GDT: Off-Season Thread V: 'So about that defenseman trade' Edition

[Heaton]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2100229

Click to read more...

 

[Chance on Chance]

A big part of the problem is that defense takes much longer to develop. Had they neglected forwards, and the blue line was mostly set, the turnaround could be well on its way by now. But any picks on defense - barring a lottery stud that's ahead of the curve - won't even be hitting the ice for another few years, let alone making an impact.

Rebuilds should start on the back end and at center, then move to wing. Yet another reason to make a trade.

Exactly, take our first pick this year. 3-4 years university then 1-2 year AHL then another 1-2 to become accustomed to the NHL. Were looking 5-7 years before we know if he can help this team

 

[SpookyTsuki]

What's a trade guys plz help

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

If u want to tank you need to trade away vets and heavy contracts for picks and expering contracts.

If u want to rebuild on the fly you need to trade for prime age players(23-28), draft well, trade ufas for more picks and keeo cap flexability

What we're doing is gandcuffing ourselves with role players, demoting youth, making no trades and drafting league average..

 

[Pavels Dog]

Exactly, take our first pick this year. 3-4 years university then 1-2 year AHL then another 1-2 to become accustomed to the NHL. Were looking 5-7 years before we know if he can help this team

That is if he develops very poorly. But yes, rebuilding through the draft takes time.
In the short-term we should be looking at guys like Saarijarvi, Russo, and even Hicketts for help from within. Dekeyser and Marchenko may still have room for improvement and XO/Sproul could take steps.

 

[SirloinUB]

Exactly, take our first pick this year. 3-4 years university then 1-2 year AHL then another 1-2 to become accustomed to the NHL. Were looking 5-7 years before we know if he can help this team

While I do agree that D-men have a longer development curve, I would contend that the top pairing D-men, take much less than 5-7 years.

Generally, if it takes you 5-7 years you just don't have that elite level. I think the late developing First pairing guys are less common than the guys who reach that level in 2-4 years.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If u want to tank you need to trade away vets and heavy contracts for picks and expering contracts.

If u want to rebuild on the fly you need to trade for prime age players(23-28), draft well, trade ufas for more picks and keeo cap flexability

Yep, the time to do a quick rebuild on the fly was 2011-12 when your core was starting hit their prime or were just past their prime. At this point you are handcuffed for the next 5-6 years. So that's a good decade of having no shot at icing a competitive hockey team and no clear path to ending the long slide towards mediocrity where you are probably a wild card team or miss the playoffs.

But hey, at least you can say you didn't do the one proven thing to build a Cup winner in a salary capped league. So there's that I guess.

 

[Run the Jewels]

While I do agree that D-men have a longer development curve, I would contend that the top pairing D-men, take much less than 5-7 years.

Generally, if it takes you 5-7 years you just don't have that elite level. I think the late developing First pairing guys are less common than the guys who reach that level in 2-4 years.

Yep. If you are in a position to draft a Drew Doughty, Erik Karlsson or an Aaron Eckblad you clearly can massively improve your defense in very short order.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yep, the time to do a quick rebuild on the fly was 2011-12 when your core was starting hit their prime or were just past their prime.

Show me the GM/Owner willing to hit the 'tank' button on a team with 2 PPG, elite centers, a good #1 d-man and good #1 goalie as well as the best coach in hockey.
We had a few years where we could have put together a San Jose run if a few pieces had fallen into place.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Holland, I have nothing better to do for 3 months than read sports news so what are you waiting for, I demand that you make a trade immediately so I can read about it and talk about it on the internet!

 

[Run the Jewels]

Show me the GM/Owner willing to hit the 'tank' button on a team with 2 PPG, elite centers, a good #1 d-man and good #1 goalie as well as the best coach in hockey.
We had a few years where we could have put together a San Jose run if a few pieces had fallen into place.

Oh I said rebuild on the fly, not tank. The time to do a rebuild on the fly was 2011-12 when Lidstrom was retiring, Z was clearly fading due to heavy milage, and Mule was clearly not going to have a long career.

The tank part is what you will be forced to do in a few years when it is obvious this team is no longer capable of keeping the playoff streak alive. And it will easily be 10 years from 2011-12 to when you can actually begin a real rebuild because no one is going to want Mule, Z, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, Abby or Helm's contracts.

 

[WingNut]

Holland really dug us a hole with his FA spending. I really dont get the Helm re-signing and now teams KNOW we must get rid of Pulk/Jurco/Sproul/XO/ or risk losing them for nothing.

