NHL to Seattle Volume XV - Moving the Expansion Needle [Upd: 9/24 Arena Reno. Unanimously Approved]

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Barclay Donaldson

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Team #32 is Seattle and will be confirmed the week before the finals next year at the latest.

Team #33 will cost $750 million and will join in the early 2020s. It will likely be Houston given the cost.

Team #34 will cost $1 billion and will join in the mid to late 2020s. This will likely be Toronto #2 or Hamilton/GTA.

Quebec City will get their team from relocation during the next economic downturn. Portland may also come in during this time as well as a surprise city or two (like Sacramento, Austin or Hartford).

Likely relocation threats have been the same for years. Carolina, Florida, Phoenix, Islanders*. Ottawa* could also be relocated given their ownership recently.

Look, man, your scenario is highly unlikely. Expansion past 32 won’t happen until the MLB, NBA, and NFL do the same. NHL loves the all even four divisions, two conferences. They’re looking to solidify after Seattle, not expand further. They’re paying for feasibility studies to expand NCAA Hockey. They’re setting up a 3 league pseudo-MLB system for prospect development. The Leafs-Marlins-Growlers set up is the streamlined way the NHL wants teams to find the next Marchessault and Gourde, with the league becoming increasingly competitive and teams needing to find the advantage.

The Houston Rockets owner hasn’t made a peep since that meeting and it’s been nearly a year. If they were getting a team in early 2020’s as you said, they would’ve said something within the past 6 months. There's been no ticket drive, no NHLtoHouston media presence, no attempt to expand youth hockey, nothing that Vegas and Seattle have all done. All signs point towards Houston being used as a relocation threat, much like QC, KC, and Hamilton, to hold cities hostage to build new stadiums with favorable leases and public money.

Speaking of Quebec City, your relocation choice, they held Trois Rivieres in reserve to house their AHL team and they're the only city able to support an AHL team for QC, with the only other one big enough being Sherbrooke but they've gone through AHL teams and the city is done with it. The Trois Rivieres mayor announced a new arena to host Montreal’s ECHL team. You can bet your house that move was made after Québecor pulled them aside and said they had given up on the NHL in QC and TR should explore other tenants for their new rink.
 
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Jumptheshark

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Team #32 is Seattle and will be confirmed the week before the finals next year at the latest.

Team #33 will cost $750 million and will join in the early 2020s. It will likely be Houston given the cost.

Team #34 will cost $1 billion and will join in the mid to late 2020s. This will likely be Toronto #2 or Hamilton/GTA.

Quebec City will get their team from relocation during the next economic downturn. Portland may also come in during this time as well as a surprise city or two (like Sacramento, Austin or Hartford).

Likely relocation threats have been the same for years. Carolina, Florida, Phoenix, Islanders*. Ottawa* could also be relocated given their ownership recently.


For Seattle your time line is off

It will be one year from announcement till they play and they wont play till maybe the 22/23 season

the hold up will be whether not both sides opt out of the agreement next fall

Present status[edit]
The current CBA is a 10-year deal, expiring after the 2021–22 season.[3]
The NHL can choose to opt out of the CBA on September 1, 2019 (expiring in 2020). The NHLPA can choose to opt out of the CBA on September 19, 2019

the NHL wont announce expansion only to have a lost year of play.
 

brewski420

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For Seattle your time line is off

It will be one year from announcement till they play and they wont play till maybe the 22/23 season

the hold up will be whether not both sides opt out of the agreement next fall



the NHL wont announce expansion only to have a lost year of play.

A lost year of play is a lost year expansion or not. NHL Owners will be happy to collect expansion fee before a potential shutdown. If everything lines up for 20-21 than I believe it will be then. Not ideal for an expansion team to be shutdown in second season. But then a shutdown isn't ideal for anyone involved.
 

Polar Bear

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I believe that the NHL will be the first league to expand beyond 32, BUT I don't believe they will do so for a bit after Seattle joins the fold. I think there is going to be more of an emphasis of getting new arenas for some teams/threaten relocation.
 

MasterMatt25

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I think after Seattle gets a team, we won't see an expansion for 30-40 years. If they expanded past 32, would they have to re-organize the entire playoff system?
 

