Now when Lidstrom got his 5th norris, how far can he climb?

[Crazyhorse]

I already consider him as a top three defencemen, i wasn't around for Eddie Shore (i doubt anyone on these boards was), and i have respect for the old generation, but come on, the league is FAR more competitive nowadays. The lesser amount of players, the bigger chance to win personal awards, simple as that.

He should have 6 Norris by now, if Blake and the league wouldn't have robbed him.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

It's impossible to compair eras directly, so I try to compair relative competition and relative dominance. More d-men were among the best players in the league during Shore's day, and Shore was clearly the best player in the league for most of his career. Lidstrom can't match that.

I have no doubt that if Shore was born in 1980, he'd be destroying the league now.

 

[The_Human_Atombomb]

I already consider him as a top three defencemen, i wasn't around for Eddie Shore (i doubt anyone on these boards was), and i have respect for the old generation, but come on, the league is FAR more competitive nowadays. The lesser amount of players, the bigger chance to win personal awards, simple as that.

He should have 6 Norris by now, if Blake and the league wouldn't have robbed him.

As for the better competition: Can you imagine what a 6 team league would be like today?
For example a league with Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff, Lundqvist, Hasek, Miller as the only goalies you face every night.
Right now we have 420 forwards and 180 defenseman on the 30 teams, in a 6 team league there are 72 forwards and 36 defenseman left. Players like Arnott or Nagy wouldn't even be in the NHL.

 

[Crazyhorse]

As for the better competition: Can you imagine what a 6 team league would be like today?
For example a league with Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff, Lundqvist, Hasek, Miller as the only goalies you face every night.
Right now we have 420 forwards and 180 defenseman on the 30 teams, in a 6 team league there are 72 forwards and 36 defenseman left. Players like Arnott or Nagy wouldn't even be in the NHL.

There are TO much talent in the world today to _not_ have a 30 team league. In the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, there wasn't that much talent available (read the WHA).

Bigger selection = bigger potential

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

I already consider him as a top three defencemen, i wasn't around for Eddie Shore (i doubt anyone on these boards was), and i have respect for the old generation, but come on, the league is FAR more competitive nowadays. The lesser amount of players, the bigger chance to win personal awards, simple as that.

He should have 6 Norris by now, if Blake and the league wouldn't have robbed him.

Why is it when someone says for example that Yzerman should've won the Conn Smythe in 2002, everyone calls it Canadian bias. But whenever anyone says something like Lidstrom should've won the Norris in 98 it's somehow zero bias in that statement?

 

[Corto]

He's already top-5 IMO.

I don't think you can rate Eddie Shore that easily to be honest.
All the legends you read about 70 years later tend to be overblown, much like unborn people today will be talking about Lidstrom in 50 years (though at least they'll have DVDs and stuff of him).

For all the people around here who put Shore in the top-3, I wonder how many were born in the 1920s, 1930s and have actually watched him. Cos there are a lot of "definitely above Lidstrom and Co." comments, which makes no sense unless you've seen him play. And not just two games either.

Yeah, he was one of the greats... But it's hard to compare hockey from the 1930s to the hockey in the 90s and 00s. If you don't believe it's more competetive today than in the 30s, that just makes no sense. The talent pool was miniscule compared to today, the money was less, and the players weren't making themselves into machines with as much work on their bodies as they do today.
Has Shore been born in 1970, his talent and work ethic would have likely had him as an elite defenseman, but I think it's debatable (at best) if he would've come close to dominating like he did in the 1930s.

 

[BNHL]

Buddy, think about what you just said. If their are six teams in the worlds top league that leaves room for the top 120 players roughly. Now that there are 30 teams, that leaves room for the top 600+ players! Your telling me thats better competition?!

Also your equipment and conditioning argument is week as its not like Orr and Shore were skating around in Vapor 30s themsevles blasting shots with one peices. It was a level playing ground, as it is now.

6 teams with players exclusively from North America. 30 teams with the talent pool covering the entire earth. Forsberg,Jagr,Lidstrom,Stastny,Bure would not have been in the NHL in the 6 team days.

