Norris Discussion: Weber

[Nashville Transplant]

There was a tweet this morning that put a lot of Norris talk into perspective:

Cörey Masisak ‏@cmasisak22

How I'd line up Norris: 1 Chara 2 Keith 3 Karlsson 4 Pietrangelo 5 Giordano 6 Hedman 7 Vlasic 8 Subban 9 McDonagh 10 Doughty 11 Weber 12 OEL

So... a couple observations:

1. He didn't include Suter in his top 12, and it's apparent to me that Suter will be one of the 3 finalists when the NHL reveal their award choices.

2. It's a damn crowded field. Fowler (ANA) and Niskanen (PIT) would round out the top 15 in my opinion.


It would be pretty hard not to include Chara in the top 3, and I'm partial to Drew Doughty because I think he really affects the play on the ice for both teams when he's asserting himself (and he does, for much of the 26 minutes he gets -on the average- nightly)

So, do you REALLY think Weber has a shot? Personally, I think it's about a 0% chance he'd be in the top 3, and about a 10% chance he'd be in the top 5.

Care to post your top 5?

Here's mine:

1. Chara
2. Suter
3. Doughty
4. Keith
5. Pietrangelo

Click to read more...

 

[I Will Son]

That dudes list is awful.


My top 3

Weber
Keith
Pietrangelo

 

[101st_fan]

Three Norris winners had a minus rating ... one was Lidstrom's final award. Very slim chance that he wins it based on his +/- and the fact he's enjoyed one statistically dominant month (January) after he struggled to post points at ES for the first three months.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Outside chance of top 3, but he won't win it.

You really expecting an objective discussion of this around these parts though?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Unless Boston can continue playing this well through the playoffs, I'm picking Keith to win. Either Suter or Karlsson rounds out the top-3.

My personal choice has Weber in the running.

 

[Soundgarden]

Keith and Karlsson will be candidates for sure, after that I think it's a toss up between Chara, Weber, Pietranglo or Suter. Keith would be my pick.

 

[NSH615]

He has 0 chance of winning, primarily because he is in Nashville. Had he been on any team north or east of here minus the 2 Florida teams he would most certainly be in the running.

 

[Drake744]

If we were good this year, I think he could easily win it. He may be in Nashville but he got his time in the spotlight during the Olympics, so he's on peoples radar. But because he's not playing in meaningful games and his +/- is suffering (rightfully), he won't.

 

[Enjoy i24 Traffic]

Do you play in a large market and or a canadian market? Are you marketable? Are you alive?

Here, have a Norris.

 

[Gnashville]

He has 0 chance of winning, primarily because he is in Nashville. Had he been on any team north or east of here minus the 2 Florida teams he would most certainly be in the running.

This is total truthness change the city on his uni and he has 2 already and a favorite for his 3rd

 

[ThirdManIn]

Unless Boston can continue playing this well through the playoffs, I'm picking Keith to win. Either Suter or Karlsson rounds out the top-3.

My personal choice has Weber in the running.

What Boston does in the play offs won't matter since the votes will be cast before they begin.

Chara has no business being in the top three, much less at the top of this guy's list. Keith has a strong argument for it, as does Weber. After that Pietrangelo should be considered. I'd say Hedman should get some attention. McDonagh and Giordano have legitimate arguments to get a lot of votes. Karlsson for his offense, but he hasn't be very good in his own end so trying to prove he's the best all around defenseman will be difficult. Not that it matters since hockey writers don't give two ***** about what the description of the award is so long as the stats line is sexy.

I'm not surprised this guy's list is so pathetic. He's an NHL.com staff writer. That's all you need to know right there.

1) Keith
2) Weber
3) Pietrangelo
4) Chara
5) Hedman
T-6)Karlsson
T-6) McDonagh
8) Giordano

 

[sparkle twin]

Clearly if Karlsson's -17 doesn't hurt his chances of winning, then Weber's -8 shouldn't hurt his chances either.

I thought Doughty would win it last season just because of all the hype he had after the Kings won the cup, but then the lockout kind of messed everything up. This year every media person on TV slobbers all over Keith so I'm sure he will win it.





Where Weber ranks using just these players (they are from the OP's quoted tweet):
1 Chara 2 Keith 3 Karlsson 4 Pietrangelo 5 Giordano 6 Hedman 7 Vlasic 8 Subban 9 McDonagh 10 Doughty 11 Weber 12 OEL (added: Suter)

Goals: 1st (20)
Assist:9th (28)
Points: 5th (48)
PPGs: 1st (11)
PPPs: 2nd (25)
GWG: 2nd (4)
+/-: 12th (-8)
Shots: 4th (181)
Hits: 2nd (150)
Blocked Shots: 1st (155)
Take Aways: 5th (13)
Shifts/gm: 5th (30.5)
TOI/gm: 3rd (26:51)
ESTOI/gm: 3rd (21:00)
PPTOI/gm: 8th (3:12)
SHTOI/gm: 7ht (2:37)

16 categories and he's top 5 in 12. Top 3 in 8. Top 2 in 6. First in 3.

-Weber is the only one of these that has over 150 hits and blocked shots while scoring 20 goals (Subban is the only other one with over 100 of both and he has 126 hits and 115 blocks, but scored only 10 goals).
-Weber is the only one of these that averages over 26+ minutes/gm while playing 21:00 ES, 3:12 on the PP AND over 2:30 on the PK. Only Suter/Karlsson play more TOI/gm and ESTOI/gm and they both play less than Weber on the PK. Everyone that plays more PK than Weber also plays less ES. Same with PP (minus Karlsson/Suter).


When you look at where Keith, Karlsson, Doughty, Pietrangleo, Chara ranks among these players, there is absolutely no reason that Weber could not win the Norris or even be a finalist.

