NFL players happy with their cap

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copperandblue

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I thought this may be worth posting.

I think even some of the most avid cap supporters have held the opinion that considering the NFL revenues, the system in the NFL is probably the most unfair CBA for professional athletes out there.

Yet NFLPA president Troy Vincent says that they do not see this as being the case and are actually in negotiations for an extension.

Yes I know this from the NHL CBA site but it was based on a Sportsnet interview that will air on October 11th.

http://nhlcbanews.com/news/nflpa100804.html
 

mr gib

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copperandblue said:
I thought this may be worth posting.

I think even some of the most avid cap supporters have held the opinion that considering the NFL revenues, the system in the NFL is probably the most unfair CBA for professional athletes out there.

Yet NFLPA president Troy Vincent says that they do not see this as being the case and are actually in negotiations for an extension.

Yes I know this from the NHL CBA site but it was based on a Sportsnet interview that will air on October 11th.

http://nhlcbanews.com/news/nflpa100804.html
However, in a videotaped interview shown on Sportsnet, Vincent said, "It's two sides working together" - show this to gary bettman
 

quat

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mr gib said:
However, in a videotaped interview shown on Sportsnet, Vincent said, "It's two sides working together" - show this to gary bettman

What does that mean? The " We're ready to negotiate anything that we want to negotiate" ploy?

At this point it's clear neither side is willing to go to the table.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Troy Vincent may be happy with the NFL Bargaining agreement, but that's because he's one of the truly elite players in the league.

In the NFL the top 3-7 players on each team often take up to 50% of a teams salary cap, leaving another 50% for the remaining 50 players.

Also they have no guarunteed contracts, the worst pension and retirement/health benefits.
 

bigd

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I think it works very well in the NFL. It has made for a very competitive league. A team with loads of money can't buy there way to the top. It also prevents players like Ricky Williams from waking out on his team thinking he has 8.6 million in the bank. Now he has to come out of retirement. What a shame!
 

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The NFL salary cap is directly tied to television revenue. Run that by the NHLPA and see how far it'll go.
 

ehc73

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MacDaddy Version 1.3 said:
The NFL salary cap is directly tied to television revenue. Run that by the NHLPA and see how far it'll go.
And with the sad sad TV deal the NHL just got, saying what works for the NFL can work for the NHL is a terrible attempt at comparison.
 

mr gib

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copperandblue said:
I thought this may be worth posting.

I think even some of the most avid cap supporters have held the opinion that considering the NFL revenues, the system in the NFL is probably the most unfair CBA for professional athletes out there.

Yet NFLPA president Troy Vincent says that they do not see this as being the case and are actually in negotiations for an extension.

Yes I know this from the NHL CBA site but it was based on a Sportsnet interview that will air on October 11th.

http://nhlcbanews.com/news/nflpa100804.html
of course the nfl are happy with their cap - they get SIGNING bonus's that by-pass the system -

DUH
 

thinkwild

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Vincent as player rep would seem to go a long way in explaining why the NFL has the most revenues and lowest paid athletes. Two sides working together beforehand? So thats what those scabs playing were doing when the owners broke your union Troy Working together beforehand? Well Troy, it seems Bettman and the owners do want to work together beforehand just like they did for you.

Sure the NFL players are happy splitting a $17bil tv contract all to themselves. Im sure hockey players would too.

I hear over and over, people complaining about the cap in football. The complaints are all encompassing. Am I the only one who sees them? I think they have been saying things about it we should listen to and consider.


Here was one good article from Pro Footbal Weekly worth reading I think.
NFL Cap a joke


In practice, of course, the salary cap has been shot full of holes, almost as many holes as the NBA’s cap.

From the players’ perspective, it has produced a system in which the stars receive an even more disproportionate share of the pie than ever, whereas the above-average veterans who have gradually worked their way into the middle of the salary range are sacrificed in favor of cheaper, marginal players. It’s survival of the fittest, but often even those who deserve to survive don’t.