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

1) Can he reach Doug Harvey's 7 Norris Trophies?
2) Can he actually become the 2nd best defenseman alltime? (after Orr)
3) Can he become the best european player ever in the NHL

1) If Lidstrom plays at the same level he's played at throughout his career...easily.
2) I think he already is.
3) Next to Forsberg in his prime, He already is.

 

[BNHL]

I'd have to put him on a level playing field with Bourque,Potvin,Park,Robinson with all of them nip and tuck.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I don't think you can rate Eddie Shore that easily to be honest.
All the legends you read about 70 years later tend to be overblown, much like unborn people today will be talking about Lidstrom in 50 years (though at least they'll have DVDs and stuff of him).

Except that absolutly never happens in hockey. In baseball, sure. But in hockey, classic players are consistently put down, degraded and underrated. People rarely hype up players prior to Richard, many of the MVPs of the era are forgotten to time. Pre-WW2 players get no respect what so ever by the vast majority of hockey fans. It's an absolute farce to say they're overblown.

And your right, it is impossible to compair Shore to Lidstrom in the same way we compair Lidstrom to Neidermeyer. Which is why, like I said, I compair relative competition and dominance.

And, if Shore and Lidstrom can't be compaired, why are you not calling out those who say Lidstrom is better? I think it's alot more reasonable to side with the 4 time MVP than the 0 time MVP.

 

[Randall Graves*]

He's in that 7-12 range. I have Orr, Shore, Potvin, Harvey, Robinson, and Bourque ahead of for sure. He's in that next group with Park, Pilote, Chelios etc He's had tremendous longevity but I don't think his peak is quite as high as the first six..

 

[ck26]

harvey played for the unstoppable canadians in the 50s. No one can argue that the 50s were more competive than the 90s or 00s

And your right, it is impossible to compair Shore to Lidstrom in the same way we compair Lidstrom to Neidermeyer. Which is why, like I said, I compair relative competition and dominance. I think it's alot more reasonable to side with the 4 time MVP than the 0 time MVP.

I love this (completely unresolvable) argument.

Just because there are (presumably) more yahoos in the league now, skating on the 4th line for Columbus and Phoenix doesn't mean the league is "less competitive." Why are SO many players from the Toronto and Montreal metropolitan areas? Because competition inherently improves everyone's game ... if you're an almost-great kid playing in Nanuvut, who are you playing against? Who is going to challenge you to make you better? What top-level teammate / competition is going to help you improve? We've added the European, Russian and American players, and that MUST make the league better.

Sergei Zubov and Jere Lehtinen are prototypical Bland Euros ... they skate a ton, they're extremely skilled, will they'll never be in a fight, ever. Compare them to Sprague Cleghorn or Ted Lindsay. Is the skill level equal? Absolutely. Is the feistiness / dirty play / "competitiveness" the same? Not even close. Don't confuse "competitive" with "feisty and dirty".

Someone said earlier that Jagr is and always will be the best European player, and that's so naive. You might make the argument that guys like Harvey and Jagr dominated like nobody will ever again, but they said the same stuff when Mario retired and how are the Penguins doing in the "Find A New Franchise Player" sweepstakes? I don't think Lidstrom is going to catch Doug Harvey and his 35 Norris trophies (probably nobody will), but that is just a testament to the fact that the league is every bit as -- if not more -- competitive now. Even the 4th line yahoos are bigger and stronger and faster, and it just isn't possible to dominate like you could 60 years ago -- especially if you don't have friends named Jacques, Bernie, Maurice, Dickie, Henri and Jean.

I don't think Lidstrom catches Orr / Harvey / Shore, not because it's impossible, but just because he doesn't quite do it. The rest of the list -- the Potvins, the Robinsons, the Bourques -- are all in play IMHO. Shore played in the 30's ... Harvey the 50's ... Orr the 70's ... chronologically speaking, we're due to put another name up there on that list, and Lidstrom and Bourque in the 90's are both very strong candidates.

1) Can he reach Doug Harvey's 7 Norris Trophies?
2) Can he actually become the 2nd best defenseman alltime? (after Orr)
3) Can he become the best european player ever in the NHL?

