Obscure hockey facts/stats (Part 2)

[The Panther]

This season, there are no players in the top 20 in scoring in their age 22 seasons or younger. In 82-83, 11 of the top 20 scorers were age-22 or younger.

This season, there are 10 players in the top 50 in scoring that are age-31 or older. In 81-82, there were none.

My Best-Carey

I was just noticing this exact thing (more or less) today, as I was glancing at the scoring leaders. It's a bit odd.

It's like, there are unusually high-scoring leading players this season... but they're not young.

By the way, if Nylander can get 4 points in 4 games, there will be TEN 100-point scorers this season.

There are already sixteen (!) 40-goal scorers, and there may be eighteen by season's end. Remember when Iginla, Kovalchuk, and Nash led the NHL with 41 goals each? (Neither do I, as I've wiped that boring-ass era from my memory.)

There are also likely to be two 100-assist players this season, which has only happened once before in history -- in 1988-89.

 

[The Panther]

This is just a factoid, not a stat, but:

-- In Dave Andreychuk's first NHL season, he faced off against Wayne Cashman (first NHL game in "original six" era)
-- In Dave Andreychuk's final NHL season, he faced off against Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin (still active in 2024)

 

[MadLuke]

In the playoff Pacioretty score 5 or 0 goals, nothing else can be in between, below or higher, would he go out in 4 or reach the conference final.

 

[MS]

This season, there are no players in the top 20 in scoring in their age 22 seasons or younger. In 82-83, 11 of the top 20 scorers were age-22 or younger.

This season, there are 10 players in the top 50 in scoring that are age-31 or older. In 81-82, there were none.

My Best-Carey

The 1980s, and in particular the first half of the 1980s, were the craziest time in NHL history in terms of the sport making quantum leaps forward in terms of quality of play.

You had a massive talent boom of players born in the early 1960s who grew up in the TV/hockey schools era, influx of US/Euro talent, and the short shift revolution.

Players born between about 1950 and 1956 in particular had incredibly short careers and were basically all finished by age 30 or 31 as the game left them behind. Only a couple HHOF-types were productive and effective well into their 30s (Perreault, Howe).

A guy like Guy Chouinard was a superstar at age 22, a PP specialist/ES liability by 25, and played his last game at age 27.

The 1984-85 Flyers went to the Stanley Cup Finals with 1 regular skater over the age of 26 (Howe, aged 29) and half their team aged 21 or younger.

I’ve said this a bunch of times here – a game from 1980 doesn’t look that hugely different from a game from 1970 and a game from 2000 doesn’t look hugely different from a game from 1990 but games from 1980 vs. 1990 are on a different planet.

 

[frisco]

The 1980s, and in particular the first half of the 1980s, were the craziest time in NHL history in terms of the sport making quantum leaps forward in terms of quality of play.

You had a massive talent boom of players born in the early 1960s who grew up in the TV/hockey schools era, influx of US/Euro talent, and the short shift revolution.

Players born between about 1950 and 1956 in particular had incredibly short careers and were basically all finished by age 30 or 31 as the game left them behind. Only a couple HHOF-types were productive and effective well into their 30s (Perreault, Howe).

My own speculation would be that hockey is a fast-twitch, young man's game. A hockey player probably peaks physically at 23-24. However, older players have more tools at their disposal (training, diet, etc.,) to keep them "younger" for a longer period of time than they did in the past.

Another factor may be that team's obviously seem way more concerned with defense and very nuanced, complex systems play than the 80's. Older players tend to have a better grasp of this concept and strategy. It seemed more in the 80's, if a player was good offensively, they would rush him to the show and just let him concentrate on scoring. Not so these days.

I guess a lot of factors in play here.

My Best-Carey

 

[seventieslord]

In the playoff Pacioretty score 5 or 0 goals, nothing else can be in between, below or higher, would he out in 4 or reach the conference final.

Matt Martin has scored exactly 14 points in a regular season 5 times. I wonder if that is a record for the most times a certain point total has been scored by one player. I'm sure there are a few tweeners that put up zero 5-7 times, but a total as high as 14 points, five times or more? I doubt it.

 

[The Panther]

The 1980s, and in particular the first half of the 1980s, were the craziest time in NHL history in terms of the sport making quantum leaps forward in terms of quality of play.

