Next Season: Outsider's Take

[oconnor9sean]

Stars fan here with a few questions.

For 5 years before last year, the Stars were terrible. However, the team never admitted they were bad. When Jim Nill pulled some magic, we went from bad to playoff bound in one offseason.

The Stars never admitted to being in a rebuild, and their actions proved that they weren't rebuilding. They advertised the team by saying that this year was going to be different and the team would make it to the playoffs, but they continued to suck.

My question is this:

With a team like the Sabres or Flames, who have kinda been in true rebuild mode recently, how does management sell the team to the fans? Obviously HF fans can grasp the concept of a rebuild, but for the uneducated fans (sadly, the majority), does management try to sell promise for the season, or do they just hope that people get that the bad years are for the better.

PS: thought about this while re-watching "Goon", because the Highlanders have the Sabres' goal horn.

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[Beerz]

Stars fan here with a few questions.

For 5 years before last year, the Stars were terrible. However, the team never admitted they were bad. When Jim Nill pulled some magic, we went from bad to playoff bound in one offseason.

The Stars never admitted to being in a rebuild, and their actions proved that they weren't rebuilding. They advertised the team by saying that this year was going to be different and the team would make it to the playoffs, but they continued to suck.

My question is this:

With a team like the Sabres or Flames, who have kinda been in true rebuild mode recently, how does management sell the team to the fans? Obviously HF fans can grasp the concept of a rebuild, but for the uneducated fans (sadly, the majority), does management try to sell promise for the season, or do they just hope that people get that the bad years are for the better.

PS: thought about this while re-watching "Goon", because the Highlanders have the Sabres' goal horn.

Sabres brass has been very clear to the fans that they are in a rebuild and don't sell false high hopes (both last year and this year)

 

[OhreallyOrielly]

Stars fan here with a few questions.

For 5 years before last year, the Stars were terrible. However, the team never admitted they were bad. When Jim Nill pulled some magic, we went from bad to playoff bound in one offseason.

The Stars never admitted to being in a rebuild, and their actions proved that they weren't rebuilding. They advertised the team by saying that this year was going to be different and the team would make it to the playoffs, but they continued to suck.

My question is this:

With a team like the Sabres or Flames, who have kinda been in true rebuild mode recently, how does management sell the team to the fans? Obviously HF fans can grasp the concept of a rebuild, but for the uneducated fans (sadly, the majority), does management try to sell promise for the season, or do they just hope that people get that the bad years are for the better.

PS: thought about this while re-watching "Goon", because the Highlanders have the Sabres' goal horn.

It helps to be in a hockey mad market. The building has, and this is off the top my head so the numbers may be off, about 12,000 season tickets. There's also a multi-year wait for season tickets. So the season ticket holders ride it out. They don't want to give up their seats and not be able to get back in once the team is good again.

The more casual fans may sit it out. But, there's enough diehards to get bye. Couple that with an owner who isn't obsessed with the bottom line and the situation isn't that dire. Plus, we had a regime change and you can always sell youth and potential.

 

[stokes84]

Darcy Regier sold tried to sell fans on the idea "suffering" to get the players we need. He sort of took one for the team, because while most agree that this is the proper direction for long term success, he was also a very convenient scape goat for the mess. Now we have a new GM and coach who are "cleaning up Darcy's mess". In reality, it gives them a nice little buffer zone of low expectations for at least another season.

It's a double-edged strategy (strategy may not be the right word, it's just how things feel together maybe). Fans that clamor for "win now" can see the new direction and Free agent signings and see progress. Fans that see the long term strategy of being bad again are confident we are still on the right path.

 

[stokes84]

Sabres brass has been very clear to the fans that they are in a rebuild and don't sell false high hopes (both last year and this year)

They don't sell false hope, but they do sell that losing is unacceptable. Otherwise, Regier would still be here.

 

[Paxon]

Management, starting with our long-time GM Darcy Regier who was fired last fall, has essentially sold what's going on in a straightforward and legitimate manner. That is to say, there's no attempt to sugarcoat that we're rebuilding in order to sell people on the team short-term. Management has been saying what's being done is necessary to best ensure a strong foundation for sustained success. This has been reiterated many times one way or another by our new GM, Tim Murray, and team president Ted Black.

Specifically, our new GM has stated since taking over that we are rebuilding, and that short-term expectations aren't centered around winning a Cup or making the playoffs. He went into the offseason saying that he wants to make the team more competitive and wants to see improvement in the quality of play, even if the improvement isn't reflected much in the standings. His statements about timeframe more or less have always indicated that the 2014 and 2015 drafts are crucial, not just because we were likely to pick high with our own selection, but because of all the early round picks we held in those drafts. You can infer from that -- he said it directly anyhow -- that being in the "rebuild mode" of hoarding assets essentially ends with the 2015 draft. From then on you can assume management and the fanbase will start judging by tangible progress in the standings. I believe the public is generally understanding of this, and that the pitchforks will mostly stay sheathed unless the 2015-2016 season shows us to again be a clear bottom 5 team.