1) It's a longshot, but maybe.
2) If he completes Task #1.
3) He already is.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Why is it when someone says for example that Yzerman should've won the Conn Smythe in 2002, everyone calls it Canadian bias. But whenever anyone says something like Lidstrom should've won the Norris in 98 it's somehow zero bias in that statement?

Because pretty much everyone is in agreement on that matter. There are no sense in putting R.Blake ahead of Lidström that year. I agree that the Conn Smythe 02 is debatable(any of the Wings-Conn Smythe winners are debatable, IMO), but the Norris handed out to Blake in 97/98 was just dumb, IMO.

And i must repeat, are there any fans of Eddie Shore here, that actually saw him play? Live?

 

[VanIslander]

He's definitely below Raymond Bourque.

Even if Lidstrom gets another Conn Smythe, the way they're handing out that trophy these days it won't mean so much.

Lidstrom will end his career in the Top-10 of NHL defensemen all time. That is flattering.

 

[Corto]

Except that absolutly never happens in hockey. In baseball, sure. But in hockey, classic players are consistently put down, degraded and underrated. People rarely hype up players prior to Richard, many of the MVPs of the era are forgotten to time. Pre-WW2 players get no respect what so ever by the vast majority of hockey fans. It's an absolute farce to say they're overblown.

And your right, it is impossible to compair Shore to Lidstrom in the same way we compair Lidstrom to Neidermeyer. Which is why, like I said, I compair relative competition and dominance.

And, if Shore and Lidstrom can't be compaired, why are you not calling out those who say Lidstrom is better? I think it's alot more reasonable to side with the 4 time MVP than the 0 time MVP.

I'm not calling out anyone.

I just think it's a bit off to talk in absolutes when we've never seen Shore play a season... I don't think it's much of a question that there are more high-talent players than there were 70 years ago.

Shore might have been better than Lidstrom or Lidstrom might be better than Shore was, even compared to their peers.
Lidstrom not only won 5 Norris trophies but also finished runner-up ... what... 3 or 4 times - at least two of which he could/should have won.
And Shore won 4 Hart trophies. And I've never seen him play.

Awards can always be disputed. And most of the time they are. Why Pronger got it in 2000 and not Jagr, why Theodore not Iginla in 2002 (both Jagr and iginla won the Paersson awards in those years), etc etc etc.

I can't judge based on 4 awards Shore won. It's not like Lidstrom couldn't fill out a room with him hardware.

I don't think there's a NA bias, but I do think people tend to rely to much on nostalgia and most of all, I just think talking in absolutes in cases such as this is ridiculous.

Lidstrom >> Shore or SHore >> Lidstrom, I don't care. There simply isn't comparing them.
Unless there's someone here born in 1910 who'll take into account the changes to the game and level of competition, any comparison can be brushed aside.

 

[Birko19]

1) Can he reach Doug Harvey's 7 Norris Trophies?
2) Can he actually become the 2nd best defenseman alltime? (after Orr)
3) Can he become the best european player ever in the NHL?

1) He has a shot, will he? I hope so, but I think 1 more Norris is a better possiblity at this point.
2) 2nd best of all time? no, but I think he should be top 5 of all-time easily, sadly most fans will never make him a top 5 and keep him within the top 10 range, but a better question here is that can he become a top 5? well if his name was Chris Pronger or Scott Niedermayer he would probably be ahead or on par with Ray Bourque and in the top 5 already.
3) That's a debateable one of course but I think right now Hasek has the best chance to carry that title.

 

[pnep]

2) Can he actually become the 2nd best defenseman alltime? (after Orr)

NHL DEFs, "Career Value" (Total "HHOF Monitor" Points; Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Career|Seasons|HHOF Monitor
1|Ray "Bubba" Bourque |1979-01|22|4066,00
2|Bobby "Number Four" Orr |1966-79|12|3654,95
3|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore |1926-40|14|3506,80
4|Doug Harvey |1947-69|20|3353,15
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly |1947-67|20|2973,00
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey |1980-01|21|2276,95

