Proposal: New structure for KHL and Europe

[Lackhalak]

I have always thought that Europe/Russia has always been a mixed bag of non sense with regards to all the different leagues and structures. I have suggested/thought that the KHL should expand into Europe with full force and holes have been poked in those ideas, such as it would ruin most of the leagues in Europe such as the SHL and Liiga. So my new idea is to create 4 leagues with 3 relegation tiers of 20 teams.

For exmaple:
Combine the SHL, Liiga, Metal Ligaen, Get Ligaen and the Baltics to create one 60 team league with three 20 team tiers. The league could have approximately 24 SHL teams, 18 Liiga teams, 6 teams from each of Norway, Denmark and the Baltics.

The 3 other leagues would be:
- A Russian league that includes Belarus, Kazakhstan, China ect. (this league could possibly not adopt the relegation system but should still be only 20 teams in the top league)
-A central European league that includes Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Poland, Slovenia, Hungary and possibly Croatia.
-A Western European league consisting of Switzerland, Germany, Italy, France, UK, and possibly Belgium and the Netherlands

In the top leagues, teams would play each other twice (2*19=38) and possibly 10 games from the other 3 leagues (5 home 5 away) for 30 games. A season could be 68 total games. Top 4 in each league would make enter into the playoffs and the 4 league winners would compete in a playoffs for a total of 4 rounds.

The bottom 2-5 teams in a higher league could play the top 2-5 teams from the lower league in a one round playoff to decide relegation.

I know this is just daydreaming but I would be way more interested European hockey if this was the structure. Just imagine a Nordic league with top teams like Frolunda, TPS Turku, Djurgarden, Helsinki Jokerit, Tampere Ilves, Malmo Red Hawks, Dinamo Riga, and possible new teams such as a team in Royal Arena in Copenhagen.

Click to read more...

 

[SoundAndFury]

What a new and exciting idea! Wonder how did no one came up with it before.

 

[Rigafan]

There are many issues but the main one that comes up is the fans just do not care for this type of structure. Why should we? Just look at the Champions Hockey League and all the versions before it, they never work out.

So I'm Dinamo Riga, why do I want to see them play Grenoble? It doesn't make any sense to me, I'm afraid.​

 

[Lackhalak]

There are many issues but the main one that comes up is the fans just do not care for this type of structure. Why should we? Just look at the Champions Hockey League and all the versions before it, they never work out.

So I'm Dinamo Riga, why do I want to see them play Grenoble? It doesn't make any sense to me, I'm afraid.​

Haha, dont be afraid. Riga would love this new structure because their travel would be reduced significantly and they would mostly play against top teams in sweden and finland. I think fans would love this structure as they still get relegation, but on a grander scale. Champions league sucks because for example the top teams in sweden plays weaker teams than in their regular league.

 

[Lackhalak]

What a new and exciting idea! Wonder how did no one came up with it before.

Im looking to have a fun discusion, dont be a dick

 

[Section Netherlands]

I mean, it sounds cool and all. But how do you expect this to fare with the fans? Swedes are definitely not interested in seeing their teams play against any other countries teams.

And, with your structure, there will be some horrible balancing. SHL and Liiga will dominate the Scandinavian one. Russia the eastern one. Czechia the central one. Germany and Switzerland the western one. If you force countries with a high interest, quality, and money with countries that do not have this, then you're just killing whatever interest there already is in those countries already

 

[Rigafan]

Haha, dont be afraid. Riga would love this new structure because their travel would be reduced significantly and they would mostly play against top teams in sweden and finland. I think fans would love this structure as they still get relegation, but on a grander scale. Champions league sucks because for example the top teams in sweden plays weaker teams than in their regular league.

For Riga specifically to be in some type of Nordic league doesn't sound that strange (location wise anyway) there is simply no history to say, Riga vs Tampere or Stockholm. Riga being in the Russian/KHL System makes sense, because Dinamo Riga of old and their history and past. Sure this version of Riga is new but with the history of the country it fits to play in the Russian system.

Riga vs Moscow will bring out more fans and emotion than Riga vs Oslo

 

[Lackhalak]

I mean, it sounds cool and all. But how do you expect this to fare with the fans? Swedes are definitely not interested in seeing their teams play against any other countries teams.

