NHL (playoff) reminder about counterfeit products

[LadyStanley]

http://sharks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=562942

Seems to be written from a "it's a bad thing and corporations are losing $$" rather than putting it into terms that might get action.


I know from friend who comes in a different entrance/location than I there's a t-shirt vendor (using colors and common dictionary words) that has been selling a lot of (obvious) Shark playoff stuff. But as they are not using trademarked logos, nor even claiming to make authorized products, I don't know there's much that the NHL/Sharks can do. So I'm wondering if this might be a shot across the bow of that vendor and try to shame fans from not frequenting vendor. (And spending their $$ outside the Tank, not inside. From t-shirts I've seen at the games, these other ones seemed to have a lot more creativity/play-on-words than most of the merchandise that is nominally available for sale inside.)

Click to read more...

 

[blamebettman*]

Tough beans NHL. This is what you deserve for charging insane prices for merchandise. You can get very high quality knockoffs for 1/3rd of the price

 

[Killion]

So I'm wondering if this might be a shot across the bow of that vendor and try to shame fans from not frequenting vendor.

Ya, appears to be a "shot across the bows". The Canucks' tend to be hypersensitive about stuff like that, going so far as to having NHL Licensing sending a letter to a car dealership (thread here of a few weeks ago) to cease & desist from using the term "Canucks" & or logo in their window display in support of the teams playoff run. Counterfit Canucks jerseys, t-shirts & caps, car flags & window banners are a problem up here as well, whereby the actual logo itself is actually used, be it Johnny Canuck, the Killer Whale 'C', the "Flying 'V' Halloween numbers or whatever, disreputable retailers selling them for the same price as the genuine article. Indeed, the Canucks also have a serious dislike for professional ticket re-sellers, not so much the odd scalper, but the companies who buy up blocks & re-sell them at a 500%+ markup. Very watchful. Raids on warehouses containing knock-offs an annual event. That guy in San Jose' seems rather brazen though I must say; selling his goods so close to the Tank if not on the property itself.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Tough beans NHL. This is what you deserve for charging insane prices for merchandise. You can get very high quality knockoffs for 1/3rd of the price

Exactly

 

[bodybreak]

I unknowingly purchased a counterfeit jersey in the States a year ago for regular retail price... What I would like is to do is hand mine in, get the real version I was hoping for (since I paid that price for it!) and turn in the store that was doing this (I've noticed they've got in more shipments since... they were more obvious fakes, which is what tipped me off to mine being fake).

Only thing is... no one has been able to hook me up with an agency that would be willing to do such thing. Closest thing I've come across is reporting to American border agency online... I can do it anonymously or not but they say they won't respond directly to me, so that's out. Anyone know the agency I should be talking to??

 

[King Woodballs]

shouldnt charge 250-300 for something you can get the exact same thing for 80-100
tough luck schmuck

 

[rojac]

shouldnt charge 250-300 for something you can get the exact same thing for 80-100
tough luck schmuck

I'd argue that you shouldn't be buying things from people who don't have the right to sell them.

But then I shouldn't be surprised. The lack of respect for intellectual property rights on HFBoards is staggering.

 

[Dado]

**** 'em. The stuff is made in sweatshops under horribly abusive conditions that nobody posting on this board would find acceptable for themselves.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I can be "shamed" into buying only official gear.

And I *will* be wearing my Canucks poncho - $15 off the street in Mazatlan - to whatever we're calling the arena these days.

 

[rojac]

**** 'em. The stuff is made in sweatshops under horribly abusive conditions that nobody posting on this board would find acceptable for themselves.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I can be "shamed" into buying only official gear.

And I *will* be wearing my Canucks poncho - $15 off the street in Mazatlan - to whatever we're calling the arena these days.

Your point about sweatshops also likelly applies (and probably moreso) to the counterfeit poncho you seem to love.

 

[Killion]

Anyone know the agency I should be talking to??

Unfortunately, there isnt much you can do about it. In Canada, the Canadian Stndards Association & an organization called the Canadian Anti-Counterfitting Association monitor rip-offs like that, acting with Police & or Revenue Canada Agents when complaints are lodged or merchandise coming in through ports looks fishy. Much of the stuff is mfg'd in China, tied to organized crime. In Toronto, Pacific Mall & here in Vancouver out in Richmond where there are at least 2 big shopping centers, you'll find nothing but fakes being sold out of what appear to be genuine article boutiques, however, at 1/4 the cost of the real thing, you'd have to know your buying a knock-off. During the Olympics', carpet stores, places that never carried things like jerseys etc had racks of them, all fake, all full price. Raided. Inventorys confiscated. Unfortunately, its not just NHL apparel thats getting forged, watches, handbags, jeans, you name it, and very dangerously of late, things like electrical extension cords, LCD TV's, Plasma Screens, even airplane parts, stuff that can kill.

 

[Dado]

Your point about sweatshops also likelly applies (and probably moreso) to the counterfeit poncho you seem to love.

Sure. With the difference that (a) I supported a local business, (b) the local sweatshop earned more than the distant sweatshop, and (c) I had lots of money left over to spend on other people's businesses.