Barclay Donaldson

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A league with more than 32 teams isn't MY goal. But I would like to see Quebec back in the league. They belong in the NHL and the NHL belongs in Quebec.

QC certainly belongs in the NHL. Heck, Saskatoon should be in ahead of Florida. Doesn’t mean that they will get a team. Look, they bring nothing to the league. Daly and Bettman with every move they’ve made have tried to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas. Look at the relocation and expansion done on their watch. Winnipeg is the only move they’ve allowed and that was to stymie Balsillie but that’s another story. QC is already hockey mad and Loi 101 French. That means no new fans and no TV deal.

Once you see the NFL, NBA, and MLB expand past 32, then expect the NHL to follow suite. Bettman’s legacy will be making the NHL mentioned in the same sentence as them in terms of popularity. If you still don’t believe me, look at them promoting and expanding NCAA hockey, streamlining 3 tier prospect development (copying the MLB system), and Houston shutting up after their NHL meeting as proof the league doesn’t want to grow past Seattle for a long time.

I think after Seattle gets a team, we won't see an expansion for 30-40 years. If they expanded past 32, would they have to re-organize the entire playoff system?

I agree that they won’t expand past 32 for a long time. They could still keep the top 8 teams in the 2 conferences making playoffs in the distant future if they do expand.
 

Hynh

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I think after Seattle gets a team, we won't see an expansion for 30-40 years. If they expanded past 32, would they have to re-organize the entire playoff system?
They will probably change the playoff format when they get to 32. The owners know that the playoffs and the playoff races are where the money is. If 25% of the league is out of the playoff race by Christmas that's bad for business, especially since the national broadcasts don't start until after that.
 

Hynh

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QC certainly belongs in the NHL. Heck, Saskatoon should be in ahead of Florida. Doesn’t mean that they will get a team. Look, they bring nothing to the league. Daly and Bettman with every move they’ve made have tried to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas. Look at the relocation and expansion done on their watch. Winnipeg is the only move they’ve allowed and that was to stymie Balsillie but that’s another story. QC is already hockey mad and Loi 101 French. That means no new fans and no TV deal.

Once you see the NFL, NBA, and MLB expand past 32, then expect the NHL to follow suite. Bettman’s legacy will be making the NHL mentioned in the same sentence as them in terms of popularity. If you still don’t believe me, look at them promoting and expanding NCAA hockey, streamlining 3 tier prospect development (copying the MLB system), and Houston shutting up after their NHL meeting as proof the league doesn’t want to grow past Seattle for a long time.



I agree that they won’t expand past 32 for a long time. They could still keep the top 8 teams in the 2 conferences making playoffs in the distant future if they do expand.

What's your definition of "a long time". To me even expansion in 2030 is short term.

I don't see how expanding the amateur and pro development pipelines means they're not looking to expand. If anything, that's a sign they're looking to keep expanding. More teams means a need for more talent.

Houston going silent isn't a tell one way or the other. If he wants a team he won't say anything to keep Bettman happy. If he doesn't want a team, he has nothing to say.
 

gstommylee

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They will probably change the playoff format when they get to 32. The owners know that the playoffs and the playoff races are where the money is. If 25% of the league is out of the playoff race by Christmas that's bad for business, especially since the national broadcasts don't start until after that.

They aren't going to do do more than 16 teams in the playoffs. The only thing that i could think that they could possible do is get rid of the wild cards and do top 4 each division then have it be a straight 8 seed based on points.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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What's your definition of "a long time". To me even expansion in 2030 is short term.

I don't see how expanding the amateur and pro development pipelines means they're not looking to expand. If anything, that's a sign they're looking to keep expanding. More teams means a need for more talent.

Houston going silent isn't a tell one way or the other. If he wants a team he won't say anything to keep Bettman happy. If he doesn't want a team, he has nothing to say.

20-30 years, because a lot can change demographically at that time. The Sun Belt went from unimaginable to reality in that time.

The NHL under Daly and Bettman both are out there to protect NHL owners. There’s nothing that any other market currently has to offer the league and owners. Expanding D1 hockey grows the game on someone else’s dime, which Bettman is big on. And they wouldn’t add too much at once. Bettman’s painstakingly and slowly built this league up over 20 something years. He wouldn’t add more than 2 teams in succession when it doesn’t benefit the league, and adding QC doesn’t benefit the league.