Looking at all the stats, I'm really not sure how Vlasic is even in this. He comes in last (or w/in the last 4) in all the categories except for +/- (1st with a +32) and blocks (3rd with 141).

And the only categories that Chara is ahead of Weber are +/- and SHTOI/gm.



I know that stats don't tell the whole story and I know people talk about intangibles and things you can't quantify and the "fancy stats", but these stats are what I have in front of me and what I can see for myself. And when you see where Weber would rank among these so called front runners, it's clear he should be given serious consideration no matter where he plays or how his team is doing.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Good stuff, Sparkle.

 

[Enoch]

Great post. This is the norm for Weber as well.

 

[Montross]

Pete Jensen @NHLJensen

Shea Weber: 1 hit from 20+ goals, 150+ hits & 150 blocks, something no player has achieved over past 9 seasons

 

[token grinder]

I think that he will be in the final three, but Pietrangelo will win it, and I am fine with that. If Nashville were making the playoffs or he was carrying the team on his back to the playoffs, he would win it. I will be interested to see where he ends up on the Hart list

 

[101st_fan]

I doubt Karlsson is really a true contender either. The three minus players to win are Blake (-3 during a 50 point season), Carlyle (-16 in 80-81), and the farewell gift to Lidstrom.

Hits are such a subjective stat that they are impossible to truly compare across conferences ... hell, even divisions.

Looking more in depth at Weber's stats ... his early play is troublesome when making a case for a major trophy. He was all but absent from the scoresheet for the first 40 games of the season at even strength (3g, 6a ... one of those goals an empty netter). When looking at the numbers that guys like Keith have consistently put up throughout the season, Weber's case pales in comparison. He had a great January ... is having a good March (statistically) so far ... but that first half of the season's worth of stats hurt his case.

 

[NSH615]

I doubt Karlsson is really a true contender either. The three minus players to win are Blake (-3 during a 50 point season), Carlyle (-16 in 80-81), and the farewell gift to Lidstrom.

Hits are such a subjective stat that they are impossible to truly compare across conferences ... hell, even divisions.

Looking more in depth at Weber's stats ... his early play is troublesome when making a case for a major trophy. He was all but absent from the scoresheet for the first 40 games of the season at even strength (3g, 6a ... one of those goals an empty netter). When looking at the numbers that guys like Keith have consistently put up throughout the season, Weber's case pales in comparison. He had a great January ... is having a good March (statistically) so far ... but that first half of the season's worth of stats hurt his case.

It's funny that people give Keith credit for all of the assists he's had but discredit assists for other players. If not for the assists, Keith would have nothing. 6 goals?

 

[Enoch]

Duncan Keith has 34 secondary assists. 34. Seriously. 34. This guy is a great defenseman but his numbers are bloated by the fact that he has 4 offensive stars terrorizing other teams night in and night out with Kane, Toews, Sharp, and Hossa, not to mention the rest of the crazy depth on that roster.
- PS: 34 secondary assists leads the LEAGUE in secondary assists.

Weber has 20g, 28a, averages 2 minutes more even strength per game, blocks more shots, plays more PK, has more hits.

Keith has 6g, 51a.

Give me Weber 100% of the time. The offensive production ISN'T even close.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

LeBrun:

At the end of the day, for me this comes down to Chara, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo and Doughty (in no particular order). I think those are likely the five names I'll put down on my Norris ballot in two weeks. "It's Keith or Weber for me," one NHL head coach said via text Friday. I'll take Keith for now.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/10688130/nhl-handing-nhl-individual-awards

 

[Enoch]

Fair enough:

Again I maintain:

120+ more hits, 80+ more blocked shots, 2 minutes more ES per game and TOI, 20 goals to 6 goals.

Keith is living off his gaudy secondary assist totals and dominant offensive forward corps who have some of the best puck possessors in the game.

Weber leads our team in goals, assists, TOI. He is the best player on our team by a mile. Keith is the fourth, or fifth best player on his team. His play has been consistent, not MVP caliber this year.

 

[ThirdManIn]

One thing about Keith has been pointed out over on the main boards. He is third (I think) in quality of competition among defensemen on his own team. It isn't his fault, of course, but they are obviously trying to give him favorable match ups which would tend to inflate his offensive stats while minimizing the chances of him making mistakes against top players.

I believe the only defenseman in the league who is in the running for the Norris who has had fewer offensive zone starts than Weber is Giordano, and Weber sees tougher competition than any of them.

edit: Yeah, here ya go

 

[Gnashville]

Duncan Keith has 34 secondary assists. 34. Seriously. 34. This guy is a great defenseman but his numbers are bloated by the fact that he has 4 offensive stars terrorizing other teams night in and night out with Kane, Toews, Sharp, and Hossa, not to mention the rest of the crazy depth on that roster.
- PS: 34 secondary assists leads the LEAGUE in secondary assists.

Weber has 20g, 28a, averages 2 minutes more even strength per game, blocks more shots, plays more PK, has more hits.

Keith has 6g, 51a.

Give me Weber 100% of the time. The offensive production ISN'T even close.

I'm pretty sure Weber on the Blackhawks with that up front fire power would have so many assists right now the Norris would be a lock. Not to mention the media hype of someone on a big market O6 team vs a small market expansion team.

 

[glenngineer]

Didn't Ray Bourque win a few Norris trophies while playing on average Bruins teams? Guy was a stud obviously but the award is for the best defensemen in the NHL. Record of the team be damned, it shouldn't matter. The Hart trophy is a different story.

 

[jwhouk]

The problem is this: the first major award that any member of the Predators is likely to win is the Conn Smythe Trophy. Because the only way anyone in the EHM* is going to give any Nashville player an award is if they win Lord Stanley's Cup.

* - Elitist Hockey Media