I really think we will have to give up AA, or Matha to get a solid D. If we could package one of them with Ericsson's contract I am almost willing to do that. I would hate to lose either but we are really in a bind now.

AA, Ericsson, Pulk for Cam Fowler

NyQuist, Jurco, Sproul for Shattenkirk

Lines:

Zets/Larkin/Abby

Tatar/Neilsen/Vanek

Helm/Sheahan/Mantha

Miller/Glendenning/Ott

Defense:

Fowler/Shattenkirk

DD/Green

Marchenko/Kronwall

XO

 

[RedHawkDown]

Holland really dug us a hole with his FA spending. I really dont get the Helm re-signing and now teams KNOW we must get rid of Pulk/Jurco/Sproul/XO/ or risk losing them for nothing.

I really think we will have to give up AA, or Matha to get a solid D. If we could package one of them with Ericsson's contract I am almost willing to do that. I would hate to lose either but we are really in a bind now.

AA, Ericsson, Pulk for Cam Fowler

NyQuist, Jurco, Sproul for Shattenkirk

Lines:

Zets/Larkin/Abby

Tatar/Neilsen/Vanek

Helm/Sheahan/Mantha

Miller/Glendenning/Ott

Defense:

Fowler/Shattenkirk

DD/Green

Marchenko/Kronwall

XO

lol neither team will do those trades. More like Tatar + Pulk for Fowler or Tatar + Sheahan for Shattenkirk

 

[TheOtherOne]

Jimmy + BigE to Arizona for a second rounder

 

[WingNut]

lol neither team will do those trades. More like Tatar + Pulk for Fowler or Tatar + Sheahan for Shattenkirk

You do not think AA has that much value? My point was we are going to have to give up something that nobody wants to give up to get a better Defensmen. I guess maybe a better question would be what do we have to give up to get rid of Ericsson's contract? Maybe another GM values him as much as KH and sees what the rest of the world doesnt?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Oh I said rebuild on the fly, not tank.

..which is what we've been doing. But I assume by 'rebuild on the fly' you mean signing no veterans, trading away players for picks, and getting some top 10 draft picks? So.. totally not tanking, right?

The time to do a rebuild on the fly was 2011-12 when Lidstrom was retiring, Z was clearly fading due to heavy milage, and Mule was clearly not going to have a long career.

Z was clearly fading? He had nearly 70 points that year, dominated the world champs, then posted PPG+ seasons for two years after. Lids was retiring but Kronwall was a legit #1 at that time. And Mule played 77 games in 11-12. 13-14 was when it started looking like his career was not going to be long.

The tank part is what you will be forced to do in a few years when it is obvious this team is no longer capable of keeping the playoff streak alive. And it will easily be 10 years from 2011-12 to when you can actually begin a real rebuild because no one is going to want Mule, Z, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, Abby or Helm's contracts.

If the new core fails to be good enough, then yes we will rebuild. I think Larkin and Mrazek have tons of potential though.

 

[Run the Jewels]

..which is what we've been doing. But I assume by 'rebuild on the fly' you mean signing no veterans, trading away players for picks, and getting some top 10 draft picks? So.. totally not tanking, right?.

Nope, was talking about trading non-core assets like Helm, Howard and Abby. Oh and buying out Mule.

Z was clearly fading? He had nearly 70 points that year, dominated the world champs, then posted PPG+ seasons for two years after. Lids was retiring but Kronwall was a legit #1 at that time. And Mule played 77 games in 11-12. 13-14 was when it started looking like his career was not going to be long.

Z has had chronic back problems ever since Brad Stuart gave him a pretty good cross check back when he was playing with Calgary. Again, not talking about trading or buying out Z or Kronwall.

If the new core fails to be good enough, then yes we will rebuild. I think Larkin and Mrazek have tons of potential though.

Ken Holland said at the end of the year this core has no shot at winning a Cup. He said if you're talking about Stanley Cups you're in the wrong league. So again, we're talking a bare minimumn of 10 years before you even start considering what it takes to build a Stanley Cup winner. And if you guys and Ken Holland are correct that it takes 10 years of tanking to turn it around well guess what? That's a bare minimum of 20 years in the wildreness of never coming close to a Stanley Cup.

We've already had one 42 year drought. At this rate we will be just about halfway to that.

 

[Dead Thing Fan]

Dman trade

Holland really dug us a hole with his FA spending. I really dont get the Helm re-signing and now teams KNOW we must get rid of Pulk/Jurco/Sproul/XO/ or risk losing them for nothing.

I really think we will have to give up AA, or Matha to get a solid D. If we could package one of them with Ericsson's contract I am almost willing to do that. I would hate to lose either but we are really in a bind now.

