Oates vs. Shanahan
- Thread starter Big Phil
- Start date
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
You're asking multiple questions in the same poll. 
I don't see how anyone could argue against Oates having the better prime.
But I could see Shanny surpassing Oates in career value due to longevity.
I don't see how anyone could argue against Oates having the better prime.
But I could see Shanny surpassing Oates in career value due to longevity.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
You're asking multiple questions in the same poll.
I don't see how anyone could argue against Oates having the better prime.
But I could see Shanny surpassing Oates in career value due to longevity.
Why?
Shanahan played till 39, Oates till 41.
Shanahan was last top-10 in goals at age 37 (he was 10th). Oates led the NHL in assists at 38 and 39.
Shanahan at age 35 was a 53 point player. oates at 35 was a 58 assist player.
(this has nothing to do with longevity, but I just noticed Oates has 22 more points in 21 fewer playoff games)
Oates for sure.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Brendan Shanahan
Brendan Shanahan was the top LW in the NHL from 1979-80 onwards.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
Messier was primarily a center, while Robitaille had slightly higher point totals but he did not bring the skating, toughness, defense
or team results to the rink that Shanahan did over the length of his career.
Adam Oates. Produced results that surpassed his skill set and projections. Inspirational but during the same era, from 1979-80, the NHL easily featured 25 centers that produced comparable or better results.
Any GM with abilities superior to Mike Milbury takes the LW whose talent dominates over almost two generations.
Brendan Shanahan was the top LW in the NHL from 1979-80 onwards.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
Messier was primarily a center, while Robitaille had slightly higher point totals but he did not bring the skating, toughness, defense
or team results to the rink that Shanahan did over the length of his career.
Adam Oates. Produced results that surpassed his skill set and projections. Inspirational but during the same era, from 1979-80, the NHL easily featured 25 centers that produced comparable or better results.
Any GM with abilities superior to Mike Milbury takes the LW whose talent dominates over almost two generations.
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Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
Again, I'll ask, 25? Name 25 centers in the last 30 years better than Oates. Good luck
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
I'll try, not using players that weren't in the NHL before the lockout. From 1979-2010, but with no players that didn't play prior to 2006. I won't use players who did the majority of their work before 1979, either.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Stastny
Sakic
Yzerman
Trottier
Messier
Dionne
Savard
Hawerchuk
Perreault (arguably due to time frame)
Then you have Ron Francis, Pat Lafontaine (who's prime is arguably better than Oates' prime), and Sergei Fedorov, with two of them having massive playoff advantages on Oates. Joe Thornton will surpass Oates, too, when all is said and done, but I won't list him yet.
25 is a stretch, but 15 may not be, depending on what your view of Oates is. Personally, I would say there are 10-ish that are better than Oates.
As someone who voted for Oates, I gotta say, helluva list. Anyone would be hard to argue Oates over any of them...save for maybe Statsny. And I would say Francis is better - Thornton less. I would say that you've got pretty much the top 10 at the position in that list. Is the 20th best center of all time better than the 10th best wing? Not sure now
Oates is better than hawerchuk, perrault and savard in my opinion. I also dont get how stastny can have any advantage over him since Oates was the better defensive player between the two and has more longevity.
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But Oates started his career at 23, while Shanahan started his at 19, so he actually played 2 years longer. Both slowly got better over their first few years before breaking out, and both were good into their late 30s.
The age 35 point is a bit of picking and choosing your stats. At age 36, Shanahan had 40 goals, placing him 10th in the league, whereas at age 36 Oates had 42 assists (and 54 points). It was in 59 games, sure, but it seems like you're making it out that Shanahan was considerably worse than Oates into their late 30s and that just wasn't the case. I'd say their longevity is about even.
As for who's better, I don't think Shanahan can touch Oates' St. Louis, and early Boston seasons. Oates was probably the best passer in the league after Gretzky and Lemieux, and I think his all-around offensive game (while being solid defensively) trumps Shanahan's physical advantage. Before their primes I think Shanahan was a bit better due to similar totals and his all-around game, and after it was a bit of a wash, as Shanahan became less of a powerforward and wasn't as high up in goals, and Oates became a bit too one-dimentional. Since their longevity is about the same, I think the prime wins out here and it's Oates.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Comparable Results
More or less in chronological order, playing in the NHL between 1979 and 2010, producing comparable results. Only interested in supporting my point not your version.
Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Darryl Sittler, Bobby Clarke,Gilbert Perreault, Wayne Gretzky,MarK Messier, Bobby Smith, Bernie Federko, Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk,Doug Gilmour, Peter Stastny,Ron Francis, Pat Lafontaine,Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Marcel Dionne,Joe Nieuwendyk, Rod Brind'amour, Eric Lindros, Peter Forsberg, Igor Larionov, Sergei Fedorov, Joe Thornton, Vincent Lecavalier, Evgeni Malkin, Sidney Crosby, Eric Staal,Mike Modano, Mats Sundin, Jeremy Roenick - well over 25 with probably a few omissions especially from the last ten years.