From the standpoint of establishing a level playing field, that’s a joke too the amount of money each club spends on player salaries bears little resemblance to the salary cap. In fact, 17 of the 31 NFL teams will surpass the $62.7 million estimated cap in 2000

Level playing field? Hah.

The rich get richer indeed. The Redskins are worth a Billion dollars now. And have a $80mil payroll. Pretty good deal for the owner. Nice negotiating there Troy. Im sure even though your house has tripled in market value, you'll sell me to for just a few thousand more. You dont really need all that money do you?



Or how about this one complaining about add-up-the-payroll day in the NFL The whole thing is worth reading, here's a snippet.

NFL Cap blows


The NFL salary cap still blows.

This is an unscientific opinion, delivered without the assistance of a certified capologist or even a glossary of "designated franchise player" terms. The salary cap blows. Its implementation in the NFL's offseason extends to football fans all the salutary benefits of a grenade lobbed into an outhouse.

And this week simply smells. It isn't about football in the slightest. It's about roster-wrecking. It's about money, a subject which is interesting usually only when 1) it's yours that we're talking about and 2) you're making it in such bucket-loads that you actually need advice on what to do with it all.

Bling Bling! send em packing.

That will be great for trade deadline day. OK teams. I know you think you have a missing piece, but today is the day you all even out your payolls by shuffling players around so thats everyones financial expenses are the same After all fans come because the books are balanced. Accounting is the most important goal, not team building or becoming great.
 
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thinkwild

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Here was a great heartfelt plea from a real fan

The Downside of Parity


The other leagues are supposed to be jealous.

The NFL hails parity as a way to keep the casual fan interested
But to hell with parity - I miss the juggernauts. I miss watching teams dominate the regular season, creating a playoff atmosphere dripping with anticipation and the chance for eternal grid-iron glory. Those playoff games were events, match-ups of incredible teams that could give rise to that other d-word, dynasty. Dynasties, or the threat of them, make the playoffs that much more enticing.

And I'm not that picky. I don't need a team to win the whole enchilada every year. I just want prolonged excellence. The Purple People Eaters, the K-Gun Offense - they both failed in four Super Bowls, but I'll take any of it these days. Dynasties brought you the Immaculate Reception, the West Coast Offense, and the NFL's all-time leading rusher. Love them or hate them, great teams are exciting. They bring out passion, fervor, exhilaration. They bring you the NFL we know and love.

Parity, on the other hand, has brought you ... well, it's brought you this year's NFL.

The problem, of course, is that it's symptomatic of mediocrity - everybody gets their eight wins because nobody is any good. It means there are no juggernaut match-ups, no unplug-the-phone games to anticipate and savor. No NFL that we know and love.

No NFL that we know and love. I know I've lost a lot of interest. Seems they're saying the cap didnt turn out as great as they would have thought.


This next guy has a really interesting article. The whole thing is worth reading, heres a snippet.

NFL cap promotes mediocrity



End-zone dancing should no longer worry the NFL. It has bigger problems to look at.
The NFL has become more and more like a snowflake, pretty on the outside with its colorful uniforms and marketing-generated enthusiasm, but brittle on the inside as fans start catching on to the league's act.

The No Fun League now stands for the overall boring product the league puts on the field.

The new reality in the NFL has made teams much more even, but that redistribution of wealth has killed much of the drama.

Teams routinely move from worst to first in a season. Free agency and the salary cap kills any chance of founding a dynasty. Those dynasties turned the the NFL into the money-making fiend it is today

Agents determine winning and losing teams more than coaches in this day and age.


Bor-ing. I find it quite an enlightening perpective. And its one of many. Here's another one.

Anyway NFL slices it, Cap means Mediocrity

The National Football League has broken new ground in the area of marketing. At least I've never heard of a billion-dollar corporation that sells itself with a consumer campaign of "If you want mediocrity, buy us."

Then again, give credit here for truth in advertising.

If you mouse around on geek-net these days, what you find is a familiar theme being repeated in various NFL cities.

Concessions of football mediocrity are rampant by players, coaches and media.
The basic message is:
"OK, we're not so good, but that makes us a playoff contender."
It's true too.

