Toggle sidebar

Oakland fans hoping minor league baseball to replace Athletics

hotcabbagesoup

hotcabbagesoup

why u guys want Celebrini, he played like a weenie
Feb 18, 2009
10,115
13,694
Reno, Nevada
Oakland doesn't deserve it. Now, southerly South Bay ( Gilroy, Watsonville, Hollister-ish) really loves baseball and would devour it.
 
GindyDraws

GindyDraws

I will not disable my Adblock, HF
Mar 13, 2014
2,896
2,186
Indianapolis
On a technical level, the Pioneer League will require a twelfth team to offset things. Either they'll send a feeler to Salem-Keizer (who have ran a summer league for a few seasons now) or be stuck with one of those dreaded travel teams.

On a practical level, I'm not sure if this will be meaningful unless fans actually show up and support this club. There does remain some interest in these teams at the moment but it has remained a challenge as one of the advantages of the Rookie Level back in the day was your tenuous connection to Major League Baseball. Now you have to rely on the community to support the team entirely, and this will be especially challenging for a city that has lost every major sports franchise.
 
Centrum Hockey

Centrum Hockey

Registered User
Aug 2, 2018
2,092
728
San Jose is supposedly one of the worst CA league ballparks maybe in 5-10 years the giants will get involved in the colosseum redevelopment and build a 3000-5000 seat stadium on the site for low a.
 
PCSPounder

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,877
574
The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
JDogindy said:
On a technical level, the Pioneer League will require a twelfth team to offset things. Either they'll send a feeler to Salem-Keizer (who have ran a summer league for a few seasons now) or be stuck with one of those dreaded travel teams.

On a practical level, I'm not sure if this will be meaningful unless fans actually show up and support this club. There does remain some interest in these teams at the moment but it has remained a challenge as one of the advantages of the Rookie Level back in the day was your tenuous connection to Major League Baseball. Now you have to rely on the community to support the team entirely, and this will be especially challenging for a city that has lost every major sports franchise.
Click to expand...
The league is saying that another Northern California team will be added… and referenced an eventual west coast division of the league. Which… yeah, that would need to happen. Salem-Keizer would make sense for that, but the other prize would require getting Medford to relent in their continuing rebellion against pro baseball. Unless Eugene’s NWL ballpark effort fails.

I’m immediately thinking of Chico, who tried forever to get a California League team and then tried to anchor a collegiate wood bat league that eventually failed. But there might also be a suitable park in Yuba City. Lodi? I know that, in market terms, I’d be looking at the Santa Rosa area (though an old Rohnert Park ballpark has been erased) and Redding, but current facilities aren’t enough.
 

Vegan Knight

Registered User
Feb 16, 2018
5,193
2,736
PCSPounder said:
When the owner(s) of your team tank the team for 20 years, will you and your fellow fans deserve it?
Click to expand...

They made the playoffs 7 of the first 17 seasons with Fisher as owner, 7 of 19 overall.

Only recently has 12 of 30 teams made it yearly, in a league where rich teams can buy a higher likelihood of playoffs, that's not a bad run at all.

4 of those were division titles, they've had 9 winning seasons, 9 losing seasons and 1 .500 season since Fisher.

They've won 1,478 games in those times and lost 1,497. (.497)

Before the past two seasons (60-102, 50-112) they were healthily over .500 during the tenure.

On the field since Fisher took over they weren't treated to historically terrible baseball, or even a bad run based on league averages.

Comparing them to the Mets as a random team that has money to spend.

A’s 2005-2021
1368-1283 (.516)
9 winning seasons, 7 losing seasons, 1 .500 season
4 division titles, 7 playoffs
Most wins 97 (twice, a third paced to 97) most losses 94
5 90+ win seasons, 1 97 win pace season

Mets 2005-2021
1323-1329 (.499)
7 winning seasons, 10 losing seasons
2 division titles, 3 playoffs
Most wins 97, most losses 92 (twice)
2 90+ wins seasons

Here's adding the last two seasons for completeness.

A’s 2005-2023
1478-1497 (.497)
9 winning seasons, 9 losing seasons, 1 .500 season
4 division titles, 7 playoffs
Most wins 97 (twice, a third paced to 97) most losses 112
5 90+ win seasons, 1 97 win pace season

Mets 2005-2023
1499-1477 (.504)
8 winning, 11 losing
2 division titles, 2 playoffs
Most wins 101, most losses 92 (twice)
3 90+ win seasons (1 100 win season)

The past two years show definite tanking, the 17 years before that? Not so much.

They have had the third lowest payroll in that time, ahead of only the Rays and Pirates, but they have been right near the same number as four other teams in the Marlins, Royals, Padres and Orioles.

They have been small spenders but have also been losing money the entire time despite getting revenue sharing, the lower payrolls a consequence of the team's lower revenues despite some success on the field.