AA, Ericsson, Pulk for Cam Fowler

NyQuist, Jurco, Sproul for Shattenkirk

Lines:

Zets/Larkin/Abby

Tatar/Neilsen/Vanek

Helm/Sheahan/Mantha

Miller/Glendenning/Ott

Defense:

Fowler/Shattenkirk

DD/Green

Marchenko/Kronwall

XO

Memo to all Wings fans hoping for a Shattenkirk trade: If the Blues trade Shatty to any team other than the Rangers or the Bruins, he will NOT sign an extension and will opt for free agency next summer. The only "asset" I would waste on Shattenkirk would be Ericsson one on one.

The only way I move either Mantha or AA is in a package deal for either Subban or Doughty and that ain't going to happen.

Assets that could be bundled together to acquire someone like Hamonic or Trouba include roster players, prospects and draft picks.

Roster players include:
Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Glendening, Jurco, Pulkkinen(RFA),B. Smith, Ericsson, Ouellet, Marchenko.

Prospects include: Svechnikov, Turgeon, Bertuzzi, Saarjarvi, Cholowski, G. Smith.

Draft picks: 2017 1st(defers to 2018 if pick is top seven), any other '17 pick
2018 picks.

To the Jets or the Islanders:

Nyquist + B.Smith + Saarijarvi + 2017 1st(top 7 protected) + 2017 2nd.

To Detroit:

Hamonic or Trouba.

 

[crashnburnluder]

The guy we should be trying to land is Barrie, Trouba is a shut down first guy, we need PP QB, a offensive. Scoring D man, shutdown guys are easy to get if you are moving big assets to bring a D in, pau more and Fill our D with the best guy available

I. Would move Tatar and goose together to get Barrie

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Pretty sure this is our team. Maybe we sign a reclamation project for a year or something, but by and large. This is what we are entering the season with.

 

[Dead Thing Fan]

The guy we should be trying to land is Barrie, Trouba is a shut down first guy, we need PP QB, a offensive. Scoring D man, shutdown guys are easy to get if you are moving big assets to bring a D in, pau more and Fill our D with the best guy available

I. Would move Tatar and goose together to get Barrie

I too would move both Tats and Nyquist in the same deal.

Trouba has more upside both offensively and defensively than Barrie and he is MUCH bigger.

 

[LionsFan01]

The guy we should be trying to land is Barrie, Trouba is a shut down first guy, we need PP QB, a offensive. Scoring D man, shutdown guys are easy to get if you are moving big assets to bring a D in, pau more and Fill our D with the best guy available

I. Would move Tatar and goose together to get Barrie

Looking at those two options, would much rather have Trouba and start grooming Sproul to run one of our PP units. Roll with Trouba-Marchenko-Sproul down the right side, let Kronwall run the 1st PP unit and give the second to Sproul.

Really don't want to lose Sproul to waivers. We've waited years for the defense to finally start catching up to the offense, and while there's no guarantee that it will continue to improve at the next level to even be good enough for bottom pairing minutes, he's the high upside guy we need to keep around in my opinion.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I too would move both Tats and Nyquist in the same deal.

Trouba has more upside both offensively and defensively than Barrie and he is MUCH bigger.

Barrie is the better offensive player, I don't care if Trouba is hidden behind front line player on his own team. Barrie has 102 points over the last two seasons. He has been a point every other game kind of guy for the last three seasons in the NHL. Kid can flat out score and is one of the absolute best rear-guards in transition hockey on the planet.

I like Trouba a lot, but Barrie looks like he will be a top 10 offensive D-man for the next decade.

 

[DRW204]

I've seen lots of trouba living in Winnipeg he hasnt show he can anchor a top two dmen pairing yet. Byfuglien was the catalyst and carried him last year

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Oh I said rebuild on the fly, not tank. The time to do a rebuild on the fly was 2011-12 when Lidstrom was retiring, Z was clearly fading due to heavy milage, and Mule was clearly not going to have a long career.

The tank part is what you will be forced to do in a few years when it is obvious this team is no longer capable of keeping the playoff streak alive. And it will easily be 10 years from 2011-12 to when you can actually begin a real rebuild because no one is going to want Mule, Z, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, Abby or Helm's contracts.

It's becoming some kind of weird talking point that any sort of rebuilding at all = tanking. If you don't want to keep the streak going, you must want to tank. This is, of course, because the only things worth doing are tanking and making the playoffs, and tanking takes too long, so that's not really worth it either. Thus, the only option is playoffs. Duh!