Buffalo is a small market, but it's also a strong one. We may not have a large population from which to draw in casual fans or create legions of new serious fans, but there are enough entrenched, serious fans that, coupled with our billionaire owner who is OK absorbing any short-term loss, there's no need to try and sugarcoat things to sell tickets. There is still a wait list of at least 1,000 people for season tickets. Games may not be selling out, but there aren't concerns of medium or long-term damage to the fanbase like some markets might legitimately have. So long as season tickets continue to sell out, nothing else is going to skip a beat the moment the team appears to be on the rise.

 

[JThorne]

No goal?

There is still a waiting list on season tickets here. Buffalo fans are smart fans. They know what the plan is. Hell, even Darcy used the word "suffering" to describe these few seasons.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Stars fan here with a few questions.

For 5 years before last year, the Stars were terrible. However, the team never admitted they were bad. When Jim Nill pulled some magic, we went from bad to playoff bound in one offseason.

The Stars never admitted to being in a rebuild, and their actions proved that they weren't rebuilding. They advertised the team by saying that this year was going to be different and the team would make it to the playoffs, but they continued to suck.

My question is this:

With a team like the Sabres or Flames, who have kinda been in true rebuild mode recently, how does management sell the team to the fans? Obviously HF fans can grasp the concept of a rebuild, but for the uneducated fans (sadly, the majority), does management try to sell promise for the season, or do they just hope that people get that the bad years are for the better.

PS: thought about this while re-watching "Goon", because the Highlanders have the Sabres' goal horn.

Our management has been very straight forward with the fans. Regier told us there would be "suffering". The fan base is largely on board, and even if they weren't, Pegula's interest isn't in making money, it's making a winner.

 

[Bps21*]

They haven't had to sell very hard...fans are largely all on board with doing a rebuild the right way. It isn't hard to see that success can be had that way. I think it helps that the city sports scene has been largely without a superstar for some time. When the biggest star your town has had in the last decade in football or hockey is a goaltender? You get down with getting top of the draft talent pretty easily. We've also seen what not doing It results in and are tired of racing to 8th and failing more often than not. I'd rather finish last every year and have the hope of turning it around with top end talent one day than finish in goddamned 9th one more time.

 

[ZeroPT*]

They basically came out and said " oh btw we're kinda gonna suck next year Sooo yeah"

 

[Man of Principles]

Nobody has to be warmed up to the idea as long as they keep drafting correctly.

 

[Selanne00008]

Stars fan here with a few questions.

For 5 years before last year, the Stars were terrible. However, the team never admitted they were bad. When Jim Nill pulled some magic, we went from bad to playoff bound in one offseason.

The Stars never admitted to being in a rebuild, and their actions proved that they weren't rebuilding. They advertised the team by saying that this year was going to be different and the team would make it to the playoffs, but they continued to suck.

My question is this:

With a team like the Sabres or Flames, who have kinda been in true rebuild mode recently, how does management sell the team to the fans? Obviously HF fans can grasp the concept of a rebuild, but for the uneducated fans (sadly, the majority), does management try to sell promise for the season, or do they just hope that people get that the bad years are for the better.

PS: thought about this while re-watching "Goon", because the Highlanders have the Sabres' goal horn.

Question back to you as I don't know too much about the Stars as I do even other Western Conf. teams. If you guys were stuck in mediocrity for years or borderline sucking, how did you pull off becoming a playoff team without rebuilding? Bottom line is in Buffalo the hard core fans were basically screaming rebuild as guys like Vanek wouldn't take us to the promise land. And while I agree, what other formula to success is their besides rebuilding.

What were the actions taking that did not scream rebuild, but did make you into a possible mid-tier playoff team? Seguin trade? Great drafting? (Nich)

 

[Uberpecker]

Nobody has to be warmed up to the idea as long as they keep drafting correctly.

That's the key, I think. The Sabres are already sporting arguably the best prospect pipeline in the NHL right now, and that's even before the three (!) first rounders in 2015.
Just look at some people's reaction on here where they already accuse the Sabres of unfairly tanking when they only had one top 5 pick, yet. I don't recall anyone saying that about the Oilers, and they've had three 1sts overall in a row.

 

[DazedandConfused]

Question back to you as I don't know too much about the Stars as I do even other Western Conf. teams. If you guys were stuck in mediocrity for years or borderline sucking, how did you pull off becoming a playoff team without rebuilding? Bottom line is in Buffalo the hard core fans were basically screaming rebuild as guys like Vanek wouldn't take us to the promise land. And while I agree, what other formula to success is their besides rebuilding.