Kind of had to pull that one out of ol Dave. He doesnt want to badmouth the league, but when you push him on it, he's kind of frustrated with it too.

All these quotes are coming from fans or people in football who love their game. Not from someone like me with an agenda to highlight their foibles.

The only people who seem to think the NFL cap is a good thing are hockey fans terrified their owner will bankrupt themselves and they will lose their team because he cant manage players salaries like he does in the other businesses that made him a billionaire.

What does Troy Vincent say about all these? Why dont hockey fans ever talk about this side of the realities of the cap instead of how they think it will work in theory.

Edit: Please do not post more than a paragraph or two from articles, otherwise it's a copyright violation, thanks
 
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codswallop

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thinkwild said:
Kind of had to pull that one out of ol Dave. He doesnt want to badmouth the league, but when you push him on it, he's kind of frustrated with it too.

All these quotes are coming from fans or people in football who love their game. Not from someone like me with an agenda to highlight their foibles.

The only people who seem to think the NFL cap is a good thing are hockey fans terrified their owner will bankrupt themselves and they will lose their team because he cant manage players salaries like he does in the other businesses that made him a billionaire.

What does Troy Vincent say about all these? Why dont hockey fans ever talk about this side of the realities of the cap instead of how they think it will work in theory.

Trying to make a direct comparison between the NFL and the NHL is kinda absurd, don't you think? They are sports, other than that they don't have much of anything in common. The "realities" that one league has to deal with are vastly different from the "realities" of the other. Even if they both had a salary cap, it wouldn't play out the same way for both leagues. And even if a cap were somehow implemented in the bargaining agreement, chances are pretty damn good that it and the rest of the agreement would be structured quite differently than in the NFL. The comparison doesn't fly.

I've got another rant about how people around here use assumptions and "what if" scenarios as if they were factual, trying to rationalizing a point or theory of their own while conveniently ignoring the realities of this current situation. But I'll save that one for a later time though.
 

Buffaloed

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John Flyers Fan said:
Troy Vincent may be happy with the NFL Bargaining agreement, but that's because he's one of the truly elite players in the league.

In the NFL the top 3-7 players on each team often take up to 50% of a teams salary cap, leaving another 50% for the remaining 50 players.

Also they have no guarunteed contracts, the worst pension and retirement/health benefits.

An overwhelming majority of NFL players wouldn't have ratified their CBA in 1993 and voted to extend it in 1998 if they thought it was a bad deal. When they approved their CBA in 1993, the vote count was 952 in favor of the CBA and only 34 against. The elite players may love the CBA, but an awful lot of non-elite ones must be happy with it.

This looks like a pretty good pension for players that weren't even a party to the NFL CBA:

# March/April, 1998 - Four-year players added, in all 1,000 players - 10% increase in pension for all retirees. Every eligible player since 1920 is covered.
# January 2002 - Minimum $200 a month per season played or $800 per month minimum ratified, retroactive to September 1, 2001. Levels the pension playing field for all eligible retirees from 1920 through 1982.
http://www.nflpa.org/retired/includeu/accomplishments_include.asp
The NHL CBA only has benefits for "senior" retired players dating back to 1985. The earlier ones have to rely on begging from the NHLPA assistance fund.


Players since 1993 also receive an annuity payment that starts at age 35 or 5 years after retirement that pays them quite well during "mid-retirement" years and the minimum pension a 4 year player will collect on actual retirement at age 55 is $1700 per month.
http://www.nflpa.org/media/main.asp?subPage=Post-Career+Benefits

Under the now expired NHL CBA the pension plan provided roughly half of what NHL player get, and pre-1985 players aren't even covered. They may receive money from the NHLPA assistance fund, but the NFLPA also has an assistance fund that's better than the NHLPA's.
 

YellHockey*

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Buffaloed said:
An overwhelming majority of NFL players wouldn't have ratified their CBA in 1993 and voted to extend it in 1998 if they thought it was a bad deal.

Then why did NHL owners do the same thing with their CBA and are now claiming that its a bad deal?
 