And, with your structure, there will be some horrible balancing. SHL and Liiga will dominate the Scandinavian one. Russia the eastern one. Czechia the central one. Germany and Switzerland the western one. If you force countries with a high interest, quality, and money with countries that do not have this, then you're just killing whatever interest there already is in those countries already

I don't think it would be that unbalanced. For example: in the top nordic division (20 teams) there would probably only be 3 to 6 teams from Norway, Denmark and the Baltics all together.
That would also apply to the other 2 leagues

 

[Lackhalak]

For Riga specifically to be in some type of Nordic league doesn't sound that strange (location wise anyway) there is simply no history to say, Riga vs Tampere or Stockholm. Riga being in the Russian/KHL System makes sense, because Dinamo Riga of old and their history and past. Sure this version of Riga is new but with the history of the country it fits to play in the Russian system.

Riga vs Moscow will bring out more fans and emotion than Riga vs Oslo

Fair points. Riga would still play 10 games a year vs Russian teams. Also for Balancing and travel reasons, I think Riga would be one of the biggest beneficiaries to my idea.

I also think Riga vs Frolunda would bring out just as many fans as a Moscow game

 

[SoundAndFury]

Im looking to have a fun discusion, dont be a dick

If that is so you could have written what do you think the way to make it viable is in the OP. Now it's just a list of country names. Unless you are willing to fund all those teams that's where the discussion begins and ends.

Edit: oh you are the same guy with the pipe dream list back in May. Have you considered any of the critique given about your idea back then or you just added even more teams to make a bigger list?

 

[Exarz]

1. Have you done some kind of due diligence of European hockey before posting this?
2. How would this be funded?
3. How would it be viable to have top league containing 60 teams when the CHL is a quite good example of how low the interest is in playing against teams?

Haha, dont be afraid. Riga would love this new structure because their travel would be reduced significantly and they would mostly play against top teams in sweden and finland. I think fans would love this structure as they still get relegation, but on a grander scale. Champions league sucks because for example the top teams in sweden plays weaker teams than in their regular league.

1. Would Riga even be alive in this scenario, considering that they would basically switch from a Russian league to a "Nordic league" considering that Gazprom Export is bankrolling the club? What interest would Gazprom have in a Latvian club not taking part in a Russian league?
2. If the CHL sucks becuase top teams in Sweden play weaker teams than in their regular league, how would it be different if they would face teams from the other Nordic countries since teams from Denmark and Norway are no way near the SHL level? The same argument could be applied for mid-teams in Liiga as well.

 

[Atas2000]

The major problem here would be political. Certain european countries would choose to lose an arm and a leg rather than having a hockey league together with Russia.

This is like a 100 year plan to develop european hockey. You'd have to promote the game in several countries to grow it to a certain level, overcome political issues, build some structure that would intrest fans in different countries to actually watch games of their teams agains teams from other european countries and find the money that would fund it all.

 

[alko]

Tradition speaks against it.

To have some multi-culti-national league that works, you have to create some super cool Trophy everybody will speak about. To do it in short time, you must have money. A lot of money. Lets say, the winner will win the trophy and also 20 millions €. Looser 10 millions.
Every franchise will be donated with millions € for participation.

Then you will create a interest and the teams in Europe will be eager to play in such league. Because they will know, it will have financial effect. Owners will be in profit and it wouldn't be a dark hole anymore.

Just like Championship League in soccer.

 

[vorky]

The major problem here would be political. Certain european countries would choose to lose an arm and a leg rather than having a hockey league together with Russia.

That is the crucial moment.

The biggest issue is that certain Europeans are not ready for cooperation with Russians/KHL. They want the Russians to pay for everything while all decisions would be made by Europeans. I see a big difference between this attitude and Russians´ who want to cooperate, so sharing costs & dividing revenues. Of course, the KHL is not in a position to accept such European´s attitude for any cost. Now Europe is losing.

It is evident now that the KHL leadership made a mistake, being too naive, at the beginning when they expected the Europeans having the same goal & courage - making a strong European club league. Luckily, they realised this mistake soon.

 

[Dofs]

The major problem here would be political. Certain european countries would choose to lose an arm and a leg rather than having a hockey league together with Russia.

While I agree that there would be less desire amongst European countries to form a league with Russia nowadays due to politics, let's not ignore the Russian side of things here. The KHL that was created with a goal of creating a united European league is long gone, it died in 2014 when people who actually believed in the idea and worked towards it were replaced with those who had an old Soviet mentality of treating the league as nothing more than a prop for a national team (no doubt the current political climate played a role in it) with all the consequences like an appearance of a national team base club.

The KHL is now back to being an open Russian league with just retaining the brand, those in charge of it don't treat it separately from Team Russia, don't look at it separately and are not interested in developing it without the context of World Championships and Olympics. Hence as there is little desire for a united league from European side, there is also little desire from the Russian side too.

