Line Combos: Nylander as a Center Discussion

[ponder]

The main thing I like about this idea is that JT is a legitimately bad 2C at even strength, and that's not gonna change, while Nylander could at least maybe grow into the role.

JT is just too slow and weak defensively to be an effective centre at the NHL level anymore, he doesn't drive the play and is a liability in his own end. Obviously it sucks that he has the 4th highest cap hit of any centre in the league (behind only MacKinnon, McDavid and Matthews), and is a liability as even a 2C, but it's the truth. It's not just the "eye test" either, stats back this up - Keefe does everything possible to give him soft minutes AND great wingers, and he was still last among Leafs forwards in +/- 2022/23, and 2nd last in 2021/22 (and as expected, worst +/- of any Leaf, by a huge margin, over the past 2 years combined: NHL Stats). He's still good on the PP, but man, he is a bad 2C at even strength.

If Nylander can, over the course of the season, grow into an effective 2C, that lets us move JT to wing where his weak defence and slow feet are less of an issue. That would at least slightly mitigate how much of an albatross that contract is, as I do think JT could still be an effective winger - still not worth anywhere remotely close to $11 mil, but at least he could likely be a positive contributor and not a negative contributor at even strength, ignoring salary.

 

[Peasy]

Uh JT is an extremely unreliable defensive player

Bad skating of course hurts, but he isnt good with his reads and often can blow coverage not being able to react quick enough to plays.

If Nylander is at C and JT a winger for him we would need a defensive winger who can help them both out as they both arent great defensively.

I think Knies can be a good defensive player and be a guy who fits that line. Would have him stapled there with Jarnkrok (surefire good defensive guy who has some Offense) ready in case knies struggles

Yeah I know JT sucks defensively as a C but I think that could improve moving him to the wing (doesnt have to cover as much ice, still strong along the boards etc). But doesn't seem like theyre interested in trying that.

 

[hamzarocks]

Yeah I know JT sucks defensively as a C but I think that could improve moving him to the wing (doesnt have to cover as much ice, still strong along the boards etc). But doesn't seem like theyre interested in trying that.

Problem is I think we want to separate JT and Nylander

Doing so kind of hurts the two way play of both lines

If a guy like Kampf was a legit good 3rd liner, you could play him and Tavares at wing to form a great 2B line. But Kampf is not good enough offensively to play with Tavares and expect that line to work out well for us.

Marner is good defensively outside of his size limitations at times.

I don't get why we dont run Nylander and Marner and Matthews and Tavares duos

Try it out, see how it clicks offensively and see whether defensively, 34 and 16 help stablize the lines while letting 91 shift to Wing and 88 to Center

 

[The Mitchician]

Fair points Syph and Jamason.

And yet we could still try to deploy Domi or other options at 3rd line if need be.

I really wish the cap era was over because our hands our tied a bit and hopefully Trev makes some magic as I feel we are more of a threat with Nylander in our line up.

If we did have to trade and make a few trades to become compliable,.. I could live with this one below to round out our team (if all parties were willing) but for some reason I hope we can keep Nylander in our line up this year
Nylander, 2024 1st to Ducks for:

Max Jones
Brett Leason
Ducks 2024 2nd

Then

Timmons
Jarnkrock
Ducks 2024 2nd
for:

Zadorov


Bertuzzi - Matthews - Marner
Knies - Tavares - Jones
Leason - Domi - Lafferty
Robertson - Kampf - Reaves

Rielly - Zadorov
McCabe - Liljegren
Brodie - Klingberg
Gio

(yes Zadorov on a first would be an experiment and could move down to suit our 2nd or third pairing d core if needed)

 

[notDatsyuk]

Problem is I think we want to separate JT and Nylander

Doing so kind of hurts the two way play of both lines

If a guy like Kampf was a legit good 3rd liner, you could play him and Tavares at wing to form a great 2B line. But Kampf is not good enough offensively to play with Tavares and expect that line to work out well for us.

Marner is good defensively outside of his size limitations at times.