Epsilon

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The incessant whining that followed Paul Kariya's free agency signing with the Avalanche has convinced me that while hockey fans can talk a good talk about wanting a system like the NFL's, they are not prepared to deal with all the consequences of it. The Kariya situation, deemed so unfair and disloyal by so many, is business as usual in the NFL system.
 

Seachd

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BlackRedGold said:
Then why did NHL owners do the same thing with their CBA and are now claiming that its a bad deal?
Different economic situation, for starters.
 

Street Hawk

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Epsilon said:
The incessant whining that followed Paul Kariya's free agency signing with the Avalanche has convinced me that while hockey fans can talk a good talk about wanting a system like the NFL's, they are not prepared to deal with all the consequences of it. The Kariya situation, deemed so unfair and disloyal by so many, is business as usual in the NFL system.

NFL fans are now used to seeing players come and go. I mean, no matter how good your team is, of your 47 man roster, a good 20 - 25% are turned over each year. You have your 7 draft picks, plus the guys you sign and lose via Free Agency.

It would take NHL fans time to get used to the NFL system if it gets implemented. Also, College players are basically set to go once they arrive in the NFL. In hockey, you have to spend more time developing that player, so that kind of affects the loyalty factor too.

In terms of the topic of why a CAP works in Football, I think there are several factors:

1) Shorter Season - every game matters. Being the 2 top teams in your conference is a huge deal because you get the bye week in the opening round of the playoffs. Then there's home field advantage for the other 2 division winners, plus just making the playoffs for the 2 wildcard teams. In hockey, you play 5 games for each NFL game and there's no benefit for the division winners since playing on the Road in hockey is advantageous to the Underdog since they can play a more conservative, defensive game.

2) Fewer playoff teams - Only 12 teams make it out of 32 in the NFL, 37.5% of teams, versus, 53.3% in Hockey.

These first 2 points are huge because although fans have their favorite player for their team, they ultimately care about winning. You can be an Eagles fan, and a Terrell Owens fan, but you don't care if he only catches 1 pass for 5 yards, so long as the Eagles win the game. If he does that for 2 or 3 games, then it matters.

The NFL players realized during their strike that NFL fans care about the team, not the players. That's where hockey went wrong in the Mid to Late 90's, when the NHL said/bought the line of "People come to see Player X play". That was true when Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc. were doing their thing, but as the league went defensive, elite players went games without doing much. Football fans are a what have you done for me lately mind set, so when the Titans let Eddie George go, fans had no troubling letting him go since his production was dropping for a couple of years and his replacement was ready to go.

A couple of great players in either sport won't take a team over the top. You need everything working. In the NFL, you can have a great QB and WR, but if your O-Line can't block and you have no running game, you won't go far. Same goes for the Defensive side. You can have great corners, but with no pass rush, you'll eventually get burned. In hockey, you need strong PK, and PP and secondary scoring and great goaltending to win.

3) Gambling... NFL doesn't talk about it, but that's a huge part of the attraction of the NFL. Not only do you bet who will win, but you have to be weary if they can cover the point spread, which keeps people interested in following all of the games.

4) NFL teams are owned by single individuals not corporations. John Davidson brought this point up for Sportsnet last week when discussing the differences between the 2 leagues. Therefore, as a single owner, the Revenue for the team will be very clear. In hockey, corporations as owners are prominant, so the numbers sometimes get mixed with other businesses.

5) And without a CAP, Packers probably wouldn't have been able to stay in Green Bay and keep what for a long period of time, was the Best player in football in Bret Favre for a dozen years.
 

Buffaloed

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BlackRedGold said:
Then why did NHL owners do the same thing with their CBA and are now claiming that its a bad deal?

A one-time revernue source of $320 million in expansion fees was behind the NHL owners extending their CBA. Now they either need another revenue source or to decrease spending. They grabbed the short-term gain and chose to overlook the long-term pain. It doesn't look like they'll land the big TV contract they've been hoping for, or any other substantial new revenue source.
 

dawgbone

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thinkwild said:
The other leagues are supposed to be jealous.