The attendance rankings of those seven teams with the lowest payrolls from 2005-2023 are Rays (27th), Pirates (22nd), A’s (30th), Marlins (28th), Royals (29th), Padres (20th), Orioles (21st).
 
Last edited:
KevFu

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,217
3,442
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
Centrum Hockey said:
San Jose is supposedly one of the worst CA league ballparks maybe in 5-10 years the giants will get involved in the colosseum redevelopment and build a 3000-5000 seat stadium on the site for low a.
Click to expand...

That's the thing... a minor league team in Oakland would be A LOT like the San Jose Giants situation.

The San Jose stadium was a "Big League Park" when the Pacific Coast League was nearly the third major league, before the Dodgers and Giants moved from New York. But there's been FOUR generations of new baseball stadiums since then and that stadium is old, decrepit and the ONLY reason they didn't get dumped from MLB's reorganization of the minors was because they're in San Jose.

Santa Clara University's stadium is a whole lot nicer than the San Jose Giants (a lot smaller, but you get the idea).

The Oakland Coliseum is basically 2 stadium cycles behind. You're not going to get attendance for minor league ball there because the stadium is still terrible and now the team isn't Major League playing MLB opponents.

I hope no one sees the future failure of Oakland minor league team as an indictment of baseball fandom in the East Bay. You need a new stadium in the East Bay, period. Regardless of who it's for. And if you're gonna build a minor league stadium, just build a MAJOR LEAGUE stadium on your terms, not the A's terms. And ask MLB if that's enough for an expansion team, and if it isn't, get a Triple A team when MLB expands.
 
KevFu

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,217
3,442
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
Vegan Knight said:
Comparing them to the Mets as a random team that has money to spend.
Click to expand...

I'd say the Mets are a terrible team to use as a comparison for anyone because of the relative uniqueness of their situation.

The Mets owners were running ALL their finances through Bernie Madoff. Madoff was using them to put up appearances of being legit, so when the Mets or the Wilpons wanted to withdraw the money they invested with him, Madoff transferred it to him.

But the Mets owners made all their planning around the unrealistic ROI Madoff was claiming. So they had long-term financial planning done on their payroll and FINANCING THEIR STADIUM that was like 20% over what their business was really worth.

When Madoff was arrested, they had to belt-tighten and take out loans to survive (which MLB never should have allowed).

So your data points are using a team that was in a financial situation that no pro sports team should ever realistically be in ever again.
 

Vegan Knight

Registered User
Feb 16, 2018
5,193
2,736
KevFu said:
I'd say the Mets are a terrible team to use as a comparison for anyone because of the relative uniqueness of their situation.

The Mets owners were running ALL their finances through Bernie Madoff. Madoff was using them to put up appearances of being legit, so when the Mets or the Wilpons wanted to withdraw the money they invested with him, Madoff transferred it to him.

But the Mets owners made all their planning around the unrealistic ROI Madoff was claiming. So they had long-term financial planning done on their payroll and FINANCING THEIR STADIUM that was like 20% over what their business was really worth.

When Madoff was arrested, they had to belt-tighten and take out loans to survive (which MLB never should have allowed).

So your data points are using a team that was in a financial situation that no pro sports team should ever realistically be in ever again.
Click to expand...


The Mets still had top 5 payroll in 9 of 19 seasons, top 10 in 12 of 19, and are among the biggest total spenders of the time frame. They aren't at all a bad example of a random team with money to spend on the field in the time discussed.

The Athletics have the 9th best record of all 30 teams in Fisher's 19 year tenure, if you want that as a data point that debunks saying they've been tanking for twenty years.
 
KevFu

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,217
3,442
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
Vegan Knight said:
The Mets still had top 5 payroll in 9 of 19 seasons, top 10 in 12 of 19, and are among the biggest total spenders of the time frame. They aren't at all a bad example of a random team with money to spend on the field in the time discussed.

The Athletics have the 9th best record of all 30 teams in Fisher's 19 year tenure, if you want that as a data point that debunks saying they've been tanking for twenty years.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean, I agree with your overall point. I'm just saying as a peer group, the biggest S-Show or Cluster-F franchise/ownership tenure in baseball history might not be the guidepost!


The A's weren't tanking until 2022. And I disagree with the use of tanking to describe what they did anyway.

To me, "tanking" is "we're gonna suck to get the top draft pick" and there's zero reason for any sports league to have anti-tanking rules, but it's doubly-stupid in baseball, where you aren't watching Bedard crush juniors and deciding to tank to go get him;

The A's decided to purge their expensive players just to save money. And they made that decision in the winter of 2021-22.

After sucking in 2022 they got a draft pick in the 2023 Draft... 20 months and TWO college/high school baseball seasons after their decision (after there was no 2020 season). Their 2023 1st round pick hadn't played a single college game yet when they decided to suck. How is that "tanking?"

