Not Drafting Shane Wright Discussion - So the Slafkovsky thread can be about Slafkovsky

[Frank Drebin]

Like all the good reasons teams passed on Caufield before us.

Or like when Ottawa got laughed out of the building for taking Tkachuk when Zadina was still available.

It's funny how everyone brings up caufield and no one remembers the countess draft fallers, steals if you will, that our moronic team picked over the past decade.

If you look at our 2012 draft, every pick after 3 was a player that was slated to go higher.

Collberg and Dalton thrower were first round talents.

Josh ho sang was supposed to be a 20s pick

Pujularvi was a no brainer at 3, what was Columbus thinking taking pld

There are countless more, the ratio is probably 5:1 of fallers that didn't turn out to those that did

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Or like when Ottawa got laughed out of the building for taking Tkachuk when Zadina was still available.

It's funny how everyone brings up caufield and no one remembers the countess draft fallers, steals if you will, that our moronic team picked over the past decade.

If you look at our 2012 draft, every pick after 3 was a player that was slated to go higher.

Collberg and Dalton thrower were first round talents.

Josh ho sang was supposed to be a 20s pick

Pujularvi was a no brainer at 3, what was Columbus thinking taking pld

There are countless more, the ratio is probably 5:1 of fallers that didn't turn out to those that did

That's a whole lot of narrative building to try to justify how Wright will bust because he fell three spots in the draft.

And no, not everyone laughed at Ottawa. I kept saying how Zadina would bust and teams should stay away from him.

Oh and @Andy, try to stay consistent. Yesterday, you said no one knows how the picks will turn out and then you love this post from someone who picks on Wright for falling three spots. Double standard much?

 

[Frank Drebin]

That's a whole lot of narrative building to try to justify how Wright will bust because he fell three spots in the draft.

And no, not everyone laughed at Ottawa. I kept saying how Zadina would bust and teams should stay away from him.

Not narrative, history.

Show me one projected 1oa who fell out of favor prior to the draft who proved the scouts wrong.

Just one.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Not narrative, history.

Show me one projected 1oa who fell out of favor prior to the draft who proved the scouts wrong.

Just one.

It rarely ever happens a first falls. He fell three spots, not 10, not 20, not 30. To find a similar situation would be a very small sample and would prove absolutely nothing.

It's narrative building no matter how you slice it, no matter if you deny it.

You can repeat "history" "facts", your argument ommits the context of rarity and small samples.

You want to avoid the Caufield example who fell close to 5-10 spots, as if teams who pass on a player "have good reasons". No they don't always have good reasons.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It rarely ever happens a first falls. He fell three spots, not 10, not 20, not 30. To find a similar situation would be a very small sample and would prove absolutely nothing.

It's narrative building no matter how you slice it, no matter if you deny it.

You can repeat "history" "facts", your argument ommits the context of rarity and small samples.

You want to avoid the Caufield example who fell close to 5-10 spots, as if teams who pass on a player "have good reasons". No they don't always have good reasons.

But you said, you agreed with passing on Zadina because you knew he was going to bust. Good reasons for that?

Why zadina but not Wright?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

But you said, you agreed with passing on Zadina because you knew he was going to bust. Good reasons for that?

Why zadina but not Wright?

Because I saw a huge red flag in Zadina, he always did the same things from the same places, he lacked diversity and play reading. Wright is far more dynamic and is very good at reading plays and playmaking. It seems to not register on your radar that despite being used as a scoring threat in his rookie season, Wright changed his game and concentrated on playmaking, doubling his assist ratio in his second season, while only scoring 7 goals less. He was also one of the league's premiere puck retrievers. That's a lot more versatility then I've ever seen from Zadina.

Pretty sure Wright will be a top 6 center.

 

[Garo]

Didn't Cody Hodgson also fall in his draft year?

He was hyped, and amounted to jack shit.

Nah that's really not fair, guy was a decent player before he got the worst luck of all bad lucks with injuries and a genetic disease. Didn't really fall either too, he was ranked ninth in NA.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Because I saw a huge red flag in Zadina, he always did the same things from the same places, he lacked diversity and play reading. Wright is far more dynamic and is very good at reading plays and playmaking. It seems to not register on your radar that despite being used as a scoring threat in his rookie season, Wright changed his game and concentrated on playmaking, doubling his assist ratio in his second season, while only scoring 7 goals less. He was also one of the league's premiere puck retrievers. That's a lot more versatility then I've ever seen from Zadina.

Pretty sure Wright will be a top 6 center.

Ok same old stuff, and if Wright busts in Seattle it will be because of coaching decisions and poor development. My body is ready.

It amazes me how posters here completely discredit the combined thousands of scouting hours watching these top prospects, hours of interviews with the player and player references and dismiss it as "the old boys club didn't like his interview"

He fell for good reason. Not saying he won't be an nhl player, or even a top 6 center, but Montreal was not the only team that liked another player better.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Ok same old stuff, and if Wright busts in Seattle it will be because of coaching decisions and poor development. My body is ready.