The NFL hails parity as a way to keep the casual fan interested
But to hell with parity - I miss the juggernauts. I miss watching teams dominate the regular season, creating a playoff atmosphere dripping with anticipation and the chance for eternal grid-iron glory. Those playoff games were events, match-ups of incredible teams that could give rise to that other d-word, dynasty. Dynasties, or the threat of them, make the playoffs that much more enticing.

And I'm not that picky. I don't need a team to win the whole enchilada every year. I just want prolonged excellence. The Purple People Eaters, the K-Gun Offense - they both failed in four Super Bowls, but I'll take any of it these days. Dynasties brought you the Immaculate Reception, the West Coast Offense, and the NFL's all-time leading rusher. Love them or hate them, great teams are exciting. They bring out passion, fervor, exhilaration. They bring you the NFL we know and love.

Parity, on the other hand, has brought you ... well, it's brought you this year's NFL.

The problem, of course, is that it's symptomatic of mediocrity - everybody gets their eight wins because nobody is any good. It means there are no juggernaut match-ups, no unplug-the-phone games to anticipate and savor. No NFL that we know and love.

Not sure what NFL this person you quoted is watching...

What do you consider the New England Patriots?

How about the defence in Baltimore that has been as dominating as any defence in league history?

How about the Green Bay Packers, who despite being in a very small community are perenial contenders?

The Eagles?

The Broncos of the late 90's?

The Dallas Cowboys of the early to mid 1990's?

Not only did all these teams have incredible success, but all of them have also had ups and downs. The Cowboys, after the end of their dynasty, struggled mightily when they attempted to rebuild... and finally have started to turn it around.

The difference between the NFL and NHL dynasties? You can't always write a cheque in the NFL to re-tool your team when one player retires. Sometimes you have to actually rebuild... which allows other teams, who have been rebuilding, and retooling a chance. You aren't getting all their best players (and reducing them back to the starting point), in order to keep your team afloat.
 

YellHockey*

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Buffaloed said:
A one-time revernue source of $320 million in expansion fees was behind the NHL owners extending their CBA. Now they either need another revenue source or to decrease spending. They grabbed the short-term gain and chose to overlook the long-term pain. It doesn't look like they'll land the big TV contract they've been hoping for, or any other substantial new revenue source.

And how much has the NFL brought in from expansion fees during the same time?

Once again, how does the NFL players extending the CBA from 93 to the present signify that they are still happy with the agreement when the NHL owners have done the same but are unhappy with their agreement?
 

Brent Burns Beard

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dawgbone said:
The difference between the NFL and NHL dynasties? You can't always write a cheque in the NFL to re-tool your team .

actually, mean just like in the NHL. which team was saved by simply writing a cheque and never had to build their team ? i mean, which succesful team.

dr
 

Sotnos

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BlackRedGold said:
And how much has the NFL brought in from expansion fees during the same time?
No idea, but the NFL has a HUGE TV contract that basically covers all player salaries. They don't need expansion fees to cover operating expenses.

The NHL used expansion fees to cover operating costs and to postpone looking at a system that wasn't working. Now that's dried up, like Buff said, they either need to lower costs or generate some other income.

Once again, how does the NFL players extending the CBA from 93 to the present signify that they are still happy with the agreement when the NHL owners have done the same but are unhappy with their agreement?
Apples and oranges. You can see by the votes that the vast majority of NFL players were happy with their agreement. The NHL owners extended the agreement as a cash grab, hard to tell if they were happy about it or not, but they did it anyway. They were just postponing the inevitable. I don't see what these two events have to do with each other.

------------------

Some of you might be interested in the Forbes valuations of sports teams, it looks like the NFL numbers are new this month.

For comparison's sake:
Highest valued NHL Team
Rangers $272mil revenue $113

Lowest valued NFL Team
Cardinals $552mil revenue $131
(Redskins valued at over a billion now :eek: )

Forbes Sports Franchise Values
That page links to numbers for all sports. To quote from that page: "Clearing a profit in the NFL is as easy as falling forward". Bit different from the NHL.
 
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