Norris Finalists: Doughty, Hedman, Subban

[Nadal On Clay]

As much as I hate him, Hedman should take it..

 

[Bjorn Le]

Happy Carlson wasn't nominated.

This should be Hedman.

 

[RickP]

Preds fan saying I'm surpirised PK is a finalist. He was good this year but didn't seem Norris level good. Guess there wasn't a lot of great candidates.

He was on fire around the All Star game. He was pretty much the favorite in early February and people started talking about him more and more, especially with Hedman being injured at that point. The last 2 months of the season, his play was average though, but his great run from December to February was enough to keep him in the discussion. I doubt he'll win though, Doughty and Hedman are probably 1st and 2nd (or vice versa).

On a side note, Subban and Ekholm have been getting better lately, they were dominant against MacKinnon last night. They looked like the dominant pairing from last year's playoffs. Let's see if they can keep up that level of play.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I'd bet every cent I own at 0.5:1.0 odds that Hedman wins. He's due in the voters' minds.

It's his turn.

 

[Evil Janney]

From Jon Rosen, who will obviously have a team focus, but does good summaries:

Doughty a Norris finalist (again) - LA Kings Insider

quick glance at some stats that show how close it is:

CF%Rel
Doughty: +4.39%
Hedman: 0.38%
Subban: 0.30%
Primary Points/60
Doughty: .53
Hedman: .89
Subban: .89
Corsi +/-
Doughty: 158
Hedman: 93
Subban: 125
xGF%
Doughty: 50.9%
Hedman: 50.8%
Subban: 53.1%
Zone Starts Ratio
Doughty: 49.0%
Hedman: 54.3%
Subban: 43.2%
Shots Against/60
Doughty: 28.7 (LAK: 30.9 SA/GP)
Hedman: 32.9 (TBL: 32.7 SA/GP)
Subban: 30.7 (NSH 32.4 SA/GP)
Scoring Chances For/60 (via Natural Stat Trick)
Doughty: 28.3
Hedman: 31.7
Subban: 26.1
Scoring Chances Against/60 (via Natural Stat Trick)
Doughty: 26.8
Hedman: 27.6
Subban: 27.5

You responding to like 3-4 posts in about 20 MINS on the SAME thread! THAT doesn't seem insecure (at all)!! #fakenews #somuchcollusion

Most of the stats you mentioned above, are not dictated by one person. Scoring chances, zone starts, and possession times are based on a collective effort by the team, not just Drew Doughty. The reality is that Hedman lead a weaker defensive corps compared to Nashville and Los Angeles. Hedman is the one who had to take on versatile roles because there were limited secondary options to be a shut down, puke moving, or offensive threat. Credit to Hedman is deserved where it is due.

No one is saying that your fanboy-dom of Doughty is not warranted. Doughty was easily one of the best in the league this year. But, Victor Hedman provided results and was a big reason why his team achieved greater success than the Kings.

 

[snipes]

Should be Doughty

 

[ulvvf]

Would not surprise me if the extremtly overrated doughty won it. Then he has 2 norris despite not having any season where he has even been remotly close to be a top 3 d-men in the league.

None of them should win it, Carlsson should win it since he won the scoring league.

Norris, hart, selke is joke trophies, just arbitrary and biased. why not change that so they can be taken seriously? Have a clear neutral stats formula that is set at the beginning of the season for who will win. More neutral. Vote base will always make it 100% arbitrary, biased and a joke, and the critera just shifts every year to suits their favorite player. If you have a stats forumla every player has more of a fair change, no favorites getting it easier, it will be based on what they do on the ice instead of just hype, rumors, passport etc. As of now, what they do on the ice do not matter much.

If you do not want just points to be the only critera that is fine. But it should still be based on facts and absolutly not votes.

For example it could look like something like this, the point is not that is shall be this exact stats formula, but just that is should be a stats formula, so it becomes more neutral and is based in facts rather than opinions.


Playoff spot 40p
Division winner 10
Conf-winner 10p
League winner 10p (so that means if the player have been on a team that wins the league, he will get totally 70p added from this)
1 goal = 10p
1 Assist = 9p
1 + = 0.5p
1- = -0.5
1 shot blocked =0.25p
1 BP with no goals against = 0.2p
Game winner goal =0.25p
Game winner assist = 0.25p
1 Takeaway = 0.35p
1 hit = 0.1p
1 won faceoff = 0.1p

etc

 

[Price is Wright]

I'm of course biased, but I think it's a tight race. 5-6 guys who could all be in the argument. If I'm not being a homer I'd go with Hedman.

