Advice: Off-Ice Workouts

[Guffaw]

You almost got it right. It takes those things minus hours in the gym. Doing a 20 minute workout each day (20 minute HIIT for instance) will have that effect. You do not need to spend hours in the gym to see muscles you didn't know you had or only saw in magazines. To get muscles very large may take hours in the gym, but to get into great shape and build strength and endurance, it does not.

Agreed. The genetically gifted in the prime of their lives are the minority. For the rest of us over-training is a very real concern. Injuries, illness, and stalled gains. Been there, done that.

 

[PhilMick]

Really? It's not well written and kind of hard to follow, but I think there is some good information in there.

I really had to simplify the training though. It just gets so specific that if you did everything he says, training would be your full time job.

True, I'm a big fan of it, mostly for the aerobic and anaerobic training chapters though. I get my strength education from more strength-centric sources.

Actually I mostly read it for the retro Canucks pics featuring epic high top shoes

 

[OpenIceHit42]

I ride the stationary bike on off days. Didn't have any games this past week due to the holidays so I've been ramping up on the bike. I'd ride at level 4-5 for a good 10min or so to get loose then kick it up a few levels and go hard for about 45-75 seconds, turn the level down for 2 minutes and repeat by ramping up the levels and I'd repeat this for about 45 minutes or so.

 

[newfr4u]

Agreed. The genetically gifted in the prime of their lives are the minority. For the rest of us over-training is a very real concern. Injuries, illness, and stalled gains. Been there, done that.

it's exactly the opposite of what you said. overtraining is concern for a select few, and not a concern for the rest of us. injuries, illness, and stalled gains are not sufficient to qualify as overtrained.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Peter Twist has 2 books for conditioning. One from 1996 and one from 2006 with a DVD.

 

[Guffaw]

it's exactly the opposite of what you said. overtraining is concern for a select few, and not a concern for the rest of us. injuries, illness, and stalled gains are not sufficient to qualify as overtrained.

I could not disagree more with your entire statement.

 

[newfr4u]

I could not disagree more with your entire statement.

then you don't know what overtraining is. start reading and come back if you still have questions.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/overtraining-overreaching-and-all-the-rest-part-1.html

 

[Stickchecked]

then you don't know what overtraining is. start reading and come back if you still have questions.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/overtraining-overreaching-and-all-the-rest-part-1.html

There's no need to be rude...

As for the link you provided, sigh... It's arguing semantics, trying to redefine overtraining to be the most extreme manifestation of it for your "select few". Juxtaposing the need for 6 months rest with being tired for 2 days after is a workout is a pretty sloppy argument.

I don't see the point in dismissing the condition where an athlete digs him/herself into a hole that requires weeks of limited/non-activity in order to recover. It's a legitimate problem, one that many dedicated recreational athletes run into, and it's not like the author doesn't acknowledge that it happens. He just doesn't like what it's called. Who cares what it is called? Why try to redefine a commonly used concept? Why not call it "chronic overtraining"? Sure seems to be more accurate when describing someone who needs 6 months of time off to dig their body out of the hole it's in.

He basically acknowledges the semantic nature of his argument:

But if you recover in 2 weeks, you weren’t overtrained, you were simply overreached. Think of it as overtraining light; the same types of overload that generate overreaching in the short-term eventually lead to true overtraining when continued in the long-term.

See, it's "overreaching" or "overtraining light" vs "overtraining heavy" or "chronic overtraining". Why not stick with the definition that everyone else is used to?

The author finally confesses that there is no point to his point, emphasis mine:

That is, if it took you 2-3 weeks to return to the same or higher fitness level, you were only overreached. If it took you longer than that, you were overtrained. Interesting but hardly useful when you’re the one who can’t perform anywhere close to your previous bests and don’t know how long it will take you to get back to form.

I couldn't agree more. This is what Guffaw was referring to, a condition that I have suffered numerous times, and a state that I'm sure many serious recreational athletes care about.

 

[sanityplease]

There's no need to be rude...