You had a massive talent boom of players born in the early 1960s who grew up in the TV/hockey schools era, influx of US/Euro talent, and the short shift revolution.

Players born between about 1950 and 1956 in particular had incredibly short careers and were basically all finished by age 30 or 31 as the game left them behind. Only a couple HHOF-types were productive and effective well into their 30s (Perreault, Howe).

A guy like Guy Chouinard was a superstar at age 22, a PP specialist/ES liability by 25, and played his last game at age 27.

The 1984-85 Flyers went to the Stanley Cup Finals with 1 regular skater over the age of 26 (Howe, aged 29) and half their team aged 21 or younger.

I’ve said this a bunch of times here – a game from 1980 doesn’t look that hugely different from a game from 1970 and a game from 2000 doesn’t look hugely different from a game from 1990 but games from 1980 vs. 1990 are on a different planet.

I completely agree with you.

Part of my perspective on this is that I started watching NHL (regularly) during 1986-87, which was lower-scoring than all previous 80s' seasons and had some of the highest parity in NHL history. Even as a little kid, when I'd see clips from 1979-80 or 1981 or whatever, it looked like a totally different era.

You could put this in good team vs. bad team extremes by watching, say, Vancouver vs. Colorado in 1981 or something, and then watching one of the Calgary vs. Montreal 1989 Finals' games. It's two entirely different leagues in terms of level of play.

To a lesser extreme, it also applies across the board, even with teams of relatively equal strength per era. And 1981 and 1989 are really two very different eras.

 

[The Panther]

My own speculation would be that hockey is a fast-twitch, young man's game. A hockey player probably peaks physically at 23-24. However, older players have more tools at their disposal (training, diet, etc.,) to keep them "younger" for a longer period of time than they did in the past.

Of course, like a lot of things (rock'n'roll, sex), hockey is primarily a young man's game. But how much very-young players are used depends a lot on era.

The period roughly 1980 to 1985 was unique, I think, in how much coaches / teams utilized very young players for all roles. This was due to a few factors:
-- Surplus of talent (as @MS discussed, above), so lots of young talent available
-- Mid-1950s'-born guys aging poorly (as @MS also discussed)
-- The 1979 entry draft allowing 18-year olds to enter the NHL
-- The 1980 Olympics showing how college kids could beat the best teams
-- The Gretzky-Oilers building a team around kids and dominating scoring

One inevitable result of allowing so many 18-20 year olds into line-ups is... lack of defense. Young players just don't defend as well.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Matt Martin has scored exactly 14 points in a regular season 5 times. I wonder if that is a record for the most times a certain point total has been scored by one player. I'm sure there are a few tweeners that put up zero 5-7 times, but a total as high as 14 points, five times or more? I doubt it.

I took a look and (for seasons of 10+ points), Matt Martin's 5 instances appears to be the record.

I found these instances of a player scoring the same amount of points (min 30) 4 times:

• Todd Krygier - 30 points (1990, 1991, 1992, 1994)
• Bob Dailey - 39 points (1976, 1977, 1979, 1980)
• Jeff Skinner - 63 points (2011, 2017, 2019, 2022)

Ron Stewart scored exactly 14 goals seven times (1954, 1955, 1960, 1964, 1967, 1968, 1970)

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Up until today, Phil Esposito has ranked in the top ten in scoring in NHL history for more than 50 years (since January 4th, 1974). Sidney Crosby kicked him out of the top ten tonight.

 

[seventieslord]

Up until today, Phil Esposito has ranked in the top ten in scoring in NHL history for more than 50 years (since January 4th, 1974). Sidney Crosby kicked him out of the top ten tonight.

Who's been top-10 in all-time scoring for the longest? Obviously Gordie (~70 years), but then who?

For Gretzky it must be about 39 years and counting. For Dionne, about 42. Messier, Francis, Yzerman, Lemieux haven't hit 30 years yet.

Mikita spent about 39 years in the top-10. Maurice Richard managed about 22 seasons. Beliveau made it 23.

So I think the answers are, as of now:

Howe (70+)
Esposito (50)
Dionne (42+)
Gretzky (39+)
Mikita (39)

no idea who'd be next.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Morenz hit 25 years.

 

[The Panther]

Ron Stewart scored exactly 14 goals seven times (1954, 1955, 1960, 1964, 1967, 1968, 1970)

Let's hope he didn't have an annual 15-goal performance bonus...