 

[Atas2000]

While I agree that there would be less desire amongst European countries to form a league with Russia nowadays due to politics, let's not ignore the Russian side of things here. The KHL that was created with a goal of creating a united European league is long gone, it died in 2014 when people who actually believed in the idea and worked towards it were replaced with those who had an old Soviet mentality of treating the league as nothing more than a prop for a national team (no doubt the current political climate played a role in it) with all the consequences like an appearance of a national team base club.

The KHL is now back to being an open Russian league with just retaining the brand, those in charge of it don't treat it separately from Team Russia, don't look at it separately and are not interested in developing it without the context of World Championships and Olympics. Hence as there is little desire for a united league from European side, there is also little desire from the Russian side too.

You completely misunderstand everything you write about here.

1.The KHL was NOT created with that goal. It is impossible still and it was then. Such Utopias even the most optimistic guys would not pursue. The idea was to attract as many different nations and teams as possible(and explicitly not only from Europe btw), not creating a pan-european league.

2.No matter how those people worked towards the idea, they never had the means. And it was painfully obvious and a total waste of resources.

3.You say soviet like it's a bad thing. Oh, dear Lord, how wonderful it would be if we put people with the soviet mentality in charge.

4.The league IS the base for developing players for the national teams. And it should be. I just don't see how it would contradict the idea of having a league with teams from other european and asian countries though.

5.What great role has politics played there? In this case certainly none. The political climate influence is very simple. Every attempt of the KHL to go into basically EU terrotory is met if not with anger then with firm rejection form the european side. I could not care less actually. Why would we need someone who does not wnat to be with us? And the recent antics by Jokerit just add to that feeling. In my book we should kick Jokerit out like yesterday. Yet they get preferential treatment by people who you claim to be not interested in expanding the league.

6.There is no national team base club. That's a fine little narrative.

7.The KHL always was "just" an open russian league with the vast majority of teams being from Russia.

8.World Champinionships and Olympics are what all our hockey should be for. Period. The last thing I want is a money driven cancer to international hockey like the NHL.

 

[Rigafan]

-A central European league that includes Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Poland, Slovenia, Hungary and possibly Croatia.
-A Western European league consisting of Switzerland, Germany, Italy, France, UK, and possibly Belgium and the Netherlands

A Central Euro league is probably possible, I guess the Austrian league is trying to do such a thing. You'd have to remove Czech as their league would still be better no doubt.

Western.. now the UK/Netherlands/Belgium have apparently talked about creating some 'North Sea Cup' type league a few times but nothing has ever come of it. Again it may be possible but you would need to exclude Swiss, Germany from this idea

 

[Dofs]

You completely misunderstand everything you write about here.

Sure, lol

1.The KHL was NOT created with that goal. It is impossible still and it was then. Such Utopias even the most optimistic guys would not pursue. The idea was to attract as many different nations and teams as possible(and explicitly not only from Europe btw), not creating a pan-european league.

Yes it was the goal, Medvedev even had a trip around Europe with a presentation of his 60-something pan-European team league. Heck, it's even in its name. Attracting teams from different nations was a means to this end goal.

2.No matter how those people worked towards the idea, they never had the means. And it was painfully obvious and a total waste of resources.

Wow, you just claimed in literally your previous sentence that they didn't work towards the idea, while apparently wasting resources when doing it, lmao.

3.You say soviet like it's a bad thing. Oh, dear Lord, how wonderful it would be if we put people with the soviet mentality in charge.

Of course trying to apply an old Soviet approach in building a nation team in current times is not only bad, it's frankly stupid and only holds back Russian hockey.

4.The league IS the base for developing players for the national teams. And it should be. I just don't see how it would contradict the idea of having a league with teams from other european and asian countries though.

The thing here is it being the base for developing players for the national team. Which is fine, but also blatantly shows no desire for a united European league. Because a united European league would obviously not prioritize developing Russian national team.

5.What great role has politics played there? In this case certainly none. The political climate influence is very simple. Every attempt of the KHL to go into basically EU terrotory is met if not with anger then with firm rejection form the european side. I could not care less actually. Why would we need someone who does not wnat to be with us? And the recent antics by Jokerit just add to that feeling. In my book we should kick Jokerit out like yesterday. Yet they get preferential treatment by people who you claim to be not interested in expanding the league.