Every dollar that goes into the NHL's margins is a dollar that doesn't go to some other part of the economy.

 

[Mayor Bee]

shouldnt charge 250-300 for something you can get the exact same thing for 80-100
tough luck schmuck

I bought a great quality car just a few days ago; it was a brand new BMW and it cost me $500. All I had to do was go into the ghetto, agree to be frisked and scanned, and wait for the VIN number to be switched out with another one. It's fine though, right? Actually, I could have had it cheaper, since the labor involved wasn't $500.

I'd argue that you shouldn't be buying things from people who don't have the right to sell them.

But then I shouldn't be surprised. The lack of respect for intellectual property rights on HFBoards is staggering.

No kidding.

Of course, if I had my way, bootleg jerseys could be taken off someone's back, and sale of bootlegs (any quantity) would be a felony with mandatory sentencing and a $1,000 fine for every piece of bootleg apparel. Canada and the United States lose about $300 billion out of the economy every year to bootleggers and counterfeiters, but it's okay because this is some type of holy crusade against "sweatshops"? What a bunch of garbage.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Tough beans NHL. This is what you deserve for charging insane prices for merchandise. You can get very high quality knockoffs for 1/3rd of the price

Let me ask you this. Are you okay with bootleg Winnipeg Jets gear? When the team moved, there were huge numbers of Jets jerseys (replica and authentic) out there, and there's still a huge number still out there. In addition, Winnipeg had two different styles released as part of the CCM Vintage line a few years back, further boosting the supply.

This all predates Reebok picking up an NHL contract. What's your justification for buying bootlegs of something where there's already a huge supply?

 

[Killion]

Of course, if I had my way, bootleg jerseys could be taken off someone's back, and sale of bootlegs (any quantity) would be a felony with mandatory sentencing and a $1,000 fine for every piece of bootleg apparel. Canada and the United States lose about $300 billion out of the economy every year to bootleggers and counterfeiters, but it's okay because this is some type of holy crusade against "sweatshops"? What a bunch of garbage.

Ditto on that one Mayor. I think what most people either fail to grasp or dont understand is that most of it is criminally based in China & elsewhere, the tentacles reaching into the retail trade throughout North America & Europe. The markets are so flooded with the drek that its impossible for the rights holders let alone enforcement agencies to keep up. When caught, retailers claim they didnt realize it was either; A) Illegal or; B) the stuff wasnt the genuine article. Then theres the video games, DVD&CD knockoffs, music & film sites on the net which touches my business personally. Cest' criminale'. Were not talking about some guy in Peoria who runs off 500 t-shirts. This is a huge insidious global business & touches on almost every single product line & service to one degree or another.

Pirates.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Ditto on that one Mayor. I think what most people either fail to grasp or dont understand is that most of it is criminally based in China & elsewhere, the tentacles reaching into the retail trade throughout North America & Europe. The markets are so flooded with the drek that its impossible for the rights holders let alone enforcement agencies to keep up. When caught, retailers claim they didnt realize it was either; A) Illegal or; B) the stuff wasnt the genuine article. Then theres the video games, DVD&CD knockoffs, music & film sites on the net which touches my business personally. Cest' criminale'. Were not talking about some guy in Peoria who runs off 500 t-shirts. This is a huge insidious global business & touches on almost every single product line & service to one degree or another.

Pirates.

Exactly. The people trying to make an honest living and run their business the right way are being severely and irreparably damaged by criminals.

I have a pretty sizable collection of jerseys; the number is probably around 150 or so. They're all authentics or gamers, with a few replicas thrown in. The overwhelming majority of them I was able to acquire cheaply because there are massive supplies out there of even the old styles. And they're all legit. Oh, and the number of Reebok Edge jerseys I own? 5. Two of them were off of a clearance rack from an NHL team store, and the other three were surpluses from a team that used them for promotional purposes.

In the interest of disclosure, I did acquire a bootleg as part of a jersey lot off of eBay a couple years back. The guy selling them had an old LA Kings Starter authentic, but it came with a bootleg Mitchell and Ness NBA jersey. I kept the Kings jersey and burned the NBA one.

Here's the thing. I know what jerseys cost. I know what the cost of the materials is, I know what the labor costs are, I know what teams pay to buy them from Reebok, and so on. I know that it forces team shops and retailers into unfavorable situations, and I also know that the cost is going to be going up again. I know that an awful lot of people whose businesses rely on this have made Reebok aware of this, and they don't seem to care. That doesn't make bootlegs right, it doesn't make it morally acceptable, and it doesn't make it legally acceptable. All it does is line the pockets of criminal enterprises while crippling our own businesses and economies.

 

[LadyStanley]

Mod note: Let's please avoid political rhetoric and concentrate on the NHL (and other hockey) counterfeiting, business-related aspects.

 

[Valhuen]

Hell, when I was stationed overseas with the US Pacific Fleet years ago, in many locations (Manila, Seoul, etc.) you could get bootleg Starter NHL jerseys for $10 or so each. Very nice quality too. Never bought any, but have to admit to being tempted.....