 

[Little Psycho]

Wat.

Doughty faced the toughest matchups all year, toughest zone starts, and played the most minutes in the NHL by more than 100...

Hedman has a great case, but it's not because Doughty got soft minutes.

Some just love downplaying Doughty. When Doughty is great it's because he has a great supporting cast but when Hedman is great it's because he supports his teammates. f***ing amazing

 

[Andy6]

Would not surprise me if the extremtly overrated doughty won it. Then he has 2 norris despite not having any season where he has even been remotly close to be a top 3 d-men in the league.

None of them should win it, Carlsson should win it since he won the scoring league.

Norris, hart, selke is joke trophies, just arbitrary and biased. why not change that so they can be taken seriously? Have a clear neutral stats formula that is set at the beginning of the season for who will win. More neutral. Vote base will always make it 100% arbitrary, biased and a joke, and the critera just shifts every year to suits their favorite player. If you have a stats forumla every player has more of a fair change, no favorites getting it easier, it will be based on what they do on the ice instead of just hype, rumors, passport etc. As of now, what they do on the ice do not matter much.

If you do not want just points to be the only critera that is fine. But it should still be based on facts and absolutly not votes.

For example it could look like something like this, the point is not that is shall be this exact stats formula just that is should be a stats formula, so it becomes more neutral and is based in facts rather than opinions.


Playoff spot 40p
Division winner 10
Conf-winner 10p
League winner 10p (so that means if the player have been on a team that wins the league, he will get totally 70p added from this)
1 goal = 10p
1 Assist = 9p
1 + = 0.5p
1- = -0.5
1 shot blocked =0.25p
1 BP with no goals against = 0.2p
Game winner goal =0.25p
Game winner assist = 0.25p
1 Takeaway = 0.35p
1 hit = 0.1p
1 won faceoff = 0.1p

etc

It’s just an “opinion” that the combination of statistics that you choose for your formula will identify the best player.

 

[Little Psycho]

Watch the Kings plenty. One of my favourite teams.
Hedman is better than Doughty.

My problem is that you said easily which means obviously you haven't watched him enough.

 

[kingsfan28]

Jones and Burns completely robbed of their 1 and 2 nomination.

Burns and his -16 don't belong in there at all. Jones' late season push wasn't enough.

 

[Mrb1p]

Burns and his -16 don't belong in there at all. Jones' late season push wasn't enough.

Oh look were using plus minus to prove a point.

I got one easy stat for you, doughty and Subban together have only 50 more shots than Burns.

 

[kingsfan28]

You responding to like 3-4 posts in about 20 MINS on the SAME thread! THAT doesn't seem insecure (at all)!! #fakenews #somuchcollusion

Most of the stats you mentioned above, are not dictated by one person. Scoring chances, zone starts, and possession times are based on a collective effort by the team, not just Drew Doughty. The reality is that Hedman lead a weaker defensive corps compared to Nashville and Los Angeles. Hedman is the one who had to take on versatile roles because there were limited secondary options to be a shut down, puke moving, or offensive threat. Credit to Hedman is deserved where it is due.

No one is saying that your fanboy-dom of Doughty is not warranted. Doughty was easily one of the best in the league this year. But, Victor Hedman provided results and was a big reason why his team achieved greater success than the Kings.

Both teams made the playoffs, one was a favorite and the other wasn't picked to make it. So Doughty had nothing to do with the Kings success too?

 

[kingsfan28]

Oh look were using plus minus to prove a point.

I got one easy stat for you, doughty and Subban together have only 50 more shots than Burns.

For a defenseman, it's a very valid stat. More so than a guy who shoots a lot. You'd honestly vote for a defenseman for the top award who's -16? He was on a winning team , yet still managed to have one of the worst +/- in the league for a reigning Norris winner.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Oh look were using plus minus to prove a point.

I got one easy stat for you, doughty and Subban together have only 50 more shots than Burns.

well, that's a fresh take at least.

+/- is awful! SHOTS are where its at!

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Jones and Burns completely robbed of their 1 and 2 nomination.

Jones deserved it, Burns absolutely did not. His -16 are absolutely indicative of his terrible defensive play which cost the Sharks many big games at critical moments. If Burns' defensive performance this season was merely league average, the Sharks would have challenged Vegas for the Division title at the very least, and would likely have challenged Nashville for the President's Trophy.

This is coming from a Sharks fan who loves Burns. He was closer to deserving a Hart Trophy and Ted Lindsay win last year than he is to deserving a Norris nomination.