As for the link you provided, sigh... It's arguing semantics, trying to redefine overtraining to be the most extreme manifestation of it for your "select few". Juxtaposing the need for 6 months rest with being tired for 2 days after is a workout is a pretty sloppy argument.

I don't see the point in dismissing the condition where an athlete digs him/herself into a hole that requires weeks of limited/non-activity in order to recover. It's a legitimate problem, one that many dedicated recreational athletes run into, and it's not like the author doesn't acknowledge that it happens. He just doesn't like what it's called. Who cares what it is called? Why try to redefine a commonly used concept? Why not call it "chronic overtraining"? Sure seems to be more accurate when describing someone who needs 6 months of time off to dig their body out of the hole it's in.

He basically acknowledges the semantic nature of his argument:



See, it's "overreaching" or "overtraining light" vs "overtraining heavy" or "chronic overtraining". Why not stick with the definition that everyone else is used to?

The author finally confesses that there is no point to his point, emphasis mine:



I couldn't agree more. This is what Guffaw was referring to, a condition that I have suffered numerous times, and a state that I'm sure many serious recreational athletes care about.

Yup.

We should just use the definition of 'overtraining' that %99.999999999 of the medical/professional/fitness world uses.

Overtraining = Exerting your body beyond the limits of your rate of recovery for a certain period of time.

 

[newfr4u]

ok, let's examine, Guffaw said that for the non-genetically gifted doing 20-min HIIT workouts is plenty and doing more leads to overtraining. putting semantics of overtraining aside, 1) it's not enough, 2) in itself, it does not lead to overtraining, 3) it certainly has nothing to do with not being genetically gifted, and 4) has nothing to do with injury, illness, or stalled gains. it's normal. being tired after workouts and needing recovery periods is completely expected to increase performance. even overreaching is fine. you certainly would welcome a player on your team that went above and beyond his normal workloads during games. he might need an extra rest day. no big deal. same with stalling. stalling is normal. it may be a consequence of insufficient calories, technique, programming, increased strength levels, or a combination of all those things. nothing to do with actual overtraining.

now for overreaching/overtraining. read it a bit more carefully. there are biological factors that dictate whether you can fully recover after your workout. the time periods are important because recovering fully from overreaching (a matter of days) is hundreds of times easier than recovering fully from overtraining (a matter of months). it is also important to note how those are different from actual injury and illness.

and finally, if being told you are wrong is considered rude, get a thicker skin. this being a hockey board, and the internet, i'd think you'd be used to much worse.

 

[newfr4u]

Yup.

We should just use the definition of 'overtraining' that %99.999999999 of the medical/professional/fitness world uses.

Overtraining = Exerting your body beyond the limits of your rate of recovery for a certain period of time.

what you call "medical/professional/fitness world" constitutes this board, which is actually pretty damn far from the actual medical/professional/fitness world. because i just gave you a well-cited fitness resource that you chose to ignore.

 

[Stickchecked]

ok, let's examine, Guffaw said that for the non-genetically gifted doing 20-min HIIT workouts is plenty and doing more leads to overtraining. putting semantics of overtraining aside, 1) it's not enough, 2) in itself, it does not lead to overtraining, 3) it certainly has nothing to do with not being genetically gifted, and 4) has nothing to do with injury, illness, or stalled gains. it's normal. being tired after workouts and needing recovery periods is completely expected to increase performance. even overreaching is fine. you certainly would welcome a player on your team that went above and beyond his normal workloads during games. he might need an extra rest day. no big deal. same with stalling. stalling is normal. it may be a consequence of insufficient calories, technique, programming, increased strength levels, or a combination of all those things. nothing to do with actual overtraining.

now for overreaching/overtraining. read it a bit more carefully. there are biological factors that dictate whether you can fully recover after your workout. the time periods are important because recovering fully from overreaching (a matter of days) is hundreds of times easier than recovering fully from overtraining (a matter of months). it is also important to note how those are different from actual injury and illness.

and finally, if being told you are wrong is considered rude, get a thicker skin. this being a hockey board, and the internet, i'd think you'd be used to much worse.