More or less in chronological order, playing in the NHL between 1979 and 2010, producing comparable results. Only interested in supporting my point not your version.
Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Darryl Sittler, Bobby Clarke,Gilbert Perreault, Wayne Gretzky,MarK Messier, Bobby Smith, Bernie Federko, Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk,Doug Gilmour, Peter Stastny,Ron Francis, Pat Lafontaine,Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Marcel Dionne,Joe Nieuwendyk, Rod Brind'amour, Eric Lindros, Peter Forsberg, Igor Larionov, Sergei Fedorov, Joe Thornton, Vincent Lecavalier, Evgeni Malkin, Sidney Crosby, Eric Staal,Mike Modano, Mats Sundin, Jeremy Roenick - well over 25 with probably a few omissions especially from the last ten years.
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^When was Jeremy Roenick better than Oates? His prime was 1991-94 with the blackhawks and during that timeframe, Oates outpointed him by 65-70 points. From 1995-2002, Oates also outpointed roenick by a large chunk.
Mentioning Staal, Niuwendyk, Bobby Smith and Lecavlier is laughable.
Since when did Brendan Shanahan become the undisputed king of left wings? Paul Kariya had a much better prime and that alone could be used to rank him above shanahan. Not to mention goulet, robitaille, tkachuk, leclaire and naslund.
Mentioning Staal, Niuwendyk, Bobby Smith and Lecavlier is laughable.
Since when did Brendan Shanahan become the undisputed king of left wings? Paul Kariya had a much better prime and that alone could be used to rank him above shanahan. Not to mention goulet, robitaille, tkachuk, leclaire and naslund.
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Dark Shadows
Registered User
The problem is, those 25 centers(I think that number is an exaggeration) were also better than Shanahan.
On pure career value alone, not including peak, perhaps Shanahan was the most valuable LW. However, there were several left wings better than him in their respective peaks, much like there were several centers better than Oates. The only difference is that Center was a much deeper position at the time, while LW was at the time very weak in comparison.
LeClair... five years peak..Awesome, but nothing else.
Robitaille.. he barely stay on skates and I never saw him play physical game.
Tkachuk.. in the peak even with Shanny but overall was Shanny beter during whole career.
Goulet... eighties..thats says all.
Naslund? Lazy selfish player.
Shanny never became Richard owner of leading sniper but that is all that bring Tkachuck on the table over Shanny.
And if I am GM, I pick Shanny because there are always tons of comparable centers in the league but few goal scorers.
tony d
Registered User
I've said this before about Oates, but something about him just ... bothers me.
I know how great his assist totals are, I know how well he stacks up relative to the other greats of the game in terms of career numbers/top-10 finishes, I know why he's considered a HHOF lock. I know that he was on pace for 120 assists in 1990-91 if he didn't get hurt.
But to me, he just was never quite as good as he looks on paper.
Maybe it's that he was a mercenary who demanded trades out of St. Louis and Boston.
Maybe I'm focusing too much on the end of his career, where there's a bit of a 'Bondra effect' happening where going 15-60-75 looks more impressive than going 30-45-75.
I don't know.
But when I see polls like this, my instant response is to take Shanahan without thinking twice.
I guess I feel about Oates the way a lot of people here feel about Turgeon, and don't see a huge difference between the two.
I know how great his assist totals are, I know how well he stacks up relative to the other greats of the game in terms of career numbers/top-10 finishes, I know why he's considered a HHOF lock. I know that he was on pace for 120 assists in 1990-91 if he didn't get hurt.
But to me, he just was never quite as good as he looks on paper.
Maybe it's that he was a mercenary who demanded trades out of St. Louis and Boston.
Maybe I'm focusing too much on the end of his career, where there's a bit of a 'Bondra effect' happening where going 15-60-75 looks more impressive than going 30-45-75.
I don't know.
But when I see polls like this, my instant response is to take Shanahan without thinking twice.
I guess I feel about Oates the way a lot of people here feel about Turgeon, and don't see a huge difference between the two.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Adam Oates on Ice
A few paragraphs from one of my posts in the 2010 HHOF thread which basically relates to Adam Oates on ice performance.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=584161&page=9
Adam Oates had hockey sense and vision? Very limited, lazy players' version. Offense mirrors defense, defense mirrors offense. Basic hockey skills required to play both remain constant, the work ethic to do so is another matter. If a player has the hockey vision and sense to play great offense then the same vision(eyes do not shut down when the other team has the puck) and the same sense(brain does not shut down when the other team has the puck)
that allows the player to play elite offense by getting the puck to teammates or into the net allows him to get into the proper position defensively to prevent scoring.Great centers with lower scoring totals - Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Stan Mikita, Jacques Lemaire, Dave Keon amongst many others,made the effort defensively visually and intellectually.These great centers did not require phantom arguments to get them into the HHOF.