Houston apparently doesn’t either. After Seattle met with the league, they started the NHLtoSeattle. They lobbied to have their arena redone. They had media presence. They added big name members of their future ownership group. And a ticket drive. Their bid isn’t even accepted yet and they’re not going to get the team going until 2020 or 21 since that’s when their arena is getting redone. QC did everything but the season ticket drive. Houston hasn’t even said anything since the meeting. The owner was iffy going into it saying “if the price is right.” He has deep pockets, but dropping close to $1billion just to get the team to year 1 was probably too rich for his blood. There’s a different thread on the subject that can explain the why’s better than me.
 

MNNumbers

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I think I agree with Barclay. There really isn't a market left with an owner willing to pay what the NHL, in its pride and obstinacy, wants everyone to believe a franchise is worth.

That means no more expansion until someone starts hinting that they have that kind of cash.

QC and Houston are the 'maybe' available relocation places.
 
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powerstuck

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Speaking of Quebec City, your relocation choice, they held Trois Rivieres in reserve to house their AHL team and they're the only city able to support an AHL team for QC, with the only other one big enough being Sherbrooke but they've gone through AHL teams and the city is done with it. The Trois Rivieres mayor announced a new arena to host Montreal’s ECHL team. You can bet your house that move was made after Québecor pulled them aside and said they had given up on the NHL in QC and TR should explore other tenants for their new rink.

Just going OT here, and trying to understand what Trois-Rivières having an ECHL team means...

For what its worth, St. John, Newfoundland and Labrador, has a history of AHL. Toronto had their affiliate there. When Winnipeg came back in the league, the Moose was moved from Winnipeg to St. John. When they moved them back to Winnipeg, Montreal moved the Hamilton Bulldogs there for a few years before moving them to Laval.

^^
I think I agree with Barclay. There really isn't a market left with an owner willing to pay what the NHL, in its pride and obstinacy, wants everyone to believe a franchise is worth.

That means no more expansion until someone starts hinting that they have that kind of cash.

QC and Houston are the 'maybe' available relocation places.

I agree with this. But that also means that NHL will not wait on MLB/NFL/NBA to go 34 or beyond before they do. The NHL will absolutely want to cash in on any potential businessman raising his hand saying he would like to donate $650M+ to the league.

The league isn't working on China because of the TV market, they are working on China because the new millionaires/billionaires are going to come from China and the league wants to be part of the ''investment plans'' for those new guys.
 

Grudy0

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QC certainly belongs in the NHL. Heck, Saskatoon should be in ahead of Florida. Doesn’t mean that they will get a team. Look, they bring nothing to the league. Daly and Bettman with every move they’ve made have tried to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas. Look at the relocation and expansion done on their watch. Winnipeg is the only move they’ve allowed and that was to stymie Balsillie but that’s another story. QC is already hockey mad and Loi 101 French. That means no new fans and no TV deal.
I have to interject here.

The plans for the "southern" or "sun belt" strategy predated Bettman's tenure. Addressing relocation and expansion done on Bettman's or Daly's watch as trying "to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas" is very disingenuous - especially considering the first expansion under Bettman's watch were to northern markets Minnesota and Columbus, NHL retread Atlanta and a newcomer in Nashville that had been fighting to get an NHL team for years.

And the move to allow the Thrashers to be sold to True North to become the Winnipeg Jets 2.0 (another retread market) was not to stymie Balsillie, as he was already out of the picture at that point.
 

snovalleyhockeyfan

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Just going OT here, and trying to understand what Trois-Rivières having an ECHL team means...

For what its worth, St. John, Newfoundland and Labrador, has a history of AHL. Toronto had their affiliate there. When Winnipeg came back in the league, the Moose was moved from Winnipeg to St. John. When they moved them back to Winnipeg, Montreal moved the Hamilton Bulldogs there for a few years before moving them to Laval.



I agree with this. But that also means that NHL will not wait on MLB/NFL/NBA to go 34 or beyond before they do. The NHL will absolutely want to cash in on any potential businessman raising his hand saying he would like to donate $650M+ to the league.

The league isn't working on China because of the TV market, they are working on China because the new millionaires/billionaires are going to come from China and the league wants to be part of the ''investment plans'' for those new guys.