I don't get why we dont run Nylander and Marner and Matthews and Tavares duos

Try it out, see how it clicks offensively and see whether defensively, 34 and 16 help stablize the lines while letting 91 shift to Wing and 88 to Center

Unless Domi is worse defensively than JT, I think the second line with Willy at centre and Domi and maybe Jarnkrok on the wing will be better both offensively and defensively.

Tavares playing on the top line with Matty is just a no-no. Willy and Mitch together could be wild, but I think one of them should be with Matty, and if Willy is 2C, Mitch should stay on the top line.

I think two slower, grinder-style players will benefit JT more that the speedy Nylander type, and make a hard-to-play-against third line.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Fair points Syph and Jamason.

And yet we could still try to deploy Domi or other options at 3rd line if need be.

I really wish the cap era was over because our hands our tied a bit and hopefully Trev makes some magic as I feel we are more of a threat with Nylander in our line up.

If we did have to trade and make a few trades to become compliable,.. I could live with this one below to round out our team (if all parties were willing) but for some reason I hope we can keep Nylander in our line up this year
Nylander, 2024 1st to Ducks for:

Max Jones
Brett Leason
Ducks 2024 2nd

Then

Timmons
Jarnkrock
Ducks 2024 2nd
for:

Zadorov


Bertuzzi - Matthews - Marner
Knies - Tavares - Jones
Leason - Domi - Lafferty
Robertson - Kampf - Reaves

Rielly - Zadorov
McCabe - Liljegren
Brodie - Klingberg
Gio

(yes Zadorov on a first would be an experiment and could move down to suit our 2nd or third pairing d core if needed)

The cap era won't end at least as long as Bettman is around, because that is about all that rescues his pet teams from the scrap heap.

I'm not impressed with your trades. I think Willy is worth more than Jones and Leason - we should be able to do better.

 

[ULF_55]

The cap era won't end at least as long as Bettman is around, because that is about all that rescues his pet teams from the scrap heap.

I'm not impressed with your trades. I think Willy is worth more than Jones and Leason - we should be able to do better.

Jones and Leason?

Is this trade after the season for negotiation rights?

 

[sxvnert]

Leafs are better off putting Marner at center

Bertuzzi Matthews Nylander
Tavares Marner Domi
Knies Holmberg Lafferty
Jarnkrok Kampf Gambrell

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

What did anyone think of Nylander's play last night?

I thought he did pretty good.

It doesn't look like the coaches trust him fully still. When the puck goes behind the Leafs goal line it looks like Nylander is assigned front of net and the two defensemen muck it up in the corners. It also looked like he took a couple draws and then faded to winger.

But I thought he was effective on the forecheck and played a good game overall.

He was definitely the best Leafs centre of the game. Lol... so there's that I guess. But he also posted a ixG = 0.61 making him the best positional player on both teams last night.

I know it was only a preseason game against inferior opponent, but if Nylander can keep it up, the Leafs might be on to something.

Go Leafs Go

 

[34]

Not convinced Nylander makes it past this years trade deadline. Thinking that Trelivings move to put him at center is to showcase Willy for a larger trade return.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Jones and Leason?

Is this trade after the season for negotiation rights?

No idea - it was someone else's suggestion.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What did anyone think of Nylander's play last night?

I thought he did pretty good.

It doesn't look like the coaches trust him fully still. When the puck goes behind the Leafs goal line it looks like Nylander is assigned front of net and the two defensemen muck it up in the corners. It also looked like he took a couple draws and then faded to winger.

But I thought he was effective on the forecheck and played a good game overall.

He was definitely the best Leafs centre of the game. Lol... so there's that I guess. But he also posted a ixG = 0.61 making him the best positional player on both teams last night.

I know it was only a preseason game against inferior opponent, but if Nylander can keep it up, the Leafs might be on to something.

Go Leafs Go

When the puck goes behind the net, depending on how many opposing players are there, one or two of the D and C go back. If both D go behind the goal line, the centre has to stay in front.