The issue is that people are sharing information on this thread/forum for other people's benefit and not just trying to point out how other people are wrong. Which is basically all you've done.

As far as what you wrote above, I'm still confused by what your point is. I've read it three times and can't figure out what you're trying to convey. Other than you know a lot of "stuff".

Data <> Information

 

[sanityplease]

what you call "medical/professional/fitness world" constitutes this board, which is actually pretty damn far from the actual medical/professional/fitness world. because i just gave you a well-cited fitness resource that you chose to ignore.

I read the article, it's really not that complicated. 'Overtraining' has a simple definition, which is often sub-categorized into different levels, I've always known it as STO & LTO. But it doesn't matter, symantics.

The only people who make a big deal out of it are know-it-all bloggers & internet posters.

 

[newfr4u]

Hahaha. Well, it's certainly good to know that an advice thread is not subject to that advice being actually correct.

Even if you somehow think that 2-3 day layoff is only semantically different from 2-3 month layoff, it still doesn't equate to injury, illness, and stalling, all of which necessitate different advice. And certainly doesn't mean you should only do 20-mins intervals every day.

 

[Stickchecked]

Hahaha. Well, it's certainly good to know that an advice thread is not subject to that advice being actually correct.

Even if you somehow think that 2-3 day layoff is only semantically different from 2-3 month layoff, it still doesn't equate to injury, illness, and stalling, all of which necessitate different advice. And certainly doesn't mean you should only do 20-mins intervals every day.

More strawmen. No one tried to equate the two types of layoffs and no one argued for doing only 20min HIIT per day. The HIIT argument had to do with the amount of time wasted in a gym. The implication isn't that going to a gym is wasteful, it is that one should learn how to spend gym time effectively, and that in the face of wasteful effort in the gym, one would be better served with 20 mins of HIIT.

The issue isn't between being correct or incorrect. It's about being useful.

 

[Thesensation19*]

Weight Lift- General answer I am sure. I do not enter the gym with much of a plan, just try to enjoy it. I focus on legs and core but try to hit as much as I can. I go about 3-4x a week, I do not look to get bigger but just stronger and more fit. Naturally by working out I will grow but its more important to me to just strengthen your body. I work on Work and Force in the gym. Maximize the work to maximize the force I produce and over time and repetition I will be a better athlete. I make sure I keep my muscles exploding and not just pushing something at a slow pace. I want the muscles to have speed to it, not jus size.

Cardio- Underestimated by most athletes, especially amateur athletes. I am not a fan of jogging or running but I do it. I go for about 2-4 miles 2x a week. I try to mix in sprints and stairs and some biking in that weekly routine. Bikes, stairs and sprints as well as others as other work outs are extremely different forms of stamina and work on different parts of the body.

Natural and Plyometrics-
If you dont like weights, or want to add in more of a work out. The best work out there is the old natural way. Push ups, pull ups, crunches, jumps, climbing, lunges/squats without weights and so on. I mix it up and just add in the best work outs ever created. People dont like doing it because it involves more body parts at one time but I love it. I try to get in around 500 pushups a week and 1000 squats.

Yoga/Meditation/Stretching
Not only do I take my time in stretching and warming up properly before and after work outs and sports but I make sure I add in small stretch sessions throughout each day. Dynamic and Static. I try to add to add real meditating and yoga sessions through out the weak. If my body needs a rest, Ill try to give it a day of proper stretching and relaxation. But truly must listen to my body not just say eh nah. Ill try to stay active like walking and light biking too.

Other sports-
Russians will live by this but its truly the best. Who do you think were the best athletes 30-70 years ago? Ones who played multiple sports and athletics. Soccer not only works on different crucial body parts like legs and back but helps me with leg coordination and cardio. Basketball, baseball, Football and others are all different positive sports. Gretzky excelled at Lax, Crosby baseball.

Eat well, look at blood tyypes and how thy affect your diet, sleep well.