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Canada and the United States lose about $300 billion out of the economy every year to bootleggers and counterfeiters, but it's okay because this is some type of holy crusade against "sweatshops"? What a bunch of garbage.

Just to start out here, I don't knowingly buy bootleg or counterfeit stuff. But that number sounds like the kind of number an industry association throws out based on extremely biased estimates to maximize the perception of damage in the public.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Just to start out here, I don't knowingly buy bootleg or counterfeit stuff. But that number sounds like the kind of number an industry association throws out based on extremely biased estimates to maximize the perception of damage in the public.

That came from the FBI and RCMP. I tend to take a lot of figures of declared damages with a grain of salt, but I've also seen exactly how big jersey bootlegging has become in the last few years....plus I have no idea how widespread other things like media piracy are.

 

[King Woodballs]

I'd argue that you shouldn't be buying things from people who don't have the right to sell them.

But then I shouldn't be surprised. The lack of respect for intellectual property rights on HFBoards is staggering.

I am tired of being gouged by north american companies
get all their products made over seas for a fraction and yet sell it for the same price as if they were being made domestically

**** them

 

[Mayor Bee]

I am tired of being gouged by north american companies
get all their products made over seas for a fraction and yet sell it for the same price as if they were being made domestically

**** them

Almost all of the older ones were made here in North America. Maska used to produce jerseys for CCM, with everything being made in either Quebec or somewhere in the United States. Bauer and Nike jerseys from the 1990s were made by SP Apparel, which is in Quebec. If I remember my history, Starter was the first one to go outside of Canada or the United States; they had replica jerseys made in Haiti, El Salvador, and elsewhere. Authentics were still made in Wisconsin (Berlin).

Basically, buying a bootleg supports something that has absolutely zero ties to North America. The materials are made in China, the product is assembled in China, and no licensing is paid out (thus making it stolen). The retail side is in China...you get the point. The money leaves North America and directly enters an overseas economy, and no one knows where it goes past that point.

 

[maci4life]

Almost all of the older ones were made here in North America. Maska used to produce jerseys for CCM, with everything being made in either Quebec or somewhere in the United States. Bauer and Nike jerseys from the 1990s were made by SP Apparel, which is in Quebec. If I remember my history, Starter was the first one to go outside of Canada or the United States; they had replica jerseys made in Haiti, El Salvador, and elsewhere. Authentics were still made in Wisconsin (Berlin).

Basically, buying a bootleg supports something that has absolutely zero ties to North America. The materials are made in China, the product is assembled in China, and no licensing is paid out (thus making it stolen). The retail side is in China...you get the point. The money leaves North America and directly enters an overseas economy, and no one knows where it goes past that point.

As opposed to the current crop of jerseys being made in CHINA as well? Yes it does have NA ties, because the retailers selling these items are in North america, and their profits help the economy here just as much as the Chinese made authentic jerseys being shipped here and sold.

The main reason counterfeiting is so rampant is because these large corporations move the manufacturing over to china to increase profit, and hope that the Chinese abide by some imaginary morales of profit margins so that the large corps can gouge the public. The Chinese know that the profit margins are inflated so high that they can make a similiar product ( not care about intellectual property rights ) and make profits off of it as well and undercut them. To me, thats how a market corrects itself, when a monopoly tries to control a market.

In making a deal with the devil ( figuratively speaking, i'm not saying chinese are evil ), they have opened themselves up to moulds and stamps being stolen or replicated and producing goods at a cheaper price. If they want to eliminate the conterfeits, then they're going to either have to offer a product that is superior in value either by raising the quality, or by lowering the price. They do not want to do either, so they are stuck with the consequences.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That came from the FBI and RCMP. I tend to take a lot of figures of declared damages with a grain of salt, but I've also seen exactly how big jersey bootlegging has become in the last few years....plus I have no idea how widespread other things like media piracy are.

Yeah but I also know how inflationary the music industry for example calculates damages in lawsuits over filesharing and I imagine you can do the same tricks in jersey bootlegging and other fields too.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The main reason counterfeiting is so rampant is because these large corporations move the manufacturing over to china to increase profit, and hope that the Chinese abide by some imaginary morales of profit margins so that the large corps can gouge the public. The Chinese know that the profit margins are inflated so high that they can make a similiar product ( not care about intellectual property rights ) and make profits off of it as well and undercut them. To me, thats how a market corrects itself, when a monopoly tries to control a market.

Dude, it's not "imaginary morals", a market has rules, trade has rules. That's the only way global trade can operate at all in a peaceful environment. Gangs who manufacture and distribute counterfeits are breaking these rules. That's not a market correction, that's crime.

There's no law keeping a business from selling an exclusive license for one of its products to another business nor is it unethical.

The Chinese situation is worrisome because there's so little accountability involved when it comes to the rule of (our) law, but really the moral blame here rests on the people who engage in such criminal activity.

 

[Dado]

I think what most people either fail to grasp or dont understand is that most of it is criminally based in China & elsewhere...

It's not that we don't know - it's that we don't care.

But there is no reasonable way to discuss this without talking philosophy on intellectual property, which is just another form of political discussion and forbidden by HF, so I imagine I'll be dropping out of this chit chat.