OT: NHL All-Time Draft, Round 2

[Chan790]

Look Dryden was fine but we aren’t exactly the f***ing 70s Canadiens. We can pick Chad and be the assholes that ruin this ( on brand), or we can pick Kharmalov like intelligent people.

Or we pick Boom Boom Geoffrion in honor of our own BBA.

I only voted Dryden because we should not be the assholes and it was the viable choice at that (and this) time to block the Chad votes.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

If you're not gonna pick Rosey, then consider John Scott.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nighbor is the best player on the board, and is also the last remaining high-end 1C.

Edit: for those who don’t obsess over early-era hockey, Nighbor was arguably the best two way center ever and certainly the best before Bobby Clarke. Defensive heart of a dynasty which was noted for its defense, and also a high end offensive player. Extremely clean player who didn’t hurt his team with penalties while completely shutting down opposing stars. Won 4 Stanley Cups, first player to win the Hart, first player to win the Byng. Basically take Nick Lidstrom and make him a center.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Nighbor is the best player on the board, and is also the last remaining high-end 1C.

“Have fun with your pick of Steve Yzerman, we’re going with some guy named Buggsy that scored 16 goals in 23 games in the 1912-13 season!”

4 years later, the NHL instituted the controversial new rule that players would be allowed to skate backwards (if they were able).

Evgeni Malkin isn’t in the top 100 players of all time this stupid ass league...

 

[tarheelhockey]

“Have fun with your pick of Steve Yzerman, we’re going with some guy named Buggsy that scored 16 goals in 23 games in the 1912-13 season!”

4 years later, the NHL instituted the controversial new rule that players would be allowed to skate backwards (if they were able).

Evgeni Malkin isn’t in the top 100 players of all time this stupid ass league...

Yzerman and Malkin are a step down from the caliber of center we should be taking in the 1st round of an all time draft.

FWIW, the ATD board has played this game every year for like 15 years, and have all but optimized the order of the first few rounds. Most recently they picked Nighbor 22, Yzerman 30, Kharlamov 45, Dryden 59, Malkin 85.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yzerman and Malkin are a step down from the caliber of center we should be taking in the 1st round of an all time draft.

FWIW, the ATD board has played this game every year for like 15 years, and have all but optimized the order of the first few rounds. Most recently they picked Nighbor 22, Yzerman 30, Kharlamov 45, Dryden 59, Malkin 85.

I get it, at the same time I don't.

It's like having the Wright brothers on your all-time list of competing aerospace engineers.

I get that the rules say "their skills are all updated to modern day" or whatever, but what does that even mean? Frank Nighbor's Wikipedia page says he was known for his "famous poke check". I appreciate the history and progression of the sport and players that contributed to that should be recognized, but to me that's like saying "I want to select the first goalie to actually stand in the net instead of standing off to the side holding his stick like a baseball bat? Henrik Lundqvist? Nah. Bobbsy 'Iron Chest' Tarrington please!" The suspension of disbelief that ol' Iron Chest wouldn't simply be decapitated by Alex Ovechkin within the first two minutes of the first period makes these types of drafts difficult for me.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I get it, at the same time I don't.

It's like having the Wright brothers on your all-time list of engineers.

I get that the rules say "their skills are all updated to modern day" or whatever, but what does that even mean? Frank Nighbor's Wikipedia page says he was known for his "famous poke check". I appreciate the history and progression of the sport and players that contributed to that should be recognized, but to me that's like saying "I want to select the first goalie to actually stand in the net instead of standing off to the side holding his stick like a baseball bat? Henrik Lundqvist? Nah. Bobbsy 'Iron Chest' Tarrington please!" The suspension of disbelief that ol' Iron Chest wouldn't simply be decapitated by Alex Ovechkin within the first two minutes of the first period makes these types of drafts difficult for me.

Part of the purpose of this game is to learn about the history of the sport, so people don’t just reflexively shit on previous generations.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Part of the purpose of this game is to learn about the history of the sport, so people don’t just reflexively shit on previous generations.

And my contention is that the best way to do that isn't to compare Frank Nighbor toe to toe with Pavel Bure and imagine them playing against each other. To me it's a disservice to their contributions, rather than a celebration. Maybe I just need to wrap my head around it differently.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If we are trying to kill this thing why would we draft Larose here? Go Brendl or Boulerice.

 

[UnSandvich]

If we are trying to kill this thing why would we draft Larose here? Go Brendl or Boulerice.

Well, since I was specifically told by one of your forum mods last night to ignore the votes that are clearly trolling, you can vote for whoever you want. Being honest, I expected the Islanders board to be the one that would try to kill this, but they didn't care to.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Yzerman and Malkin are a step down from the caliber of center we should be taking in the 1st round of an all time draft.

FWIW, the ATD board has played this game every year for like 15 years, and have all but optimized the order of the first few rounds. Most recently they picked Nighbor 22, Yzerman 30, Kharlamov 45, Dryden 59, Malkin 85.

Out of curiosity, where does Bobrov go in that draft?

And I just saw the link.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

If we are not aloud to troll my vote is for Valeri Kharlamov

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Agreed, no trolling.

Get those Dryden votes out of there. I guess Larose would be the clubhouse leader if we remove the trolls?

 

[UnSandvich]

If we are not aloud to troll my vote is for Valeri Kharlamov

Oh, you're allowed to troll if you want, I just can't guarantee I'll count them. Because once one board gets their troll vote in, the rest of them will assume it's ok, and then there goes the Draft.