It amazes me how posters here completely discredit the combined thousands of scouting hours watching these top prospects, hours of interviews with the player and player references and dismiss it as "the old boys club didn't like his interview"

He fell for good reason. Not saying he won't be an nhl player, or even a top 6 center, but Montreal was not the only team that liked another player better.

NJ GM after picking Nemec said they felt the top players in the draft were pretty much all equal. In his own words, they went for need.

You're pretending to know their train of thought. You're also pretending to yourself that the choice was easy and clear for all of them as if Wright wasn't close. They simply picked who they thought was the better player. Reality is a lot more complicated than that. It's a gamble for all of them. Sometimes, it's not about the player not being picked, but more about the other player showing something that falls into what the picker prioritizes.

Who knows why the Yotes picked Cooley over Wright. They've been outspoken about going for players that actually want to play in Arizona, something they've had major problems with. We also know Cooley didn't seem comfortable in front of the cameras in the pre draft interviews. Maybe they thought Cooley was simply better. Or maybe they thought both were close, but found more willingness to play there from Cooley in interviews.

Point is we just don't know and trying to use a 3 spot drop at the top of the draft without intimate details of the true reasons why is just fodder for whatever narrative you want to build.

 

[DAChampion]

Nah that's really not fair, guy was a decent player before he got the worst luck of all bad lucks with injuries and a genetic disease. Didn't really fall either too, he was ranked ninth in NA.

Ok that's fair.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

NJ GM after picking Nemec said they felt the top players in the draft were pretty much all equal. In his own words, they went for need.

You're pretending to know their train of thought. You're also pretending to yourself that the choice was easy and clear for all of them as if Wright wasn't close. They simply picked who they thought was the better player. Reality is a lot more complicated than that. It's a gamble for all of them. Sometimes, it's not about the player not being picked, but more about the other player showing something that falls into what the picker prioritizes.

Who knows why the Yotes picked Cooley over Wright. They've been outspoken about going for players that actually want to play in Arizona, something they've had major problems with. We also know Cooley didn't seem comfortable in front of the cameras in the pre draft interviews. Maybe they thought Cooley was simply better. Or maybe they thought both were close, but found more willingness to play there from Cooley in interviews.

Point is we just don't know and trying to use a 3 spot drop at the top of the draft without intimate details of the true reasons why is just fodder for whatever narrative you want to build.

That was a good post. Well done job. I'm like you, the drafting day operate on a sort of gambling and I guess teams pick for different reasons and they have internal discussions with 2 or 3 clans arguing. Maybe the 3 first teams were wrong and Wright was the best choice, we'll find out in 4 years. Maybe Gauthier will be the best player, we're not sure of anything.

 

[River Meadow]

Are you not nervous about nemec becoming a better player than slafkovsky

I'm worried about Brad Lambert becoming a better player than Slafbustsky

 

[Mandala]

Ok same old stuff, and if Wright busts in Seattle it will be because of coaching decisions and poor development. My body is ready.

It amazes me how posters here completely discredit the combined thousands of scouting hours watching these top prospects, hours of interviews with the player and player references and dismiss it as "the old boys club didn't like his interview"

He fell for good reason. Not saying he won't be an nhl player, or even a top 6 center, but Montreal was not the only team that liked another player better.

Nothing will change your mind so let's see how it plays out for Wright, Cooley, Slafkovsky and Nemec.

 

[Andy]

That's a whole lot of narrative building to try to justify how Wright will bust because he fell three spots in the draft.

And no, not everyone laughed at Ottawa. I kept saying how Zadina would bust and teams should stay away from him.

Oh and @Andy, try to stay consistent. Yesterday, you said no one knows how the picks will turn out and then you love this post from someone who picks on Wright for falling three spots. Double standard much?

There is nothing contradictory about me liking his post. In fact it’s consistent with what I’ve been saying as we have to wait and see. He gave great examples of how peoples expectations of a prospect don’t always match how they develop.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nothing will change your mind so let's see how it plays out for Wright, Cooley, Slafkovsky and Nemec.

Sure, sounds great.

 

[durojean]

One comparable was the 2007 draft. Angelo Esposito was highly touted as the presumptive #1
in the summer. There were rumblings in the fall that he maybe wasn’t as good as people believed. But he still made it as #1 NA skater for the CSS mid-term rankings!!! He dropped out of the picture in the spring.

JVR was number 2 or 3 all year but people didn’t seem to take him seriously as a #1. With Esposito gone, Turris took the pole position and was the big name in the spring. He came number one on TSN’s spring rankings and was #1 NA skater on the CSS final-ranking. But at the end, it was Kane that came out of nowhere with his monster OHL season, slowly rose up the rankings and finally popped up as #1 on Bobby Margarita’s final rankings.

Draft: 1- Kane, 2- JVR, 3- Turris…. 20-Esposito

The 2 guys that fell (Turris and Esposito) ended up being bad picks).

Wright and Esposito are not comparable at all…

Esposito had a big drop in production the year before and had a really bad draft year.

Wright still had a good draft year based on any metrics.