 

[Mrb1p]

He

For a defenseman, it's a very valid stat. More so than a guy who shoots a lot. You'd honestly vote for a defenseman for the top award who's -16? He was on a winning team , yet still managed to have one of the worst +/- in the league for a reigning Norris winner.

Played on a team that has a plus 20 differential, Subban and Hedman played on plus 60s.

 

[Mrb1p]

Jones deserved it, Burns absolutely did not. His -16 are absolutely indicative of his terrible defensive play which cost the Sharks many big games at critical moments. If Burns' defensive performance this season was merely league average, the Sharks would have challenged Vegas for the Division title at the very least, and would likely have challenged Nashville for the President's Trophy.

This is coming from a Sharks fan who loves Burns. He was closer to deserving a Hart Trophy and Ted Lindsay win last year than he is to deserving a Norris nomination.

Dont believe this at all. Ive watched Burns carry the Sharks offensively over and over, his zone entries, exits, etc... hes a dream on skate and the only thing that kept him from another norris, imo, is his abysimal shooting %.

 

[EpochLink]

I think this is Hedman's trophy this time around.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It still feels like this isn't quite the same as the old days. I mean, if it was Lidstrom or Bourque or some of the other past guys who dominated Norris rankings, to me you could not possibly watch one of their games and not be impressed with how they controlled the game. Pretty much every game, ALL season long.

Now, Subban is the one of these three I watched consistently enough to be sure, and to me he had a stretch of 2-3 months where maybe he consistently played "Norris level", from maybe December to February. But you could watch other chunks of the season and he didn't stand out to nearly the same extent. (And while I still think he's overall the best of the Nashville D, there were for sure stretches where others were better).

I didn't watch Doughty or Hedman anywhere near as much. But I get the sense there is a little of the same thing with them. Not in the sense of the internal competition from their teammates. But just from the sense that they didn't always consistently stand out or control games at a full-on "traditional Norris level". They had better and worse stretches.

Nobody really put together a full season of consistently Norris-level play in a traditional sense, IMHO. These guys had their games and their stretches of it, more than anybody else and captured enough attention from those stretches to get their votes.

 

[Mrb1p]

well, that's a fresh take at least.

+/- is awful! SHOTS are where its at!

Its exactly what i said it is, nice defensive post though.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Dont believe this at all. Ive watched Burns carry the Sharks offensively over and over, his zone entries, exits, etc... hes a dream on skate and the only thing that kept him from another norris, imo, is his abysimal shooting %.

He would probably this Norris if he was a +10 tbh. If his shooting percentage was at his career average, he would have 88 points. The NHL already showed they will pick a 60 point Doughty for Norris over an 80+ point defenseman with an awful +/-.

It still feels like this isn't quite the same as the old days. I mean, if it was Lidstrom or Bourque or some of the other past guys who dominated Norris rankings, to me you could not possibly watch one of their games and not be impressed with how they controlled the game. Pretty much every game, ALL season long.

Now, Subban is the one of these three I watched consistently enough to be sure, and to me he had a stretch of 2-3 months where maybe he consistently played "Norris level", from maybe December to February. But you could watch other chunks of the season and he didn't stand out to nearly the same extent. (And while I still think he's overall the best of the Nashville D, there were for sure stretches where others were better).

I didn't watch Doughty or Hedman anywhere near as much. But I get the sense there is a little of the same thing with them. Not in the sense of the internal competition from their teammates. But just from the sense that they didn't always consistently stand out or control games at a full-on "traditional Norris level". They had better and worse stretches.

Nobody really put together a full season of consistently Norris-level play in a traditional sense, IMHO. These guys had their games and their stretches of it, more than anybody else and captured enough attention from those stretches to get their votes.

Absolutely. Burns and Karlsson had down years, which is the primary reason for this.

 

[Mrb1p]

He would probably this Norris if he was a +10 tbh. If his shooting percentage was at his career average, he would have 88 points. The NHL already showed they will pick a 60 point Doughty for Norris over an 80+ point defenseman with an awful +/-.



Absolutely. Burns and Karlsson had down years, which is the primary reason for this.

Did it? Karlsson has those years on non playoff teams, thats the main factor IMO.

 

[Voight]

DUE DOUGHTY AMIRITE??? LOLOLOLOL

Anyways, should go to D^2 or Hedman, with my pick being Heds. He should've won it over 4th forward Brent Burns last year, but we all know how excited the PHWA gets over point totals and how they like to give it to the best offensive defensemen.