Yes, PS, and considering the amount of Chinese investment that already exists both in Seattle and in Vancouver, it's a bit surprising especially with Oak View here in Seattle that they didn't recruit anyone from over there to be a part of the prospective ownership group.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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Just going OT here, and trying to understand what Trois-Rivières having an ECHL team means...

For what its worth, St. John, Newfoundland and Labrador, has a history of AHL. Toronto had their affiliate there. When Winnipeg came back in the league, the Moose was moved from Winnipeg to St. John. When they moved them back to Winnipeg, Montreal moved the Hamilton Bulldogs there for a few years before moving them to Laval.



I agree with this. But that also means that NHL will not wait on MLB/NFL/NBA to go 34 or beyond before they do. The NHL will absolutely want to cash in on any potential businessman raising his hand saying he would like to donate $650M+ to the league.

The league isn't working on China because of the TV market, they are working on China because the new millionaires/billionaires are going to come from China and the league wants to be part of the ''investment plans'' for those new guys.

Trois Rivieres was held in reserve to host QC's AHL team for quite a while. Québecor chose TR because it close to QC to follow the new NHL-AHL relationship model, a rivalry with Laval, and no other city nearby having the infrastructure to host the team, which in addition was a dig at QMJHL's lower quality arenas but that's getting OT. So, if TR is even sniffing out another option, that mean's they won't be hosting the QC's AHL team. Since Québecor doesn't want to (and can't) put their hypothetical AHL team anywhere else, it in all likelihood means that they went to Trois Riviere and said they should look for other tenants for their new arena since the NHL wasn't going to QC which means the AHL wasn't going to TR. Un club-école du Canadien à Trois-Rivières ? explains it pretty well albeit in French.

If the NHL wanted to cash in on potential businessmen willing to pay the fee to the league that much, then they would've accepted QC's bid. They've got a plan and they're sticking to it.

I have to interject here.

The plans for the "southern" or "sun belt" strategy predated Bettman's tenure. Addressing relocation and expansion done on Bettman's or Daly's watch as trying "to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas" is very disingenuous - especially considering the first expansion under Bettman's watch were to northern markets Minnesota and Columbus, NHL retread Atlanta and a newcomer in Nashville that had been fighting to get an NHL team for years.

And the move to allow the Thrashers to be sold to True North to become the Winnipeg Jets 2.0 (another retread market) was not to stymie Balsillie, as he was already out of the picture at that point.

It was the league's plan yes, and it probably started about the same time as the Gretzky to LA trade.

Disingenuous? You're joking, right? Look at the relocation he allowed. Winnipeg to Phoenix, QC to Colorado, Minnesota to Dallas, and Hartford to Carolina. The expansion Anaheim and Florida were pretty much written in stone but still happened during tenure. Teams in the Deep South in Nashville and Atlanta, which is the middle of college football land. None of them were hockey markets. The moves that he blocked, too. Blocking Balsillie's attempts to buy several teams, including the Predators, when they came much closer to moving in 2007 then we'd like to admit now they're a powerhouse. Preventing the Coyotes from moving or being liquidated by having the league buy the team. Having the Penguins stay by encouraging KC to build an arena to hold Pittsburgh hostage to build a new arena.

I'll give you Minnesota, he came out and said it was righting a wrong. Columbus though may be in the north but is not a traditional hockey market. They never saw pro hockey before and the state had seen some minor pro in Cincinnati, Toledo and the NHL Barons in Cleveland but that's it. I'm guessing you've never been to the state, it has a bigger Midwest market vibe than a northern market feel.

For Balsillie, he wasn't actively making bids like he had in 2006-08, but he was still in the picture. True North got the Thrashers because Atlanta couldn't find new local ownership to stop the bleeding and the league couldn't risk Balsillie trying to snag them in administration proceedings, like Phoenix. The league bought the Coyotes to prevent that. True North respected the system and they were the only ones around who weren't Balsillie. They bought the Thrashers for $170 million, players and all. That's peanuts, even at the time.
 
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powerstuck

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Yes, PS, and considering the amount of Chinese investment that already exists both in Seattle and in Vancouver, it's a bit surprising especially with Oak View here in Seattle that they didn't recruit anyone from over there to be a part of the prospective ownership group.

