NFL players happy with their cap

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by copperandblue, Oct 8, 2004.

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  1. copperandblue

    copperandblue Registered User

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    I thought this may be worth posting.

    I think even some of the most avid cap supporters have held the opinion that considering the NFL revenues, the system in the NFL is probably the most unfair CBA for professional athletes out there.

    Yet NFLPA president Troy Vincent says that they do not see this as being the case and are actually in negotiations for an extension.

    Yes I know this from the NHL CBA site but it was based on a Sportsnet interview that will air on October 11th.

    http://nhlcbanews.com/news/nflpa100804.html
     
  2. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    However, in a videotaped interview shown on Sportsnet, Vincent said, "It's two sides working together" - show this to gary bettman
     
  3. quat

    quat winsome, loathsome

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    What does that mean? The " We're ready to negotiate anything that we want to negotiate" ploy?

    At this point it's clear neither side is willing to go to the table.
     
  4. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Troy Vincent may be happy with the NFL Bargaining agreement, but that's because he's one of the truly elite players in the league.

    In the NFL the top 3-7 players on each team often take up to 50% of a teams salary cap, leaving another 50% for the remaining 50 players.

    Also they have no guarunteed contracts, the worst pension and retirement/health benefits.
     
  5. bigd

    bigd Registered User

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    I think it works very well in the NFL. It has made for a very competitive league. A team with loads of money can't buy there way to the top. It also prevents players like Ricky Williams from waking out on his team thinking he has 8.6 million in the bank. Now he has to come out of retirement. What a shame!
     
  6. The NFL salary cap is directly tied to television revenue. Run that by the NHLPA and see how far it'll go.
     
  7. ehc73

    ehc73 Registered User

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    And with the sad sad TV deal the NHL just got, saying what works for the NFL can work for the NHL is a terrible attempt at comparison.
     
  8. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    same for the current NHL CBA.

    dr
     
  9. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    of course the nfl are happy with their cap - they get SIGNING bonus's that by-pass the system -

    DUH
     
  10. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    amen
     
  11. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    Vincent as player rep would seem to go a long way in explaining why the NFL has the most revenues and lowest paid athletes. Two sides working together beforehand? So thats what those scabs playing were doing when the owners broke your union Troy Working together beforehand? Well Troy, it seems Bettman and the owners do want to work together beforehand just like they did for you.

    Sure the NFL players are happy splitting a $17bil tv contract all to themselves. Im sure hockey players would too.

    I hear over and over, people complaining about the cap in football. The complaints are all encompassing. Am I the only one who sees them? I think they have been saying things about it we should listen to and consider.


    Here was one good article from Pro Footbal Weekly worth reading I think.
    NFL Cap a joke


    The rich get richer indeed. The Redskins are worth a Billion dollars now. And have a $80mil payroll. Pretty good deal for the owner. Nice negotiating there Troy. Im sure even though your house has tripled in market value, you'll sell me to for just a few thousand more. You dont really need all that money do you?



    Or how about this one complaining about add-up-the-payroll day in the NFL The whole thing is worth reading, here's a snippet.

    NFL Cap blows


    Bling Bling! send em packing.

    That will be great for trade deadline day. OK teams. I know you think you have a missing piece, but today is the day you all even out your payolls by shuffling players around so thats everyones financial expenses are the same After all fans come because the books are balanced. Accounting is the most important goal, not team building or becoming great.
     
    Last edited by moderator Sotnos: Oct 11, 2004
  12. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    Here was a great heartfelt plea from a real fan

    The Downside of Parity


    No NFL that we know and love. I know I've lost a lot of interest. Seems they're saying the cap didnt turn out as great as they would have thought.


    This next guy has a really interesting article. The whole thing is worth reading, heres a snippet.

    NFL cap promotes mediocrity




    Bor-ing. I find it quite an enlightening perpective. And its one of many. Here's another one.

    Anyway NFL slices it, Cap means Mediocrity

    Kind of had to pull that one out of ol Dave. He doesnt want to badmouth the league, but when you push him on it, he's kind of frustrated with it too.

    All these quotes are coming from fans or people in football who love their game. Not from someone like me with an agenda to highlight their foibles.

    The only people who seem to think the NFL cap is a good thing are hockey fans terrified their owner will bankrupt themselves and they will lose their team because he cant manage players salaries like he does in the other businesses that made him a billionaire.