Tanking is a problem people made up that doesn't really exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG and Summer Rose
PCSPounder

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,877
574
The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
KevFu said:
Yeah, I mean, I agree with your overall point. I'm just saying as a peer group, the biggest S-Show or Cluster-F franchise/ownership tenure in baseball history might not be the guidepost!


The A's weren't tanking until 2022. And I disagree with the use of tanking to describe what they did anyway.

To me, "tanking" is "we're gonna suck to get the top draft pick" and there's zero reason for any sports league to have anti-tanking rules, but it's doubly-stupid in baseball, where you aren't watching Bedard crush juniors and deciding to tank to go get him;

The A's decided to purge their expensive players just to save money. And they made that decision in the winter of 2021-22.

After sucking in 2022 they got a draft pick in the 2023 Draft... 20 months and TWO college/high school baseball seasons after their decision (after there was no 2020 season). Their 2023 1st round pick hadn't played a single college game yet when they decided to suck. How is that "tanking?"

Tanking is a problem people made up that doesn't really exist.
Click to expand...
Eh, your narrow definition of tanking is narrow. 😁
 
KevFu

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,217
3,442
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
PCSPounder said:
Eh, your narrow definition of tanking is narrow. 😁
Click to expand...

I get that opinion, but I think it's important to differentiate between WHY teams are sucking on purpose.

"Tanking" came up in the MLBPA negotiations with MLB because the players want the owners to spend more money on players. The players basically just want the teams to go back to being stupid...

It makes no sense for teams who are bad and know they're going to be bad to spend $50m on free agents so they have a $125m payroll and finish in the bottom 10 of MLB... when they can finish in the bottom 10 for $75m payroll. Branch Rickey said it to Ralph Kiner 70 years ago: "Son, we finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

Because of the MLBPA's arguments, the league put "anti-tanking rules" in place: aka, a Draft Lottery. And that's where my points become valid... "Tanking for a draft pick" doesn't exist in baseball....

What Oakland did by not signing Semien, trading away Chapman, Olson, Murphy, Bassitt, Manaea, etc, etc... was simply be a COST-EFFICIENT BAD TEAM instead of a more expensive bad team. Which is just good business.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG
Mightygoose

Mightygoose

Registered User
Nov 5, 2012
5,616
1,442
Ajax, ON
Couldn't the Ballers look at booking a 2025 date instead?

The A's current lease won't be valid anymore and the B's can still do what they want to accomplish
 

Boss Man Hughes

Registered User
Mar 15, 2022
13,814
9,216
KevFu said:
I get that opinion, but I think it's important to differentiate between WHY teams are sucking on purpose.

"Tanking" came up in the MLBPA negotiations with MLB because the players want the owners to spend more money on players. The players basically just want the teams to go back to being stupid...

It makes no sense for teams who are bad and know they're going to be bad to spend $50m on free agents so they have a $125m payroll and finish in the bottom 10 of MLB... when they can finish in the bottom 10 for $75m payroll. Branch Rickey said it to Ralph Kiner 70 years ago: "Son, we finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

Because of the MLBPA's arguments, the league put "anti-tanking rules" in place: aka, a Draft Lottery. And that's where my points become valid... "Tanking for a draft pick" doesn't exist in baseball....

What Oakland did by not signing Semien, trading away Chapman, Olson, Murphy, Bassitt, Manaea, etc, etc... was simply be a COST-EFFICIENT BAD TEAM instead of a more expensive bad team. Which is just good business.
Click to expand...
No it's a worthless cheap ass scum bag owner.
 
PCSPounder

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,877
574
The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
Wondering if (1) MLB will eventually abandon the Northwest League depending on the success or failure of three current stadium initiatives, and thus (2) would these sites also be absorbed by the Pioneer League.

Hillsboro, Eugene, and Everett are all begging for state help.
 
GindyDraws

GindyDraws

I will not disable my Adblock, HF
Mar 13, 2014
2,896
2,186
Indianapolis
PCSPounder said:
Wondering if (1) MLB will eventually abandon the Northwest League depending on the success or failure of three current stadium initiatives, and thus (2) would these sites also be absorbed by the Pioneer League.

Hillsboro, Eugene, and Everett are all begging for state help.
Click to expand...
Part of it is that the area has a big American Legion baseball following and they'd like to maintain the indirect pipeline, plus the Mariners and a possible Portland MLB franchise are in that region.

The problem would be where to put another six team league, as many of the teams that were dropped were abandoned due to having really old stadiums in towns that would have never been able to upgrade, especially in time for 2025, which would eliminate the old New York Penn League. You could, instead, add six expansion teams to that division's two other leagues.

Considering how Boise was absorbed by the Pioneer League from the Northwest, I'd say that the answer is likely probable on most of those teams.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Ad

Latest posts

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

Top Bottom