Personally, I see the Chinese being the future buyers. It's like the current 31(soon to be 32) owners are marketing their product to China in hopes of attracting future buyers and increasing the prices.
 

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Barclay,

I think you are on the right track, but I respectfully suggest that you forget anything about a "grand plan" until just a few years ago. Until the Vegas situation opened up (more on that in a bit, here), the league ALWAYS did whatever was in the short term $$ interest of either the existing owners, or their friends.

Winnipeg>>Phoenix. This was NOT planned at all. Jets were supposed to go to Minneapolis, but Minneapolis rebuffed them (look it up some time). Phoenix was the only landing place available. And, that's why they have problems yet today. No market preparation.

Atlanta 2.0>>Winnipeg. There was nothing about this which was done to exclude Balsillie. The reality is that the league had been negotiating with True North about Phoenix in case that became necessary (this was 2 years after the BK, and Balsillie was no factor any more). And, since price had been decided, and NHL had done all the vetting, when the emergency came up in Atlanta, Winnipeg was the only place they could go. I believe that NHL was caught blind-sided by the ASG. Although, truth be known, they should have been paying closer attention, and they wouldn't have gotten caught like that. Although I'm not sure what difference it made, in the long run (although the curious question is: What if Glendale had refused the extortion and hadn't paid the 25M?)

Then, Centre Videotron. I believe now that this was a case of Quebec as a city and a province noticing what happened in Winnipeg and thinking too positively. First, the new boards at the old Colisee. Then, the new arena. I believe that they assumed more than the NHL actually told them. So, I'm not really sure that the NHL wants to go there, although I am sure it would be a stable market.

So, the present. It's my belief that Foley reached out to the league first, and the league suggested Vegas. That's a new arena, and Foley has part ownership. So, he came with the money, and the league, for the first time, took initiative to get the team where THEY wanted it - in the west, for geographic balance. Then, Seattle. No secret they have been watching Seattle for a long time. It would be interesting to know, sometime, how long feelers were going out behind the scenes about renovating Key, all the while Hansen was engaged in his dream in SoDo. But, again, that is part of a plan.

So, the reality now is: Seattle will balance the divisions. It's likely that the playoffs become, for a while, anyway, top4 with 2 rounds in division. That lessens travel even more, so the PA will love it, and it works better for TV, too.

If the league expanded again, then each owner could expect somewhere around 18M from the fee. But, it will come at a price. The owners are hoping for a big media contract (I don't think it's coming, but.....). And, all those fees will be split more ways. And, a slightly lower chance of playoff qualification. And, perhaps a re-alignment. Further expansion seems more headache than positive. Especially since Houston's Fertitta doesn't want to pay the going rate, and it's possible Quebecor can't. No where else is even close.

And, the plan, if you will, is that both of those places COULD receive a team if it were necessary.

What's interesting in the big picture is that Seattle might not come on board until 2021. There might be a work stoppage that year. And, after 2023, I think, Florida can opt out of their lease. So, the rumor mill will start all over again there, especially since, although I can't remember the details, it seems to me that the most recent thing Broward County did didn't seem especially receptive to continue to finance the Panthers.
 

Grudy0

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Disingenuous? You're joking, right? Look at the relocation he allowed. Winnipeg to Phoenix, QC to Colorado, Minnesota to Dallas, and Hartford to Carolina. The expansion Anaheim and Florida were pretty much written in stone but still happened during tenure. Teams in the Deep South in Nashville and Atlanta, which is the middle of college football land. None of them were hockey markets. The moves that he blocked, too. Blocking Balsillie's attempts to buy several teams, including the Predators, when they came much closer to moving in 2007 then we'd like to admit now they're a powerhouse. Preventing the Coyotes from moving or being liquidated by having the league buy the team. Having the Penguins stay by encouraging KC to build an arena to hold Pittsburgh hostage to build a new arena.
Aside from the fact that the expansion teams granted to Anaheim and Florida happened in December 1992, prior to Bettman's official start date of 1 February 1993, and that the BoG under Bruce McNall and Gil Stein had already allowed Norm Green to move the Stars from Minnesota, there's that messy problem with the "relocation he allowed"...