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Alex Delvecchio entered the top ten at some point in 1962-63. I never would have guessed, but he was still there as of the end of 1992-93. 30 years.

Johnny Bucyk entered the top ten during 1970-71, and Lemieux kicked him out just before the end of the 1995-96 season. 25 years.

 

[overpass]

Nels Stewart was top 10 in goals from sometime in the 1929-30 season until 1967-68. Almost 40 years.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This season, there are no players in the top 20 in scoring in their age 22 seasons or younger. In 82-83, 11 of the top 20 scorers were age-22 or younger.

This season, there are 10 players in the top 50 in scoring that are age-31 or older. In 81-82, there were none.

My Best-Carey

Interesting that older players are hanging on again in this league of bionic superheroes.

 

[MadLuke]

Interesting that older players are hanging on again in this league of bionic superheroes.

Pushing a certain logic of some to the max, have we learned that Pavelski was better than almost anyone outside Lemieux-Gretzky that turned pro before 1990 ? He just hided it really well in his 20s.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Edit: Okay, this should be everyone since the 1967 expansion

Durations I could find of 25+ years

Gordie Howe entered the top 10 on March 18th, 1954. He is still there.
Phil Esposito entered the top 10 on January 5, 1974. He left on April 11, 2024 (Crosby)
Marcel Dionne entered the top 10 on November 25, 1981. He is still there.
Wayne Gretzky entered the top 10 on January 8, 1986. He is still there.
Stan Mikita entered the top 10 on February 4, 1970. He left on April 17, 1999 (Bourque)
Mark Messier entered the top 10 on January 31, 1994. He is still there.
Mario Lemieux entered the top 10 on April 14, 1996. He is still there.
Ron Francis entered the top 10 on February 25, 1998. He is still there.
Steve Yzerman entered the top 10 on November 11, 1998. He is still there.
Alex Delvecchio entered the top 10 on November 18, 1962. He left on January 31, 1994 (Messier)
Johnny Bucyk entered the top 10 on February 11, 1971. He left on April 14, 1996 (Lemieux)
Howie Morenz entered the top 10 on February 7, 1928. He left on February 5, 1952 (Clapper)

Some others
Bryan Trottier entered the top 10 on January 8, 1988. He left on November 11, 1998 (Yzerman)
Paul Coffey entered the top 10 on April 19, 1995. He left on January 1, 2007 (Sakic)
Ray Bourque entered the top 10 on April 17, 1999. He left on February 19, 2008 (Jagr)
Jean Ratelle entered the top 10 on January 26, 1978. He left on December 4, 1988 (Lafleur)
Guy Lafleur entered the top 10 on April 3, 1983. He left on January 8, 1988. He rejoined on December 4, 1988. He left on February 29, 1996 (Hawerchuk)
Gilbert Perreault entered the top 10 on February 3, 1985. He left on April 19, 1995 (Coffey).
Dale Hawerchuk entered the top 10 on February 29, 1996. He left on February 25, 1998 (Francis)
Norm Ullman entered the top 10 on October 27, 1966. He left on January 11, 1967 (Hull). He rejoined on November 25, 1967. He left on January 8, 1986 (Gretzky).
Jean Beliveau entered the top 10 on December 4, 1960. He left on February 3, 1985 (Perreault).
Bobby Hull entered the top 10 on March 12, 1966. He left on October 27, 1966 (Ullman). He rejoined on January 11, 1967. He left on April 3, 1983 (Lafleur).
Frank Mahovlich entered the top 10 on October 21, 1972. He left on November 25, 1981 (Dionne).
Henri Richard entered the top 10 on November 20, 1965. He left on November 25, 1967 (Ullman). He rejoined on January 31, 1970. He left on October 21, 1972 (Mahovlich). He rejoined on February 16, 1973. He left on January 26, 1978 (Ratelle)
Maurice Richard entered the top 10 on February 22, 1951. He left on February 16, 1973 (H. Richard)
Ted Lindsay entered the top 10 on January 13, 1954. He left on February 11, 1971 (Bucyk)
Bernie Geoffrion entered the top 10 on October 29, 1960. He left on January 31, 1970 (H. Richard)
Red Kelly entered the top 10 on February 23, 1961. He left on February 4, 1970 (Mikita)
Andy Bathgate entered the top 10 on January 13, 1962. He left on January 5, 1974 (Esposito)

