & confidence...damn straight you can generate HUGE impact from your depth lines.

 

[nexttothemoon]

My main point is that there's not a lot of Russians on teams that have won a cup. I wasn't sure why that was until PavelDatsyuk brought up the part about them being able to sign, which makes sense. So in light of that do you think we made the right choice? What are the chances that the 1st overall pick from the KHL actually comes over to play on our second line for 975K when he'd be getting a lot more to be playing in the KHL. To me it just seems like we threw the picks away.

Well it's true that there is competition from the KHL (that exists for all players and prospects but moreso for Russian prospects I would think)... but saying that it seems that the NHL is still regarded as the #1 league in the world and most players want to play in the league with the highest calibre of players and competition.

Some choose to stay/bolt over there... Radulov/Kuznetsov and many others don't.

I think we'd be lucky if ANY of the draft picks developed to the level of them contributing on the NHL roster... regardless of their nationality.

Would Yakimov/Slepyshev/Zharkov come to the Oilers and play?

I see no reason why not if they wanted to play at the highest level and compete and play with and against the best players in the World.

I don't see the picks as wasted at all. All draft picks past the 1st rounders are longshots (1st rounders are in many cases as well but we're talking about later round picks here right now) ... most bust and a few have mediocre careers at best. A very rare few will go on to be major contributors and become regulars on rosters.

Whether they are actually part of a Stanley Cup or not depends on too many other variables.

In short, yes the Russians picked could never amount to anything but so could any other alternatives picked in those spots (of any other nationality) just like we've seen in the past many, many times.

 

[40oz]

Yak's elite we can win with him. I'd take a Malkin, Datsyuk, or Ovechkin on my team any day. My problem is drafting lower Russians when there's no way in hell they'll be top line in Edmonton and very slight chance they'd be 2nd liners. Especially given that Stanley cup champs usually have very few if any Russians. Call me don cherry all you like, but prove to me that taking Russians to play on your 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines and be at minimum your 5th best forward is a good idea.

Last season there was only 22 Russians in the NHL, these are how they were drafted:
1st round: 12
2nd round: 5
3rd round: 1
5th round: 2
6th round: 2

That it pretty typical, if not skewed a bit to the later rounds, to what you'd see with players from any other country.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Percentages of drafted players from 1982-2000 who made it to the NHL from each round using the current 30 picks per round. All stats and draft results are from http://www.hockeydb.com

                   at least 1 game    at least 50 games    at least 200 games
picks 1-30	  91.6 %                76.1 %	            62.1 %
picks 31-60	  66.7 %	     44.2 %	            28.6 %
picks 61-90	  53.7 %	     35.6 %	            23.3 %
picks 91-120	  38.6 %	     23.2 %	            14.6 %
picks 121-150	  29.6 %	     18.1 %	            11.8 %
picks 151-180	  28.4 %	     16.7 %	            11.8 %
picks 181-210	  22.5 %	     12.1 %	              6.8 %
picks 211-240	  23.0 %	     11.8 %	              7.4 %

source

If you take into the account that the majority of these players are not depth players, it's probably just as safe to pick a Russian. If they don't pan out, and they do leave for the KHL, then you risk not having that player as an AHL callup or whatever. On the flip side you're free of that contract, can sign an AHLer and still keep the rights to a player who could may be a late bloomer.

I won't comment on your argument that teams with Russian players don't win cups.

 

[The Bored Man]

It's just another case of mountain out of molehill.

Worse. The molehill is imaginary. I don't understand how anyone can be stupid enough to buy into those stereotypes.

 

[Everest]

Worse. The molehill is imaginary. I don't understand how anyone can be stupid enough to buy into those stereotypes.

This is a league where Bobby Clarke actually built his legacy with one of the most brutal stick attacks of all time...(On a Russian)...players like Dan Carcillo, Shawn Thornton and Chris Neil are considered "must haves" and Jamal Mayers shooting pucks into the other teams net.....during warm ups...is considered an important contribution to a Stanley Cup.

This is a league where bad hockey players can find ways to fool people. A lot.

Clarify: Bobby Clarke was NOT a "bad" hockey player...just sayin...

The tactics used by 3rd and 4rth line players...for a long time and a long time to come...are not really much to do woth hockey.

International players...have shown they CAN master those tactics, Tikkanen anyone? Maybe Russians, specifically, are less disposed to doing some of these things?

But that's not to say they're not good 3rd and 4rth line players...but...the fact Russian players aren't trained to fight (almost ever) or cycle for the sake of a whistle...does take some of their viability away as a traditional 4rth line plug.

 

[Raab]

Worse. The molehill is imaginary. I don't understand how anyone can be stupid enough to buy into those stereotypes.

Except its a fact, the best example someone can give me is from Detroit before the KHL was even around.

 

[Raab]

This is a league where Bobby Clarke actually built his legacy with one of the most brutal stick attacks of all time...(On a Russian)...players like Dan Carcillo, Shawn Thornton and Chris Neil are considered "must haves" and Jamal Mayers shooting pucks into the other teams net.....during warm ups...is considered an important contribution to a Stanley Cup.

This is a league where bad hockey players can find ways to fool people. A lot.

Clarify: Bobby Clarke was NOT a "bad" hockey player...just sayin...

The tactics used by 3rd and 4rth line players...for a long time and a long time to come...are not really much to do woth hockey.

International players...have shown they CAN master those tactics, Tikkanen anyone? Maybe Russians, specifically, are less disposed to doing some of these things?

But that's not to say they're not good 3rd and 4rth line players...but...the fact Russian players aren't trained to fight (almost ever) or cycle for the sake of a whistle...does take some of their viability away as a traditional 4rth line plug.

That's just it, and for the record I don't mind Russian picks in general. I actually liked the Zharkov pick last year because of his upside, but given the makeup of our team with our 5 best players under the age of 23. Wouldn't it have made sense to go after guys who may be able to become solid 3rd and 4th liners with those later picks? Instead of taking a guy drafted 1st overall and most likely a 3rd line center we won't be able to keep due to finances. You know like how can the KHL let Shepshyev walk after being picked at 1. I just can't ever see it happening.