Jim Balsillie entered into an agreement to purchase the Pittsburgh Penguins. When it came time for the League to approve, Balsillie walked away from the purchase because supposedly he would have to sign a seven-year non-relocation covenant and give the League the right to buy back the team in case of financial difficulty during that period.

This question usually stumps everyone: why would Jim Balsillie have to sign a non-relocation covenant with the League if the League already has rules in place regarding relocation approvals? In other words, as the non-relocation covenant is an iron-clad contract with the League, would that mean the League's relocation approval process could be too weak to stop a move? And since it appears Balsillie's entire modus operandi was to get a team to Hamilton by any means necessary, counter to the League's position, it was a wise move to block him from NHL ownership before becoming the proverbial "fox in the henhouse".

As an aside, a large part of the reason the League approved sales and relocations of the Jets and the Nordiques was because newer arenas for those teams were not on the horizon. Both those teams as well as the Whalers were losing money and there was to be no change to those fortunes in the near future.
 

powerstuck

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Atlanta 2.0>>Winnipeg. There was nothing about this which was done to exclude Balsillie. The reality is that the league had been negotiating with True North about Phoenix in case that became necessary (this was 2 years after the BK, and Balsillie was no factor any more). And, since price had been decided, and NHL had done all the vetting, when the emergency came up in Atlanta, Winnipeg was the only place they could go. I believe that NHL was caught blind-sided by the ASG. Although, truth be known, they should have been paying closer attention, and they wouldn't have gotten caught like that. Although I'm not sure what difference it made, in the long run (although the curious question is: What if Glendale had refused the extortion and hadn't paid the 25M?)

I remember that there were talks in Quebec as soon as 2008 and it was intensified in 2010 about Colisée Pepsi serving as a temporary facility if needed.
It was the City's 400th anniversary in 2008 and the city co-hosted (with Halifax) the 2008 IIHF WC. Prior to the championship all the lower bowl seats were changed (from old wooden ones to new plastic/tissue ones).

In 2010, they changed the boards which in media were specified to be ''up to NHL standards'' and there were talks that they could change the building's AC units. Ice plants units were good but AC was slacking and in April/May it would be very hot.

Now, we will never know what would have happened, but one could speculate that if Coyotes landed in Winnipeg like it was planned, Thrasher could have landed in Quebec. All these talks led to the City officially launching the construction of a new building in 2012.

As an aside, a large part of the reason the League approved sales and relocations of the Jets and the Nordiques was because newer arenas for those teams were not on the horizon. Both those teams as well as the Whalers were losing money and there was to be no change to those fortunes in the near future.

That's a bit too simple to resume tho. Back then the league sale and relocation process was kinda just a matter of a vote. No real analysis. Heck, when it comes to Quebec, Marcel Aubut (who was the owner of the Nordiques) asked the government for a new building, the province said no. But the untold is that Aubut also had an offer to sell the Nordiques to a buyer that would have kept them in Quebec City, he chose to get more cash by selling them to Colorado. After all, back then teams were trading players for the cold hard cash. Whalers are a bit different because it wasn't a sale but a relocation by their owner that put them in Carolina. And even that, we know wasn't the prefered location because Karmanos wanted to be team #2 in Michigan.

In a way, I do believe Bettman when he talked about Winnipeg and correcting something that should never have happened. You could say that today's salary cap and floor and revenue sharing is in part (at least) due to Jets 1.0 and Nordiques relocations.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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The NHL’s plan has been to put it on the same level as the NBA and MLB. They’ve adopted the symmetrical season schedule structure of the NBA and now are trying to have the 3 tier prospect development system of the MLB.

Bettman has always known that getting Americans to adopt the sport will solidify the future of the league. So when, like now, the Canadian dollar is low and the American dollar is stable, the league remains on good financial footing. It isn’t some grand plan but it’s always revolved around that goal.

Quebec City did the same thing as Kansas City thinking “build it and they will come.” The NHL will use it as threat of relocation to get teams to build new arenas for their teams. Pittsburgh has a shiny new stadium simply because KC was there in the waiting, even though Lemieux had no intention of leaving.