So it works out to

1. Gordie Howe - 25,594 days (70 years)
2. Phil Esposito - 18,359 days (50 years)
3. Marcel Dionne - 15,480 days (42 years)
4. Wayne Gretzky - 13,975 days (38 years)
5. Alex Delvecchio - 11,397 days (31 years)
6. Mark Messier - 11,030 days (30 years)
7. Stan Mikita - 10,694 days (29 years)
8. Mario Lemieux - 10,226 days (27 years)
9. Ron Francis - 9,544 days (26 years)
10. Steve Yzerman - 9,285 days (25 years)
11. Johnny Bucyk - 9,194 days (25 years)
12. John Beliveau - 8,827 (24 years)
13. Howie Morenz - 8,764 days (23 years)
14. M. Richard - 8,030 (21 years)
15. Norm Ullman - 6,696 days (18 years)
16. Joe Sakic - 6,312 days (17 years)
17. Bobby Hull - 6,155 days (16 years)
18. Jaromir Jagr - 5,898 days (16 years)
19. Ted Lindsay - 5,862 days (16 years)
20. Guy Lafleur - 4,386 days between the two times (12 years)
21. Andy Bathgate - 4,375 days (11 years)
22. Paul Coffey - 4,275 days (11 years)
23. Jean Ratelle - 3,966 days (10 years)
24. Bryan Trottier - 3,960 days (10 years)
25. Gilbert Perreault - 3,728 days (10 years)
26. Henri Richard - 3,534 days (9 years)
27. Bernie Geoffrion - 3,381 days (9 years)
28. Frank Mahovlich - 3,322 (9 years)
29. Red Kelly - 3,268 days (8 years)
30. Ray Bourque - 3,230 days (8 years)
31. Dale Hawerchuk - 728 days (1 year)
32. Sidney Crosby - 2 days


Sakic has a chance of getting ousted by Ovechkin. It would happen some time early in the 25-26 season when Ovechkin is 40. Jagr will hold on a top 10 spot forever.

For active players, outside Ovechkin and McDavid it'll be hard to see anyone breaking in. Sakic's 1641 points or Lemieux’s 1723 points will be the 10th spot for years. Kucherov is almost 31 and is just halfway there.

It gets harder and harder to break in.

That Howe has held a spot for 70 years is mind blowing.

 

[frisco]

That Howe has held a spot for 70 years is mind blowing.

Leading active scorer in 1959-60: Gordie Howe.

Leading active scorer in 1979-80: Gordie Howe.

My Best-Carey

 

[The Panther]

Howie Morenz entered the top 10 on February 7, 1928.

Gordie Howe entered the top 10 on March 18th, 1954. He is still there.

Wayne Gretzky entered the top 10 on January 8, 1986. He is still there.

This means Howie Morenz was only 25 years old when he entered the top 10. Of course, he was working against slightly less than ten years of NHL history.

Gordie Howe was still only 25 (also) when he entered the top 10, working against almost 37 years of NHL history. That's pretty impressive.

Unbelievably, Wayne Gretzky was only 24 years old when he entered the top 10, working against almost 69 years of NHL history.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The ages of the above guys when they entered the top 10 in scoring.

Gretzky - 9,114 days (24 years 11 months)
Morenz - 9,271 (25 years 4 months)
Howe - 9,484 days (25 years 11 months)
Hull - 9,931 days (27 years 2 months)
Lindsay - 10,397 days (28 years 5 months)
Beliveau - 10,689 days (29 years 3 months)
Bathgate - 10,731 days (29 years 4 months)
M. Richard - 10,795 days (29 years 6 months)
Geoffrion - 10,849 days (29 years 8 months)
Mikita - 10,853 days (29 years 8 months)
H. Richard - 10,858 days (29 years 8 months)
Dionne - 11,073 days (30 years 3 months)
Lemieux - 11,150 days (30 years 6 months)
Delvecchio - 11,308 days (30 years 11 months)
Trottier - 11,498 days (31 years 5 months)
Lafleur - 11,519 days (31 years 6 months)
Esposito - 11,643 days (31 years 10 months)
Ullman - 11,658 days (31 years 11 months)
Hawerchuk - 12,020 days (32 years 10 months)
Messier - 12,067 days (33 years)
Yzerman - 12,240 days (33 years 6 months)
Kelly - 12,284 days (33 years 7 months)
Coffey - 12,376 days (33 years 10 months)
Perreault - 12,502 days (34 years 2 months)
Mahovlich - 12,704 days (34 years 9 months)2
Francis - 12,781 days (34 years 11 months)
Jagr - 13,154 days (36 years)
Crosby - 13,398 days (36 years 8 months)
Bucyk - 13,425 days (36 years 9 months)
Ratelle - 13,630 days (37 years 3 months)
Sakic - 13,693 days (37 years 5 months)
Bourque - 13,989 days (38 years 3 months)


