VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
This thread was really inspired by the 2011 ATD Draft, after some discussions and 'friendly debates' that have taken place there. In the opinion of some, or even many, Milan Novy as well as Ivan Hlinka are being ranked too low compared to Vladimir Martinec (and to Vaclav Nedomansky and the Soviet stars). I agree on that, no problem. Some even feel that Novy, for example, should be rated higher than Martinec. That I don't agree with, but if based on stats, it's still a legitimate argument, I think.
Now, Vladimir Martinec, Ivan Hlinka and Milan Novy were born in 1949, 1950 and 1951, respectively. Not maybe quite the Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov of Czechoslovak hockey, as they weren't even regular linemates, but in many ways they were the faces of the Czech offense in the 1970s. Sure, Nedomansky and Jiri Holik were there too, but those two weren't really their contemporaries, having been born a few years earlier.
I have put together the key stats from Martinec's, Hlinka's and Novy's Czechoslovak league and international careers. Most of them can be found anywhere, and they are what they are - I have no interest in trying to change them. Still, this gave me the opportunity to put together their assist stats for the Czechoslovak league and the GP numbers for the major international tournaments. Special 'thank you' goes to poster Boy Wonder who provided me with the Czechoslovak league assist totals for all three players (after some confusion, I think we reached consensus
) and info on the players' Top 10 placements prior to the 1969-70 season.
The other main sources I've used:
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ceskoslovensk%C3%A1_hokejov%C3%A1_liga
http://hokej.snt.cz/index.html
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13865
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=12958
If you see something that you think is not quite right, let me know. Chances are that I won't even kill you!
CZECHOSLOVAK LEAGUE
Milan Novy (1968?-82; 1987-89)
474 goals in 633 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1976), 1st (1977), 1st (1978), 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 2nd (1974), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1980), 3rd (1973), 3rd (1979), 9th (1972), 10th (1988)
Ivan Hlinka (1967-81; 1986-87)
347 goals in 544 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1975), 2nd (1978), 2nd (1972), 3rd (1974), 3rd (1976), 4th (1977), 7th (1973), 8th (1969), 8th (1971), 9th (1981)
Vladimir Martinec (1967-81)
343 goals in 539 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1973), 2nd (1976), 2nd (1979), 3rd (1972), 4th (1974), 5th (1968), 6th (1971), 6th (1975), 9th (1977), 10th (1970)
Summary:
Player |GP |G |A |PTS |G/G |A/G |PTS/G |TOP 10, PTS
Milan Novy |633 |474 |355 |829 |0.74… |0.56… |1.30… |1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 9, 10 (12 times)
Ivan Hlinka |544 |347 |330 |677 |0.63… |0.60… |1.24… |1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 8, 9 (10 times)
Vladimir Martinec |539 |343 |262 |605 |0.63… |0.48… |1.12… |1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9, 10 (10 times)
NOTE: assists not recorded for Martinec in the 1968-69 season (he scored 23 goals [9th]). I don't know about Novy's assists before the 1970-71 season either.
Both Novy and Hlinka made a comeback in the Czechoslovak league in the late 1980s, and Novy even had a couple of fairly productive seasons, but maybe that tells more about the quality of the league than about Novy's form back then? Anyway, those points they scored are included here.
INTERNATIONAL
Vladimir Martinec (1969-81)
155 goals in 289 international games
Ivan Hlinka (1969-81)
132 goals in 256 international games
Milan Novy (1974-82)
120 goals in 211 international games
Scoring in World Championships/Winter Olympics/Canada Cups
Player (tournaments) |GP |G |A |PTS |G/G |A/G |PTS/G
Vladimir Martinec (11 WCs, 3 WOs, 1 CC) |120 |69 |66 |135 |0.57… |0.55 |1.12…
Ivan Hlinka (11 WCs, 2 WOs, 1 CC)|108 |53 |51 |104 |0.49... |0.47… |0.96…
Milan Novy (7 WCs, 2 WOs, 2 CCs)|85 |53 |38 |91 |0.62… |0.44… |1.07…
NOTE: Goals/assists/points I got from here: http://www.goironpigs.com/?cat=40, but the GP totals I counted myself, pondering between different sources; the margin of error is, say, 1-3 games. But what I've learned is that those official statistics - like WC stats, for example - are never 100 % correct either; it just is so, when you are dealing with numbers from the 1960s/'70s.
In the 1976 Winter Olympics, CSSR beat Poland initially 7-1, but due to Frantisek Pospisil "testing positive for doping", Czechoslovakia 'lost' the game 0-1, even though Poland didn't receive any points for it. This also means that the goals/assists scored by the Czechoslovak players in the game are not often credited, but I think that here they are part of the point totals; I have no problems with that, and it's only 1-3 points anyway.
I'm not sure if they have counted the points from the first round games in the 1972 and 1976 Olympics, but I would think so.
THOUGHTS
Indeed, I can understand that Martinec's superiority over Novy and Hlinka is very hard to sell to a person who puts a high value on the Czechoslovak league numbers. BUT if the international stats are added, and if even that isn't enough, the awards (Golden HOCKEY Sticks, WC All-Star selections), then Martinec beats Novy and Hlinka clearly IMO. I guess it is just a case of what you prefer to emphasize. Personally, I care more about their international careers, because that's how I came to know these players - seeing them play for Czechoslovakia.
So unless something drastic comes up, I will continue to rank them as so: Martinec, Hlinka, Novy. Hlinka over Novy might be hard to justify, but it's been like that 'forever' for me, and I feel that Hlinka was more of a key player on the national team. Of course, if it happened to be so that there are no real reasons for Novy's strangely weak reputation*, I might have to reconsider. The FACT remains, though, that he is criminally underrated.