    What does Troy Vincent say about all these? Why dont hockey fans ever talk about this side of the realities of the cap instead of how they think it will work in theory.

    Edit: Please do not post more than a paragraph or two from articles, otherwise it's a copyright violation, thanks
     
    Last edited by moderator Sotnos: Oct 11, 2004
  13. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    thanks for the links - great reading -
     
  14. quat

    quat winsome, loathsome

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    Slurp slurp slurp This koolaid tastes good... but kind of funny. :)
     
  15. cws

    cws ...in the drink

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    Trying to make a direct comparison between the NFL and the NHL is kinda absurd, don't you think? They are sports, other than that they don't have much of anything in common. The "realities" that one league has to deal with are vastly different from the "realities" of the other. Even if they both had a salary cap, it wouldn't play out the same way for both leagues. And even if a cap were somehow implemented in the bargaining agreement, chances are pretty damn good that it and the rest of the agreement would be structured quite differently than in the NFL. The comparison doesn't fly.

    I've got another rant about how people around here use assumptions and "what if" scenarios as if they were factual, trying to rationalizing a point or theory of their own while conveniently ignoring the realities of this current situation. But I'll save that one for a later time though.
     
  16. Buffaloed

    Buffaloed webmaster

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    An overwhelming majority of NFL players wouldn't have ratified their CBA in 1993 and voted to extend it in 1998 if they thought it was a bad deal. When they approved their CBA in 1993, the vote count was 952 in favor of the CBA and only 34 against. The elite players may love the CBA, but an awful lot of non-elite ones must be happy with it.

    This looks like a pretty good pension for players that weren't even a party to the NFL CBA:

    The NHL CBA only has benefits for "senior" retired players dating back to 1985. The earlier ones have to rely on begging from the NHLPA assistance fund.


    Players since 1993 also receive an annuity payment that starts at age 35 or 5 years after retirement that pays them quite well during "mid-retirement" years and the minimum pension a 4 year player will collect on actual retirement at age 55 is $1700 per month.
    http://www.nflpa.org/media/main.asp?subPage=Post-Career+Benefits

    Under the now expired NHL CBA the pension plan provided roughly half of what NHL player get, and pre-1985 players aren't even covered. They may receive money from the NHLPA assistance fund, but the NFLPA also has an assistance fund that's better than the NHLPA's.
     
  17. YellHockey*

    YellHockey* Guest

    Then why did NHL owners do the same thing with their CBA and are now claiming that its a bad deal?
     
  18. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    The incessant whining that followed Paul Kariya's free agency signing with the Avalanche has convinced me that while hockey fans can talk a good talk about wanting a system like the NFL's, they are not prepared to deal with all the consequences of it. The Kariya situation, deemed so unfair and disloyal by so many, is business as usual in the NFL system.
     
  19. Seachd

    Seachd Registered User

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    Different economic situation, for starters.
     
  20. Street Hawk

    Street Hawk Registered User

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    Have to get used to it....

    NFL fans are now used to seeing players come and go. I mean, no matter how good your team is, of your 47 man roster, a good 20 - 25% are turned over each year. You have your 7 draft picks, plus the guys you sign and lose via Free Agency.

    It would take NHL fans time to get used to the NFL system if it gets implemented. Also, College players are basically set to go once they arrive in the NFL. In hockey, you have to spend more time developing that player, so that kind of affects the loyalty factor too.

    In terms of the topic of why a CAP works in Football, I think there are several factors:

    1) Shorter Season - every game matters. Being the 2 top teams in your conference is a huge deal because you get the bye week in the opening round of the playoffs. Then there's home field advantage for the other 2 division winners, plus just making the playoffs for the 2 wildcard teams. In hockey, you play 5 games for each NFL game and there's no benefit for the division winners since playing on the Road in hockey is advantageous to the Underdog since they can play a more conservative, defensive game.

    2) Fewer playoff teams - Only 12 teams make it out of 32 in the NFL, 37.5% of teams, versus, 53.3% in Hockey.

    These first 2 points are huge because although fans have their favorite player for their team, they ultimately care about winning. You can be an Eagles fan, and a Terrell Owens fan, but you don't care if he only catches 1 pass for 5 yards, so long as the Eagles win the game. If he does that for 2 or 3 games, then it matters.