7 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | 1991-06 | 14 | 2276,05

8|Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |1973-88|15|2189,35
9|Francis "King" Clancy |1921-37|16|2134,35
10|George "Buck" Boucher |1917-32|15|2097,40
11|Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote |1955-69|14|2074,70
12|Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |1927-47|20|2054,80
13|Chris "Cheli" Chelios |1983-06|22|2023,40
14|Sprague "Peg" Cleghorn |1918-28|10|1830,90
15|Brad Park |1968-85|17|1822,15
16|Larry "Big Bird" Robinson |1972-92|20|1810,65
17|Al "Chopper" Macinnis |1981-04|23|1781,95
18|Scott "Captain Crunch" Stevens |1982-04|22|1644,45
19|Earl "SI" Seibert |1931-46|15|1602,95
20|Emile "Butch" Bouchard |1941-56|15|1461,05

NHL DEFs, "Peak Value" ("HHOF Monitor" Points, best five seasons (they don’t have to be consecutive); Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Peak Value
1|Bobby "Number Four" Orr|2752,30
2|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore|1971,95
3|Ray "Bubba" Bourque|1655,00
4|Doug Harvey|1617,40
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly|1556,75
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey|1536,55
7 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | 1481,00
8|Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin|1460,50
9|Sprague "Peg" Cleghorn|1458,10
10|George "Buck" Boucher|1457,35
11|Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote|1371,90
12|Chris "Cheli" Chelios|1340,20
13|Aubrey "Dit" Clapper|1320,20
14|Francis "King" Clancy|1290,15
15|Brad Park|1253,15
16|Larry "Big Bird" Robinson |1247,15
17|Harry "Cammie" Cameron|1223,85
18|Al "Chopper" Macinnis|1218,90
19|Jack "Black Jack" Stewart|1108,65
20|Emile "Butch" Bouchard|1009,90

 

[kihei]

NHL DEFs, "Career Value" (Total "HHOF Monitor" Points; Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Career|Seasons|HHOF Monitor
1|Ray "Bubba" Bourque |1979-01|22|4066,00
2|Bobby "Number Four" Orr |1966-79|12|3654,95
3|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore |1926-40|14|3506,80
4|Doug Harvey |1947-69|20|3353,15
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly |1947-67|20|2973,00
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey |1980-01|21|2276,95

NHL DEFs, "Peak Value" ( "HHOF Monitor" Points , best five seasons (they don’t have to be consecutive); Seasons 1917-18/ 2005-06 )

#|Player|Total Best 5
1|Bobby "Number Four" Orr|2752,30
2|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore|1971,95
3|Ray "Bubba" Bourque|1655,00
4|Doug Harvey|1617,40
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly|1556,75
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey|1536,55

Nice to see Coffey finally get a mention. And a fairly impressive one at that.

 

[pnep]

3) Can he become the best european player ever in the NHL?

European NHL-ers, "Career Value" (Total "HHOF Monitor" Points; Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Country|POS|Career|Seasons|"HHOF Monitor" PTS
1|Jaromir "Jags" Jagr |Czech|RW|1990-06|15|3546,00
2|Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |Czech|G|1990-06|14|2585,00
3 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | Sweden | D | 1991-06 | 14 | 2276,05
4|Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri |Finland|RW|1980-98|17|1984,00
5|Teemu "The Finnish Flash" Selanne |Finland|RW|1992-06|13|1585,50
6|Peter "Foppa" Forsberg |Sweden|C|1994-06|11|1505,50
7|Sergei "FedEx" Fedorov |Russia|C|1990-06|15|1449,50
8|Pavel "The Russian Rocket" Bure |Russia|RW|1991-06|12|1221,00
9|Markus "Nazzy" Naslund |Sweden|LW|1993-06|12|1161,00
10|Mats "Sudden" Sundin |Sweden|C|1990-06|15|1077,50

European NHL-ers, "Peak Value" ("HHOF Monitor" Points, best five seasons (they don’t have to be consecutive); Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Country|POS|Peak Value
1|Jaromir "Jags" Jagr |Czech|RW|2267,50
2|Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |Czech|G|2139,00
3 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | Sweden | D | 1481,00
4|Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri |Finland|RW|1315,50
5|Teemu "The Finnish Flash" Selanne |Finland|RW|1230,50
6|Peter "Foppa" Forsberg |Sweden|C|1141,50
7|Markus "Nazzy" Naslund |Sweden|LW|1001,00
8|Pavel "The Russian Rocket" Bure |Russia|RW|985,50
9|Sergei "FedEx" Fedorov |Russia|C|906,50
10|Borje "King" Salming |Sweden|D|683,80