 

[newfr4u]

More strawmen. No one tried to equate the two types of layoffs and no one argued for doing only 20min HIIT per day. The HIIT argument had to do with the amount of time wasted in a gym. The implication isn't that going to a gym is wasteful, it is that one should learn how to spend gym time effectively, and that in the face of wasteful effort in the gym, one would be better served with 20 mins of HIIT.

The issue isn't between being correct or incorrect. It's about being useful.

I think I see what the problem is. You didn't actually read the posts with which I disagreed, but decided that you should jump in because you thought someone was rude.

 

[Guffaw]

then you don't know what overtraining is. start reading and come back if you still have questions.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/overtraining-overreaching-and-all-the-rest-part-1.html

Says you. I think I ran into this before with you. I have an exercise physiology degree. I've been training myself and others for 20 yrs. You aren't the be all end all of training advice on this forum sir.

With so much variation in age, genetics, lifestyle, diet, goals, etc., it's really the wrong subject to adopt a know it all mentality. It points to feeding your own ego vs helping people.

 

[newfr4u]

Are you ignoring what I linked, or simply saying that I can't google whatever depth of knowledge that your exercise physiology degree holds?

 

[Stickchecked]

With so much variation in age, genetics, lifestyle, diet, goals, etc., it's really the wrong subject to adopt a know it all mentality.

Exactly

 

[Soedy]

I stopped jogging a few weeks ago since I start to have knee problems after each hockey practice. As a goalie I don't need that much breath at all, more muscles.

So I do this 2-4 time a week (depending on wether we have a game on the weekend):

7-8 stints with this routine:

two dumbbells with 22lbs each. One in each hand pull each up 20 times.
30 crunches
hold the two dumbbells in front in the height of my shoulders and do 20 butterfly moves in mid air
20 squats

It's a pretty decent workout in addition to the two hours ice time a week.

 

[Jarick]

Seems like I'm finally over the hump in getting sore hamstrings from kettlebell work, so I can ramp it up.

 

[newfr4u]

With so much variation in age, genetics, lifestyle, diet, goals, etc., it's really the wrong subject to adopt a know it all mentality. It points to feeding your own ego vs helping people.

wow, missed this paragraph by you yesterday. i think if i was trying to feed my ego, i'd tell everyone how many degrees i had and how long i've trained people, so that my posts wouldn't be critiqued. i'd consider correcting an error rather helpful.

 

[TKSPT]

Off-season conditioning

Hey guys,

I'm interested in hearing what you guys do for off-season training. I was a professional hockey player until last season and now I'm a full-time strength and conditioning coach.

I'm always interested in hearing how players prepare. There seems to be more information out there about this topic but that doesn't necessarily make it easy to design a program. Let me know your guys thoughts.

 

[durrrr]

Bit of a gym rat myself... I would call myself an intermediate bodybuilder and am considering competing in the future. My workout regimen is something I created myself through experimentation and reading different things. It is as follows:

Monday:
5-3-1 squats and deadlifts, looking to do as much weight as possible for those reps
Traps
20 minutes HIIT on bike

Tuesday:
Back and Abs
Play hockey every Tuesday night

Wednesday:
Chest
20 minutes HIIT on bike

Thursday:
Squats (4 sets in 8-10 range)
Legs (leg press, lunges, etc.)
Abs

Friday:
Shoulders
20 minutes HIIT on bike

Saturday:
Bis/Tris
Plyo (including squats in the 15-20 rep range)
Abs

Sunday:
Rest or Cardio
-------------------------------
I also stretch after most workouts and play hockey an additional 1 night a week.

I realize that this is a lot, but through trial and error I have found that this is what works for me. I just started the squatting 3 times a week thing, and so far results have been GREAT. I'm already squatting a lot more weight and notice a lot more explosiveness and power on the ice. I've been told that many natural bodybuilders squat 3 times per week and I refuse to juice so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Note: I listen to my body. If I feel fatigued I will take it easy in the gym. However, I've been lifting long enough that this is rare... I almost always have lots of energy for my workouts and for hockey as well.