    The NFL players realized during their strike that NFL fans care about the team, not the players. That's where hockey went wrong in the Mid to Late 90's, when the NHL said/bought the line of "People come to see Player X play". That was true when Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc. were doing their thing, but as the league went defensive, elite players went games without doing much. Football fans are a what have you done for me lately mind set, so when the Titans let Eddie George go, fans had no troubling letting him go since his production was dropping for a couple of years and his replacement was ready to go.

    A couple of great players in either sport won't take a team over the top. You need everything working. In the NFL, you can have a great QB and WR, but if your O-Line can't block and you have no running game, you won't go far. Same goes for the Defensive side. You can have great corners, but with no pass rush, you'll eventually get burned. In hockey, you need strong PK, and PP and secondary scoring and great goaltending to win.

    3) Gambling... NFL doesn't talk about it, but that's a huge part of the attraction of the NFL. Not only do you bet who will win, but you have to be weary if they can cover the point spread, which keeps people interested in following all of the games.

    4) NFL teams are owned by single individuals not corporations. John Davidson brought this point up for Sportsnet last week when discussing the differences between the 2 leagues. Therefore, as a single owner, the Revenue for the team will be very clear. In hockey, corporations as owners are prominant, so the numbers sometimes get mixed with other businesses.

    5) And without a CAP, Packers probably wouldn't have been able to stay in Green Bay and keep what for a long period of time, was the Best player in football in Bret Favre for a dozen years.
     
  21. Buffaloed

    Buffaloed webmaster

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    A one-time revernue source of $320 million in expansion fees was behind the NHL owners extending their CBA. Now they either need another revenue source or to decrease spending. They grabbed the short-term gain and chose to overlook the long-term pain. It doesn't look like they'll land the big TV contract they've been hoping for, or any other substantial new revenue source.
     
  22. dawgbone

    dawgbone Registered User

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    Not sure what NFL this person you quoted is watching...

    What do you consider the New England Patriots?

    How about the defence in Baltimore that has been as dominating as any defence in league history?

    How about the Green Bay Packers, who despite being in a very small community are perenial contenders?

    The Eagles?

    The Broncos of the late 90's?

    The Dallas Cowboys of the early to mid 1990's?

    Not only did all these teams have incredible success, but all of them have also had ups and downs. The Cowboys, after the end of their dynasty, struggled mightily when they attempted to rebuild... and finally have started to turn it around.

    The difference between the NFL and NHL dynasties? You can't always write a cheque in the NFL to re-tool your team when one player retires. Sometimes you have to actually rebuild... which allows other teams, who have been rebuilding, and retooling a chance. You aren't getting all their best players (and reducing them back to the starting point), in order to keep your team afloat.
     
  23. YellHockey*

    YellHockey* Guest

    And how much has the NFL brought in from expansion fees during the same time?

    Once again, how does the NFL players extending the CBA from 93 to the present signify that they are still happy with the agreement when the NHL owners have done the same but are unhappy with their agreement?
     
  24. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    actually, mean just like in the NHL. which team was saved by simply writing a cheque and never had to build their team ? i mean, which succesful team.

    dr
     
  25. Sotnos

    Sotnos Registered User

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    No idea, but the NFL has a HUGE TV contract that basically covers all player salaries. They don't need expansion fees to cover operating expenses.

    The NHL used expansion fees to cover operating costs and to postpone looking at a system that wasn't working. Now that's dried up, like Buff said, they either need to lower costs or generate some other income.

    Apples and oranges. You can see by the votes that the vast majority of NFL players were happy with their agreement. The NHL owners extended the agreement as a cash grab, hard to tell if they were happy about it or not, but they did it anyway. They were just postponing the inevitable. I don't see what these two events have to do with each other.

    ------------------

    Some of you might be interested in the Forbes valuations of sports teams, it looks like the NFL numbers are new this month.

    For comparison's sake:
    Highest valued NHL Team
    Rangers $272mil revenue $113

    Lowest valued NFL Team
    Cardinals $552mil revenue $131
    (Redskins valued at over a billion now :eek: )

    Forbes Sports Franchise Values
    That page links to numbers for all sports. To quote from that page: "Clearing a profit in the NFL is as easy as falling forward". Bit different from the NHL.
     
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