 

[The Stranger]

Yzerman and Malkin are a step down from the caliber of center we should be taking in the 1st round of an all time draft.

FWIW, the ATD board has played this game every year for like 15 years, and have all but optimized the order of the first few rounds. Most recently they picked Nighbor 22, Yzerman 30, Kharlamov 45, Dryden 59, Malkin 85.

How do you go about optimizing an all time draft? Do you just mean that the people participating have settled on their subjective opinion with minimal bickering?

Have to admit, I didn't even know about Nighbor prior to this discussion...which as you point out is part of the value of the exercise.

I'm now aware of his existence, his career numbers, and awards...still don't understand the logic of picking him ahead of Yzerman and many others.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Out of curiosity, where does Bobrov go in that draft?

And I just saw the link.

My guess (having not participated in that draft so only looking at it superficially) is that his low draft position has to do with team construction.

He was taken close to guys like Gary Dornhoefer, Milan Lucic, Scott Hartnell, Dustin Brown, and the team that finally took Bobrov has him skating on their 4th line. It looks like he didn't quite make the cut as a top-6 scorer, and is a weird fit for a 4th line, so he dropped until the BPA factor was too much to ignore.

And my contention is that the best way to do that isn't to compare Frank Nighbor toe to toe with Pavel Bure and imagine them playing against each other. To me it's a disservice to their contributions, rather than a celebration. Maybe I just need to wrap my head around it differently.

There just isn't much to learn from only comparing Nighbor or Bure to their own peers. That has already been lived through, and we have the results on paper. "Where does Bure rank among 90s-00s wingers?" gives us a lot less to think about than "Where does Bure rank among wingers all-time?".

I think everyone realizes that if you literally time-warped Newsy Lalonde into a game in 2020, he'd probably struggle to even keep up with the play. But that principle works the other way as well. Yeah, "Iron Chest" Tarrington (lol) would be a dismal goalie in 2020. But that doesn't mean Lundqvist would be a superstar in 1920. Imagine playing butterfly with no mask and kneecaps smashing the ice every time he went down. He'd finish the game in the hospital, say "**** this", and embark on a modeling career.

The same applies to skaters. Yes, from a purely objective standpoint Ovechkin moves faster and shoots harder than Nighbor did. Now imagine what it would look like if he played the full 60 minutes without a break, on Starr skates with a flat-bladed wooden stick and virtually no padding. And can't skate ahead of the puck at any point. And can only receive the puck via drop-pass. Is he still more effective than a guy who actually lived and trained in that environment and was the best player in the world? Maybe... but it's a stretch to think he'd truly dominate the game.

The point of ATD is to give players full credit for existing at the time and place they did, performing at the highest level possible in their lived experience. It's just a thought experiment to give us some basis for making all-time comparisons without getting into the weeds of what Bobby Hull could have done with a composite stick.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Oh, you're allowed to troll if you want, I just can't guarantee I'll count them. Because once one board gets their troll vote in, the rest of them will assume it's ok, and then there goes the Draft.

Then restrict to a list of eligible players.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

Oh, you're allowed to troll if you want, I just can't guarantee I'll count them. Because once one board gets their troll vote in, the rest of them will assume it's ok, and then there goes the Draft.

Kharlamov will be my official pick then. Very canes type pick (looking at this years draft) high first round skill with just a question of size

 

[the halleJOKEL]

my non troll pick will be chad larose

 

[tarheelhockey]

How do you go about optimizing an all time draft? Do you just mean that the people participating have settled on their subjective opinion with minimal bickering?

I'm not exaggerating when I say the ATD board is probably the most petty, bickering group on this entire website. It's part of the reason I spend a lot of time on the History board but not ATD.

The optimization comes from 15 years of:
- Deep research on each player to figure out their strengths and weaknesses, with receipts
- Competitive levels of peer review, which eliminates B.S. narratives very quickly (again... receipts)
- 15 years of game theory applied to roster construction

So while there is definitely a ton of bickering, it generally doesn't happen in the part of the draft where there's a pretty fine-tuned idea of how the players relate to each other in terms of both rankings and in terms of how they combine to make a competitive team.

Have to admit, I didn't even know about Nighbor prior to this discussion...which as you point out is part of the value of the exercise.

I'm now aware of his existence, his career numbers, and awards...still don't understand the logic of picking him ahead of Yzerman and many others.

Simply, Nighbor compares best to Bobby Clarke or Stan Mikita. Good as Yzerman was (and he was!) he generally rates slightly below Clarke and Mikita.

 

[MinJaBen]

Well, since I was specifically told by one of your forum mods last night to ignore the votes that are clearly trolling, you can vote for whoever you want. Being honest, I expected the Islanders board to be the one that would try to kill this, but they didn't care to.

I'm assuming our obscure trolling will still be allowed, even if our clear trolling is not, correct?

 

[DaveG]

Out of curiosity, where does Bobrov go in that draft?

And I just saw the link.

Not to go too tangential but one of the big trends I've noticed in those projects when I took part is that a lot of the non NHA/PCHA/NHL stars from the formative eras of their respective countries are still shit all over a bit for being a big fish on a small pond. The guys from 72 on are given their proper due typically, but some of the big stars from before that don't get the credit they deserve. Even some of the guys like Jan Suchy are undervalued.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'm assuming our obscure trolling will still be allowed, even if our clear trolling is not, correct?

Tomas Malec is my new vote

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Chad LaRose

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

I vote for Lad ChaRose