* it has been suggested that he was "easily intimidated/rattled" in international games. I would also add his fairly short national team career (7-8 years compared to 11-12 of Martinec and Hlinka)
Now, Vladimir Martinec, Ivan Hlinka and Milan Novy were born in 1949, 1950 and 1951, respectively. Not maybe quite the Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov of Czechoslovak hockey, as they weren't even regular linemates, but in many ways they were the faces of the Czech offense in the 1970s. Sure, Nedomansky and Jiri Holik were there too, but those two weren't really their contemporaries, having been born a few years earlier.
I have put together the key stats from Martinec's, Hlinka's and Novy's Czechoslovak league and international careers. Most of them can be found anywhere, and they are what they are - I have no interest in trying to change them. Still, this gave me the opportunity to put together their assist stats for the Czechoslovak league and the GP numbers for the major international tournaments. Special 'thank you' goes to poster Boy Wonder who provided me with the Czechoslovak league assist totals for all three players (after some confusion, I think we reached consensus
) and info on the players' Top 10 placements prior to the 1969-70 season.The other main sources I've used:
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ceskoslovensk%C3%A1_hokejov%C3%A1_liga
http://hokej.snt.cz/index.html
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13865
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=12958
If you see something that you think is not quite right, let me know. Chances are that I won't even kill you!
CZECHOSLOVAK LEAGUE
Milan Novy (1968?-82; 1987-89)
474 goals in 633 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1976), 1st (1977), 1st (1978), 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 2nd (1974), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1980), 3rd (1973), 3rd (1979), 9th (1972), 10th (1988)
Ivan Hlinka (1967-81; 1986-87)
347 goals in 544 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1975), 2nd (1978), 2nd (1972), 3rd (1974), 3rd (1976), 4th (1977), 7th (1973), 8th (1969), 8th (1971), 9th (1981)
Vladimir Martinec (1967-81)
343 goals in 539 games
Top 10 (points): 1st (1973), 2nd (1976), 2nd (1979), 3rd (1972), 4th (1974), 5th (1968), 6th (1971), 6th (1975), 9th (1977), 10th (1970)
Summary:
Milan Novy |633 |474 |355 |829 |0.74… |0.56… |1.30… |1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 9, 10 (12 times)
Ivan Hlinka |544 |347 |330 |677 |0.63… |0.60… |1.24… |1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 8, 9 (10 times)
Vladimir Martinec |539 |343 |262 |605 |0.63… |0.48… |1.12… |1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9, 10 (10 times)
NOTE: assists not recorded for Martinec in the 1968-69 season (he scored 23 goals [9th]). I don't know about Novy's assists before the 1970-71 season either.
Both Novy and Hlinka made a comeback in the Czechoslovak league in the late 1980s, and Novy even had a couple of fairly productive seasons, but maybe that tells more about the quality of the league than about Novy's form back then? Anyway, those points they scored are included here.
INTERNATIONAL
Vladimir Martinec (1969-81)
155 goals in 289 international games
Ivan Hlinka (1969-81)
132 goals in 256 international games
Milan Novy (1974-82)
120 goals in 211 international games
Scoring in World Championships/Winter Olympics/Canada Cups
Vladimir Martinec (11 WCs, 3 WOs, 1 CC) |120 |69 |66 |135 |0.57… |0.55 |1.12…
Ivan Hlinka (11 WCs, 2 WOs, 1 CC)|108 |53 |51 |104 |0.49... |0.47… |0.96…
Milan Novy (7 WCs, 2 WOs, 2 CCs)|85 |53 |38 |91 |0.62… |0.44… |1.07…
NOTE: Goals/assists/points I got from here: http://www.goironpigs.com/?cat=40, but the GP totals I counted myself, pondering between different sources; the margin of error is, say, 1-3 games. But what I've learned is that those official statistics - like WC stats, for example - are never 100 % correct either; it just is so, when you are dealing with numbers from the 1960s/'70s.
In the 1976 Winter Olympics, CSSR beat Poland initially 7-1, but due to Frantisek Pospisil "testing positive for doping", Czechoslovakia 'lost' the game 0-1, even though Poland didn't receive any points for it. This also means that the goals/assists scored by the Czechoslovak players in the game are not often credited, but I think that here they are part of the point totals; I have no problems with that, and it's only 1-3 points anyway.
I'm not sure if they have counted the points from the first round games in the 1972 and 1976 Olympics, but I would think so.
THOUGHTS
Indeed, I can understand that Martinec's superiority over Novy and Hlinka is very hard to sell to a person who puts a high value on the Czechoslovak league numbers. BUT if the international stats are added, and if even that isn't enough, the awards (Golden HOCKEY Sticks, WC All-Star selections), then Martinec beats Novy and Hlinka clearly IMO. I guess it is just a case of what you prefer to emphasize. Personally, I care more about their international careers, because that's how I came to know these players - seeing them play for Czechoslovakia.
So unless something drastic comes up, I will continue to rank them as so: Martinec, Hlinka, Novy. Hlinka over Novy might be hard to justify, but it's been like that 'forever' for me, and I feel that Hlinka was more of a key player on the national team. Of course, if it happened to be so that there are no real reasons for Novy's strangely weak reputation*, I might have to reconsider. The FACT remains, though, that he is criminally underrated.
* it has been suggested that he was "easily intimidated/rattled" in international games. I would also add his fairly short national team career (7-8 years compared to 11-12 of Martinec and Hlinka)
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