He took fewer faceoffs as the game went on, but there were fewer to take, and he improved:
1st period of 26 faceoffs he took 10 (38%) and went 2-8
2nd period of 20 faceoffs he took 7 (35%) and went 5-2
3rd period of 13 faceoffs he took 5 (38%) and went 4-1

And while it was an "inferior opponent", he took faceoffs against four of their five players with the most faceoffs last year.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

When the puck goes behind the net, depending on how many opposing players are there, one or two of the D and C go back. If both D go behind the goal line, the centre has to stay in front.

He took fewer faceoffs as the game went on, but there were fewer to take, and he improved:
1st period of 26 faceoffs he took 10 (38%) and went 2-8
2nd period of 20 faceoffs he took 7 (35%) and went 5-2
3rd period of 13 faceoffs he took 5 (38%) and went 4-1

And while it was an "inferior opponent", he took faceoffs against four of their five players with the most faceoffs last year.

Thanks for the response.

The reason I say I don't think the coaches trust him much still is that it didn't seem to matter who was in the corners/behind the net, Nylander always seemed to be net front presence while the defensemen were digging the puck out.

Standard defense is two on two down low, one man in front of the net, and wingers in shooting lanes. Usually the man in front of the net is a defenseman, and as the puck swings over to the other side, the defensemen trade off, meanwhile the centre tracks the other teams centre in the slot and corners. I didn't see any of that happening with Nylander, it looked to me like he just stood in front of the net regardless and only went back for support when the defensemen were outnumbered.

I haven't watched today's game yet though, so maybe I'll see something different tonight.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Thanks for the response.

The reason I say I don't think the coaches trust him much still is that it didn't seem to matter who was in the corners/behind the net, Nylander always seemed to be net front presence while the defensemen were digging the puck out.

Standard defense is two on two down low, one man in front of the net, and wingers in shooting lanes. Usually the man in front of the net is a defenseman, and as the puck swings over to the other side, the defensemen trade off, meanwhile the centre tracks the other teams centre in the slot and corners. I didn't see any of that happening with Nylander, it looked to me like he just stood in front of the net regardless and only went back for support when the defensemen were outnumbered.

I haven't watched today's game yet though, so maybe I'll see something different tonight.

Mainly depends on who moves first, and who goes where. If both D go behind the goal line and there's an opposing player out front, where do you want the centre? If the centre follows a player into the corner, one D has to stay out front. Timing, awareness, and communication.

I suspect it's more a matter of him being slow going that deep, rather than a coaching edict.

At least he seemed better at covering the man in the slot than JT often was.

 

[ZEBROA]

Dont know were i heard it , but i think Keefe in his mind think Nylander is a winger, and that the leach is realy short. So Nylander need to be better then Tavares at least. If they both make a similar mistake Nylander is the one getting the demotion. But in reality it should be the other way around. Longer leach getting a lot of time setteling in. Make misstakes and get a chance to be better next game.

Keefe got the patience of a 3 year old with some players and is like a Zen master with others.

 

[thewave]

Dont know were i heard it , but i think Keefe in his mind think Nylander is a winger, and that the leach is realy short. So Nylander need to be better then Tavares at least. If they both make a similar mistake Nylander is the one getting the demotion. But in reality it should be the other way around. Longer leach getting a lot of time setteling in. Make misstakes and get a chance to be better next game.

Keefe got the patience of a 3 year old with some players and is like a Zen master with others.

As if Keefe's opinion should matter at all. The guy has won a single NHL PO series to a gimped out TB while having a star studded team of his own. Countless comments fly around about him being out coached in every series.

Insanity is this. The Leafs. Where you have executives that get blessed with some amazing team changing landmark picks and decide to hire on learn on the fly managers to somehow hobble together a coherent NHL team platform.

Imagine starting any business with nobody that has experience in your halls. There isn't even a corrective voice of reason in there that isn't an underling.

 

[Notsince67]

Lets give the man more then one game before deciding . There will be a learning curve to adjust to the new role and new teammates.

I'd give it until Christmas. Just get a good line running and I'm happy.