 

[BNHL]

NHL DEFs, "Career Value" (Total "HHOF Monitor" Points; Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Career|Seasons|HHOF Monitor
1|Ray "Bubba" Bourque |1979-01|22|4066,00
2|Bobby "Number Four" Orr |1966-79|12|3654,95
3|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore |1926-40|14|3506,80
4|Doug Harvey |1947-69|20|3353,15
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly |1947-67|20|2973,00
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey |1980-01|21|2276,95

7 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | 1991-06 | 14 | 2276,05

8|Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |1973-88|15|2189,35
9|Francis "King" Clancy |1921-37|16|2134,35
10|George "Buck" Boucher |1917-32|15|2097,40
11|Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote |1955-69|14|2074,70
12|Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |1927-47|20|2054,80
13|Chris "Cheli" Chelios |1983-06|22|2023,40
14|Sprague "Peg" Cleghorn |1918-28|10|1830,90
15|Brad Park |1968-85|17|1822,15
16|Larry "Big Bird" Robinson |1972-92|20|1810,65
17|Al "Chopper" Macinnis |1981-04|23|1781,95
18|Scott "Captain Crunch" Stevens |1982-04|22|1644,45
19|Earl "SI" Seibert |1931-46|15|1602,95
20|Emile "Butch" Bouchard |1941-56|15|1461,05

NHL DEFs, "Peak Value" ("HHOF Monitor" Points, best five seasons (they don’t have to be consecutive); Seasons 1917-18/2005-06)

#|Player|Peak Value
1|Bobby "Number Four" Orr|2752,30
2|Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore|1971,95
3|Ray "Bubba" Bourque|1655,00
4|Doug Harvey|1617,40
5|Leonard "Red" Kelly|1556,75
6|Paul "Coff" Coffey|1536,55
7 | Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | 1481,00
8|Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin|1460,50
9|Sprague "Peg" Cleghorn|1458,10
10|George "Buck" Boucher|1457,35
11|Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote|1371,90
12|Chris "Cheli" Chelios|1340,20
13|Aubrey "Dit" Clapper|1320,20
14|Francis "King" Clancy|1290,15
15|Brad Park|1253,15
16|Larry "Big Bird" Robinson |1247,15
17|Harry "Cammie" Cameron|1223,85
18|Al "Chopper" Macinnis|1218,90
19|Jack "Black Jack" Stewart|1108,65
20|Emile "Butch" Bouchard|1009,90

Any list that does not have Orr first is pure crap,I don't care how they figure it, and deserves disdain.

 

[Trottier]

I also don't believe that Lidstrom was as good a defenseman as Potvin....

I think Lidstrom is one of the greats of the game.

I also know that I'd take Denis Potvin over him eight days a week.

 

[Epsilon]

Chris Pronger seems to disagree with some of the posters here:

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=318439

So, is it fair to ask if Lidstrom is possibly the best defenseman to ever lace on a pair of skates? Yes.

“Compared to everybody that played?†Vigneault asks. “He has got to be up there. He has to be one of the top ones to ever play the game. Not as offensive, maybe, as some of the other guys. But, he’s up there as one of the most complete defenseman to play the game.â€

Agreed, says Pronger.

“To put that kind of resume together, he certainly has to rank in the top five all time,†Pronger says. “Certainly Bobby Orr would be No. 1 and you might look back at some of the older players of a different generation; but (Lidstrom) certainly would have to be at the top of this generation.

 

[hfboardsuser]

I think it's telling that the majority of those calling Lidstrom a top-three defender ever are Swedish posters.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

I think it's telling that the majority of those calling Lidstrom a top-three defender ever are Swedish posters.

But the rest of the world who dont have "Canadian bias"

 

[pnep]

Any list that does not have Orr first is pure crap,I don't care how they figure it, and deserves disdain.

check "Peak Value"...