Major Oates problem at both ends. Offensively he was excellent at getting the puck to a Hull or a Neely but he would not do the other things necessary offensively to contribute to scoring. He would not crash the net, screen, work the slot to create additional chances. Like Joe Thornton today with great numbers especially assist totals, easy to play against. Defensively Oates had the same problem. Rarely in sync with the team he would not play his own end with any extra effort. If you have the ability to see offensive passing lanes then you have the ability to see the necessary defense to eliminate or reduce passing lanes on defense like Guy Carbonneau did. If you have the hockey sense to avoid having passes stopped then you have the sense to get in the way and block shots like Guy Carbonneau did.That a player does not have the willingness is another issue.
A few paragraphs from one of my posts in the 2010 HHOF thread which basically relates to Adam Oates on ice performance.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=584161&page=9
Adam Oates had hockey sense and vision? Very limited, lazy players' version. Offense mirrors defense, defense mirrors offense. Basic hockey skills required to play both remain constant, the work ethic to do so is another matter. If a player has the hockey vision and sense to play great offense then the same vision(eyes do not shut down when the other team has the puck) and the same sense(brain does not shut down when the other team has the puck)
that allows the player to play elite offense by getting the puck to teammates or into the net allows him to get into the proper position defensively to prevent scoring.Great centers with lower scoring totals - Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Stan Mikita, Jacques Lemaire, Dave Keon amongst many others,made the effort defensively visually and intellectually.These great centers did not require phantom arguments to get them into the HHOF.
Major Oates problem at both ends. Offensively he was excellent at getting the puck to a Hull or a Neely but he would not do the other things necessary offensively to contribute to scoring. He would not crash the net, screen, work the slot to create additional chances. Like Joe Thornton today with great numbers especially assist totals, easy to play against. Defensively Oates had the same problem. Rarely in sync with the team he would not play his own end with any extra effort. If you have the ability to see offensive passing lanes then you have the ability to see the necessary defense to eliminate or reduce passing lanes on defense like Guy Carbonneau did. If you have the hockey sense to avoid having passes stopped then you have the sense to get in the way and block shots like Guy Carbonneau did.That a player does not have the willingness is another issue.
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Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
Shanny was much more physical, a better leader and better defensively. It's not just about the numbers when comparing Shanny to anyone. Shanny might have the best career value of any PF winger since Howe retired (ie Neely had a better peak).
Oates was probably the 2nd or 3rd best passer I've seen, but IMO Shanny's considerable intangibles surpass that.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
Hawerchuk? Really? He wasn't better than Francis or Fedorov by any stretch of imagination, and I wouldn't say he was better than Oates or hell even Gilmour.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Thanks, but my post that you quoted was in response to a comment on longevity.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
- I'm not really sure how the age they started at has anything to do with longevity; which is usually measured by performance during declining years.
- I used the ages as of january 1st of the season, just like hockey-reference.com does. What you did was choose to call Shanahan 36 for the 2006 season, and call Oates 35 for that one.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Why? Because I was drinking vodka since dinner at a woman's house and yet still signed on to hfboards on occasion to make bad posts. Compounded by the fact that hockey reference was crashing my computer.
Eh, he still asked 2 different questions in the poll, though.
Age they started definitely matters. It's how "long" their career, or at least productive career was. They seem pretty even in that regards.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I think I know what you mean. When I was watching Oates, I never ever got the sense that I was watching a true all-time great or an elite player, like I did even with his linemate Neely.
In Washington, everyone focused on Bondra. Oates was sort of an afterthought.
(Didn't really watch much hockey when Oates was with Hull so I can't comment on it).
Honestly, just from watching them, I would have picked Francis as a better player, and Francis never really had an elite peak himself.
And yet Oates' stats are outrageously high.
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jkrx
Registered User
- Feb 4, 2010
- 4,337
- 21
The LW list during Shanahan's peak years was not as strong as the center position. At center, you had some of the best players of all time playing.
Since he broke into the league, Adam Oates had the 6th most amount of points among centers during that time and second in assists. That list has guys like Gretzky, Mario, Yzerman, Sakic, etc etc. I'd take Oates place among a talent pool of centers that deep over Shanahan's place among LW.
As TDMM said, it does matter when we're taking about how "long" they were productive. And they were pretty even there.
My bad, I was using hockey-reference as well, but it was 2 AM and I missed the lockout. So, it was Shanahan's age 37 season (though, I was right about Oates' 36 season). The point still stands. You randomly took their age 35 seasons to make it seem like Shanahan was a 50-something point scorer after age 35, yet he had another top 10 goal-scoring year at 37, and another almost point per game season at 38. And while Oates ' top 5ish finishes in assists, including two firsts, in his later 30s looks impressive, he was not an elite-level offensive player (Shanahan wasn't either, obviously). He was basically Henrik Sedin (before this season)