I haven't gone through everyone, because it's just too much time. But if Ovechkin joins he would be the oldest player to join.

Okay so it's everyone post expansion now.

 

[The Pale King]

Matt Martin has scored exactly 14 points in a regular season 5 times. I wonder if that is a record for the most times a certain point total has been scored by one player. I'm sure there are a few tweeners that put up zero 5-7 times, but a total as high as 14 points, five times or more? I doubt it.

I noticed the other day Daryl Evans finished his career with four straight 1 point seasons, which doesn't exactly match your point, but it seemed odd.

 

[MadLuke]

Gordie Howe was still only 25 (also) when he entered the top 10, working against almost 37 years of NHL history. That's pretty impressive.

Him and Gretzky are the only 2 that stand out but Howe at least The league went from 50 to 60 games during his rookie season and to 70 his 21 years old season, so it would make sense for people to be able to enter the TOp 10 quickly in that regard, some of the 20s were crazy high scoring but 23-24 until the ww2 years were really low and 48 games.

when Gretzky arrive the nhl had 70 games season since 1950, 78 since 1971

 

[kaiser matias]

Durations I could find of 25+ years

Gordie Howe entered the top 10 on March 18th, 1954. He is still there.
Phil Esposito entered the top 10 on January 5, 1974. He left on April 11, 2024 (Crosby)
Marcel Dionne entered the top 10 on November 25, 1981. He is still there.
Wayne Gretzky entered the top 10 on January 8, 1986. He is still there.
Stan Mikita entered the top 10 on February 4, 1970. He left on April 17, 1999 (Bourque)
Mark Messier entered the top 10 on January 31, 1994. He is still there.
Mario Lemieux entered the top 10 on April 14, 1996. He is still there.
Ron Francis entered the top 10 on February 25, 1998. He is still there.
Steve Yzerman entered the top 10 on November 11, 1998. He is still there.
Alex Delvecchio entered the top 10 on November 18, 1962. He left on January 31, 1994 (Messier)
Johnny Bucyk entered the top 10 on February 11, 1972. He left on April 14, 1996 (Lemieux)
Howie Morenz entered the top 10 on February 7, 1928. He left on February 5, 1952 (Clapper)

So it works out to


1. Gordie Howe - 25,594 days (70 years)
2. Phil Esposito - 18,359 days (50 years)
3. Marcel Dionne - 15,480 days (42 years)
4. Wayne Gretzky - 13,975 days (38 years)
5. Alex Delvecchio - 11,397 days (31 years)
6. Mark Messier - 11,030 days (30 years)
7. Stan Mikita - 10,694 days (29 years)
8. Mario Lemieux - 10,226 days (27 years)
9. Ron Francis - 9,544 days (26 years)
10. Steve Yzerman - 9,285 days (25 years)
11. Johnny Bucyk - 8,829 days (24 years)
12. Howie Morenz - 8,764 days (23 years)


Other guys that will likely join one day are Sakic and Jagr. Sakic joined the top 10 on January 1, 2007 and Jagr joined the top 10 on February 19, 2008.

Sakic has a chance of getting ousted by Ovechkin. It would happen some time early in the 25-26 season when Ovechkin is 40. Jagr will hold on a top 10 spot forever.

For active players, outside Ovechkin and McDavid it'll be hard to see anyone breaking in. Sakic's 1641 points or Lemieux’s 1723 points will be the 10th spot for years. Kucherov is almost 31 and is just halfway there.

It gets harder and harder to break in.

That Howe has held a spot for 70 years is mind blowing.

Wild to think that when Howe entered the top 10 all-time, he still had another 17 years left to play in the NHL the first time, and would still be playing hockey 26 years later.

 

[VanIslander]

Bobby Orr is still alive.