For Florida, their arena issue is similar the one that Ottawa has in that it isn’t downtown. However, downtown Miami is equally uneasy to get to. The other side argues that its current location is where their fan base is, since Miami proper is majority Hispanic and not hockey fans. They’ll probably use QC as a threat to relocate to get a new stadium once they get their market demographics figured out.
 

PCSPounder

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The NHL’s plan has been to put it on the same level as the NBA and MLB. They’ve adopted the symmetrical season schedule structure of the NBA and now are trying to have the 3 tier prospect development system of the MLB.

Judging how the ECHL is threatening to retrench more than anything, it's starting to look more like a one-tier system.

(FYI... I'm usually the unwitting marker on this board for when a thread has drifted a bit far, and I'm a sucker for a good tangent, but 3... 2...)
 
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KevFu

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QC certainly belongs in the NHL. Heck, Saskatoon should be in ahead of Florida. Doesn’t mean that they will get a team. Look, they bring nothing to the league. Daly and Bettman with every move they’ve made have tried to add non-hockey fans, get good TV contracts, and become popular in non-traditional areas. Look at the relocation and expansion done on their watch. Winnipeg is the only move they’ve allowed and that was to stymie Balsillie but that’s another story. QC is already hockey mad and Loi 101 French. That means no new fans and no TV deal.

Growing is a good thing. Tapping in to under-served markets is a good thing. The "plan" was actually a very good "idea" for the NHL... but I use quotes because it wasn't a very focused, long-term vision that was well executed. Their execution was horrible because their plan completely ignored the fact that while they wanted to grow... virtually all their existing members needed new venues. Had they worked on a SLOW BUILD of new markets in untapped large cities, with a master plan, it could have worked so much better.

But that's neither here nor there...

Once you see the NFL, NBA, and MLB expand past 32, then expect the NHL to follow suite.

I disagree, based solely on the fact that while there's not a market that's big/rich/isolated from existing teams enough to be the 32nd MLB team.... the NHL has Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Quebec: Markets far down the population lists that are so crazy-go-nuts for hockey that the NHL leads the "big four" in potentially successful markets. Teams like Dallas, Tampa, Nashville and San Jose have proven that hockey can be successful in markets some would call "non-conventional." But basketball and baseball don't have untapped cities where their sport is a religion (Except maybe Louisville or Kansas City for the NBA).

And another reason I don't think the timeline is as far as you might thing is a key word in this:

Bettman’s legacy will be making the NHL mentioned in the same sentence as them in terms of popularity.

Bettman's legacy is something he's going to think about before retirement. And there's simply no way that Bettman is going out before restoring NHL to Quebec. The biggest blemishes from his legacy are the relocations of MIN, WIN, QUE, HART; and of course the lockouts. He can't do anything about lockouts, and probably not Hartford. But he can leave with an NHL "Before/After" that looks exactly the same in Canada and has 10 to 12 new southern markets (and Columbus instead of Hartford).


If you still don’t believe me, look at them promoting and expanding NCAA hockey, streamlining 3 tier prospect development (copying the MLB system), and Houston shutting up after their NHL meeting as proof the league doesn’t want to grow past Seattle for a long time.

Or, Houston's owner is keeping their mouths shut because: the NHL's 16-14 East/West split meant they needed THREE Western markets before they could add Quebec. Vegas was one, Houston could be the second... but they didn't have the third. Houston and Quebec have venues ready to go. It makes no sense to add Houston/Quebec after Vegas and have a 17-16 split with NO ONE gunning to be team #34. It does make sense to get Seattle in first, THEN keep in balanced with Quebec and Houston. Especially if Quebec applied for a $500 million team (bid was deferred, not denied) and Houston's balking at the price. It would not surprise me if the fees for HOU/QUE weren't really talked about and generic terms like "over a billion dollars in expansion fees" were used. $500 plus interest for QUE and matching price for Houston -- and they'll justify it saying that Vegas/Seattle had a better situation joining the league separately. They paid extra for single-expansion.


They could still keep the top 8 teams in the 2 conferences making playoffs in the distant future if they do expand.

I would hope that no matter what form the league takes in terms of size, the NHL playoffs remain 16 teams always. Byes and one-game scenarios are annoying, pointless and stupid. Playoff fields need to be factors of two: 2, 4, 8, 16 (pro leagues) 32, 64, (large NCAA sized leagues)
 
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