 

[Runner77]

 

[Scriptor]

But you can do the same thing for Wright and his case is much more strong.

After the christmas break he produced at a 1.64 ppg..

Are you sure we should cherry pick numbers?

The numbers don't stack up, regardless, one played in a defense-first Liga against men, in a lesser role, plus with lesser players on his team and the other played mostly against teenagers in a more offensively driven league, all of that in a primary role for his team with the best players on it.

I would have liked to see how the larger-bodied yet skilled Slafkovsky would have killed the OHL?

 

[Scriptor]

i was big on Wright and very disappointed about the pick but Slaf his growing on me and i think he quickly becomes a fan favorite anyways hes the Hab now not Shane so go Juraj

I actually wanna buy a jersey but my last 3 jerseys were Subban,Galchenyuk and then Kotkaniemi i legit have zero luck with jerseys

What are you talking about? They are all collectors' items now

 

[Scriptor]

Context absolutely matters. Context like Slaf has by far the lowest Liiga production of any top Liiga draftees we've seen in modern history... and he went 1OA ffs. Context like Slaf was hot for half a year, and we've seen many late-risers bust. Context like the Habs are awful at developing players, and especially awful at developing offensive talent.

I want him to succeed but this is the "complaining" thread so I'll complain here and get it off my chest. I genuinely think it was a risk where they shouldn't have made a risk, I also think Wright's issues are more easily resolved than Slafkovsky's bizarre inability to put up points in his league play.

To be fair, maybe you can put that in the conditional past tense, at least (i.e, have been)? There's a new development team, a new coach and an openly disclosed period where development will be at the forefront for the Habs. I'll bet on better player development...

 

[Scriptor]

Why didn't Slaf want it so badly when he was with his team in Liiga? That's a red flag to me.

So far I've been told that he was (1) in a sheltered role (need to see his TOI and such for that, but I'll buy it for now) and (2) he was playing on a too defensive team.

Are these strong enough excuses to make up for his exceptionally low Liiga production? Remains to be seen...

You're projecting and grasping at the same time on this one.

 

[Scriptor]

I don't know why nobody mentions that Slafkovsky went to a foreign league, in a foreign country, as a teenager to play against men. That the team he played for and the league in general, puts a big emphasis on defense and veteran players are heavily favoured. Comparing his stats to native Finnish hockey players who did not have to face that many adjustments at once, seems unfair to me.

That would be context and often affects the arguments being bolstered. If you recall all the talk from Hughes about questioning Slafkovsky about moving away from home at 15 to play in another country with no billet family, living on his own, you have to see how much they valued this part of the tale surrounding Slafkovsky.

Great point!

Still love to the answer to the following question:

Q: How did you cook your meals away from your family, living on your own?

A: With a stove.

 

[PavelBrendl]

Didn't Cody Hodgson also fall in his draft year?

He was hyped, and amounted to jack shit.

Health issues ruined his career.

 

[Scriptor]

This is a tad bit harsh, considering many scouts rated him top3 — probably a majority of scouts had him top2.

But so far there has been no explanation for his bad Liiga production other than saying he was too young/under-prepped early in the season and blossomed as the year went on… culminating in a 0.39 PPG in the playoffs.

Eh.

Let’s see what training camp brings

Answer, in French: Mauvais encadrement, meaning, Slafkovsky was left to himself and it took a while to settle in. That he improved while being altogether on his own is a testimony to his perseverance, a good quality for a youngster.

Slafkovsky, himself, said that he was given opportunities by Ramsay and asked to take advantage of those. Showing confidence in a player can bring about self-confidence for that player and makes them react and make decisions quicker, all in high level leagues where fractions of seconds are the difference between okay, good and great.

Nobody needs to believe this, but it looks entirely credible a tale to me.

Playing under a coach that benches you (or lowers your ice time) if you take chances and make a defensive mistake while trying to create some offense will tend to, at the very least, limit your offensive forays and simplify your plays, limiting the creative aspect of your game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TPS coach didn't look at the size of Slafkovsky and imagine a game that wasn't suited to get the most out of a big boy who can play a finesse, skilled game?

Beyond that, the fact he was shuffled in and out of the lineup absolutely must've prevented him from getting quality minutes, at least early on. That his growing reputation from the olympics brought him a greater role with the team later on in the season just points to that.

 

[Scriptor]

Because I saw a huge red flag in Zadina, he always did the same things from the same places, he lacked diversity and play reading. Wright is far more dynamic and is very good at reading plays and playmaking. It seems to not register on your radar that despite being used as a scoring threat in his rookie season, Wright changed his game and concentrated on playmaking, doubling his assist ratio in his second season, while only scoring 7 goals less. He was also one of the league's premiere puck retrievers. That's a lot more versatility then I've ever seen from Zadina.

Pretty sure Wright will be a top 6 center.

I don't think anyone (many) doubts wright will become a top-6 C. Some argued his floor was that of a 2nd line C. Good for the kid. Well see if he has the drive to be more than that?

Wright was a safe pick, with a high floor and a good ceiling. Was he the better pick? Only time will tell.