What were the actions taking that did not scream rebuild, but did make you into a possible mid-tier playoff team? Seguin trade? Great drafting? (Nich)

They hit a home-run and drafted a found-out-to-be top-2 talent and picked him up in the 5th-round and they didn't give up much for a top-2 pick just coming off his ELC. Same goal here they just executed it differently, but they still have holes to fill to come out of the west.

They're by no means a powerhouse squad but they'll be competitive in the west for sure.

 

[haseoke39]

Yeah, to more or less reiterate what others have said, there are two main messages:

1) We expect to be picking at the top of the draft. Even the owner had a quote to the News about how someone convinced him that's where you needed to be if you wanted to build around Crosbys and Doughtys and Toews'.

2) We are instilling high work ethic and making players really earn their spots. So you have the coach rehired who gave us the hardest working team in our history in the '90s, you have young guys who had been given spots too early sent back down, you have a lot of depth players brought in via UFA and waivers to create competition.

Between those two messages, there's a little something for everyone. We're honest about being bad, but we're also being very careful to cultivate a good culture and an enjoyable bad team to watch.

I don't know if there's a way to measure how much the fanbase is placated by these messages, but I don't think it particularly matters. The beauty of being able to build up a season ticket wait list in the thousands is that even people who hate what's happening are heavily incentivized against quitting on the team. Nobody wants the team to be good again and then have to wait five years to get your tickets back.

 

[old kummelweck]

It's timing and economics. Sabres fans have suffered marginal playoff teams for a few years prior to ownership and management change. The previous regime had to market the team much in the same way as the Dallas Stars brass did, that is a hard-working team that's goal was to make the playoffs and attempted to fix the team through trades, ho-hum free agent signings and crappy draft position. They didn't have the deep pockets of the current owner to tank, and when they did, the perception of the Sabres as a team that couldn't win kept away free agents. The coach had been here too long, the GM had been here too long. Everyone was fed up. Even when the last GM started the tank, people had no faith.

New ownership and new management means good will from the fans. I'll be honest, the Sabres lost my interest three or four years ago, and it really wasn't until they cleaned house did I regain interest. They are enjoying a honeymoon right now, as no one has played any hockey. But lets see how people feel on New Years Day if we can continue to stomach the rebuild. I think most fans know there is a franchise-changing draft pick available at the top in 2015, so we may have a little more tolerance, however that's not everyone and we may see people lose patience if we end up out of the lottery and out of the playoffs as we always did with the old regime.

 

[TehDoak]

If I wanted an outsiders take I'd read the Buffalo news

Honestly though, they really haven't sugar coated it. Murray expects the team to be "Better" and "More competitive" next year, which, with how bad they were last year, isn't really a lofty goal.

We will see how it goes. I think a bottom 5 finish is pretty much a guarantee at this point.

 

[EichHart]

I've been a Sabres fan since birth. Since then we have been toiling in mediocrity. (Aside from 99 and 05-07) For the 25+ years I've been a fan of this team the only thing I remember aside from those seasons was finishing 7th-10th and getting knocked out in the 1st round. This is all the while never having a true "star" player aside from Hasek who was a pure "luck" trade. It's such a refreshing thought to have a all star player for 15+ years on this team and to have several is such an insane thought in which this organization hasn't had since the French Connection. Briere and Drury were fine pieces and had great individual seasons with us but they were never top echelon players in this league.

The Buffalo area is an insane hockey town and this rebuilding plan has been adapted quite easily in this area because of the facts stated above. We know the "suffering" is hard to deal with at first but having 3 1st rounders in this upcoming draft is going to be totally worth it. Especially to have a shot at that franchise type player in McDavid/Eichel.

 

[joshjull]

Darcy Regier sold tried to sell fans on the idea "suffering" to get the players we need. He sort of took one for the team, because while most agree that this is the proper direction for long term success, he was also a very convenient scape goat for the mess. Now we have a new GM and coach who are "cleaning up Darcy's mess". In reality, it gives them a nice little buffer zone of low expectations for at least another season.


It's a double-edged strategy (strategy may not be the right word, it's just how things feel together maybe). Fans that clamor for "win now" can see the new direction and Free agent signings and see progress. Fans that see the long term strategy of being bad again are confident we are still on the right path.

I agree there was definitely a PR benefit to Regier getting fired. But it wasn't the reason he was fired. Properly developing the talent you acquire from the tear down and drafting is as important as the drafting high during a rebuild. On that front Regier was botching things badly.

For whatever reason he chose to push a bunch of kids into the NHL with an inexperienced coach. That things became a mess should't be a shock to anyone. ANd it was a mess. All he needed to do was bring in a layer of placeholder vets to ensure whats best for each young players development was what was decided. But since he left so many roster spots available with minimal to no competition. He pretty much guaranteed the kids would make the roster. In some cases, like Grigorenko, Regier flat out said he was guaranteed a spot. All of that was reversed first when Patty L/Nolan came in and was continued under Murray. Making the team now is going to be a battle for any youngster. They also have options now to put players where they feel its best for their development.

Regier did an incredible job during the tear down acquiring the talent that made us one of, if not, the best prospect pool in the league going into the 2014 draft. That he was so daft in his approach to developing that talent is the reason he was thankfully fired.

 

[stokes84]

I agree there was definitely a PR benefit to Regier getting fired. But it wasn't the reason he was fired. Properly developing the talent you acquire from the tear down and drafting is as important as the drafting high during a rebuild. On that front Regier was botching things badly.

For whatever reason he chose to push a bunch of kids into the NHL with an inexperienced coach. That things became a mess should't be a shock to anyone. ANd it was a mess. All he needed to do was bring in a layer of placeholder vets to ensure whats best for each young players development was what was decided. But since he left so many roster spots available with minimal to no competition. He pretty much guaranteed the kids would make the roster. In some cases, like Grigorenko, Regier flat out said he was guaranteed a spot. All of that was reversed first when Patty L/Nolan came in and was continued under Murray. Making the team now is going to be a battle for any youngster. They also have options now to put players where they feel its best for their development.

Regier did an incredible job during the tear down acquiring the talent that made us one of, if not, the best prospect pool in the league going into the 2014 draft. That he was so daft in his approach to developing that talent is the reason he was thankfully fired.

I agree with almost everything here, but it was the losing, being as bad as they were, that directly got him fired. Whether the losing was brought about by what you said is another story. I don't think the message from him being fired was that prospects were being mishandled, it was that you can't keep your job after building a team that performs this way. The fans won't accept it and neither can ownership.

 

[Chainshot]

I agree there was definitely a PR benefit to Regier getting fired. But it wasn't the reason he was fired. Properly developing the talent you acquire from the tear down and drafting is as important as the drafting high during a rebuild. On that front Regier was botching things badly.

For whatever reason he chose to push a bunch of kids into the NHL with an inexperienced coach. That things became a mess should't be a shock to anyone. ANd it was a mess. All he needed to do was bring in a layer of placeholder vets to ensure whats best for each young players development was what was decided. But since he left so many roster spots available with minimal to no competition. He pretty much guaranteed the kids would make the roster. In some cases, like Grigorenko, Regier flat out said he was guaranteed a spot. All of that was reversed first when Patty L/Nolan came in and was continued under Murray. Making the team now is going to be a battle for any youngster. They also have options now to put players where they feel its best for their development.

Regier did an incredible job during the tear down acquiring the talent that made us one of, if not, the best prospect pool in the league going into the 2014 draft. That he was so daft in his approach to developing that talent is the reason he was thankfully fired.

Not only the position of the rookies and prospects pushed into the lineup, it was him not doing due diligence in finding a coach to guide and prepare that team. He failed miserably with the Rolston extension as we saw by how the team responded under Ron's *ahem* guidance. The combination of the on-ice unpreparedness and rushed youngsters sank him. He has a lot of experience winning trades, in taking a long view of development, and in eeking into playoff position. His lack of experience at interviewing/hiring coaches and installing a full rebuild was evident.

Yes, Murray gets the benefit of a number of Regier's trade wins, not the least of which was the Vanek fleecing that hasn't even yet paid off. However, outside of that... Regier needed to go.

 

[Paxon]

I think firing Regier was a combination of things:
1. He'd been here forever and maybe Pegula, having let go (or agreed to let go) of Ruff, probably came to realize that it was time for a change in spite of his initial approach.

2. Change is good for business in these situations even if the Sabres weren't primarily concerned with short-term issues. [edit: to clarify, by "short-term issues" I mean financially, attendance, etc]

3. The opening to the season was such a disaster. The permanent hiring of Rolston without a coaching search was a complete disaster. Too many kids up + Rolston at the reins caused a situation where the team not only sucked but players were checked out and upset.

I'm not sure one of these factors alone would have been enough to get him fired. You could say to an extent that Rolston being fired is also due to a multitude of similar reasons besides just not doing a good job. Replacing him and Regier allowed the team to wash away the stink of the start of the season and give some immediate sense of a new direction and hope, even if the timeframe for the rebuild did not change at all.

 

[old kummelweck]

Regier or Murray, I think at this point the big question is whether the Sabres can develop the talent they draft.