Russian hockey had two camps between 2008 and 2014: KHL and FHR. They were separate from each other, had different priorities from each other and often were in conflict with each other. KHL prioritized developing the league, FHR prioritized preparations for the World Championships and Olympics. Russian hockey was in the balance of compromises between the two. Around 2014 a heavy push towards patriotism began in Russian politics, which also indicated a bigger emphasis on Russia's representation in international events. As a result, the FHR camp won, the KHL's leadership was changed and FHR hence are basically running KHL ever since. The KHL as a separate league was no more, it essentially went back to being a Russian league under control of FHR like in good old days (just with some few foreign clubs added into the mix).

6.There is no national team base club. That's a fine little narrative.

Ah yes, Rotenberg denied it to be a base club, he claimed it's the nation team's donor instead, lmao. But we all now what it is in reality.

7.The KHL always was "just" an open russian league with the vast majority of teams being from Russia.

In practice yes.

8.World Champinionships and Olympics are what all our hockey should be for. Period. The last thing I want is a money driven cancer to international hockey like the NHL.

There should be a middle ground between both extremes. Such disregard for international play like NHL is stupid but you can't disregard the league for the national team simply because you will not have a good national team without a good league in the first place. This is what these Soviet veterans in charge of Russian hockey nowadays don't understand, looking back at Soviet times where this actually worked under unique Soviet circumstances but are impossible today. The result of this is this year's loss to Canadian third-liners in WHC. And I predict only worse results in the future.

 

[Atas2000]

Sure, lol


Yes it was the goal, Medvedev even had a trip around Europe with a presentation of his 60-something pan-European team league. Heck, it's even in its name. Attracting teams from different nations was a means to this end goal.

Wow, you just claimed in literally your previous sentence that they didn't work towards the idea, while apparently wasting resources when doing it, lmao.

Of course trying to apply an old Soviet approach in building a nation team in current times is not only bad, it's frankly stupid and only holds back Russian hockey.

The thing here is it being the base for developing players for the national team. Which is fine, but also blatantly shows no desire for a united European league. Because a united European league would obviously not prioritize developing Russian national team.

Russian hockey had two camps between 2008 and 2014: KHL and FHR. They were separate from each other, had different priorities from each other and often were in conflict with each other. KHL prioritized developing the league, FHR prioritized preparations for the World Championships and Olympics. Russian hockey was in the balance of compromises between the two. Around 2014 a heavy push towards patriotism began in Russian politics, which also indicated a bigger emphasis on Russia's representation in international events. As a result, the FHR camp won, the KHL's leadership was changed and FHR hence are basically running KHL ever since. The KHL as a separate league was no more, it essentially went back to being a Russian league under control of FHR like in good old days (just with some few foreign clubs added into the mix).


Ah yes, Rotenberg denied it to be a base club, he claimed it's the nation team's donor instead, lmao. But we all now what it is in reality.


In practice yes.

There should be a middle ground between both extremes. Such disregard for international play like NHL is stupid but you can't disregard the league for the national team simply because you will not have a good national team without a good league in the first place. This is what these Soviet veterans in charge of Russian hockey nowadays don't understand, looking back at Soviet times where this actually worked under unique Soviet circumstances but are impossible today. The result of this is this year's loss to Canadian third-liners in WHC. And I predict only worse results in the future.

Your pan-european dies with Kazachstan and China. It was never meant to be a european league, neither would many european teams agree to be in a league with asian teams because of the sheer distance. Who cares which trips Medevedev made? Promoting a new league is what you do. You contradict yourself. Attracting teams from different nations and a pan-european league are different things. You said it youself it was a "merely" open league. That's what it always was. It is attracting teams from different countries. It was always that and nothing more.

They wasted resources on attracting totally useless teams that were not to stay instead of abandoning that idea altogether and developing russian hockey instead. I will never forgive them kicking out Novokuznetsk and Yugra. Attracting a couple of teams from Europe does not make it more than the austrian league for example.

What would bring russian hockey forward in your opinion? I am eager to hear the propositions.

Last I checked Jokerit did not have many russian players. Or for that matter a lot of KHL teams give opportunities for players from many european countries to play in a better league. You can't possibly claim that great emphasis on the russian NT somehow hinders other nations' NTs.

LOL "Heavy push towards patriotism" is from which text book? The KHL's leadership was changed because they were overspending and not delivering. Chernyshenko was brought in as an experienced expenses cutter. You may argue if that was the right way to go, but it had nothing to do with some political issues whatsoever. And Chernyshenko delivered exactly what was expected of him. Cutting expenses, making the league more profitable and the financial structure more stable.

Again, there is nothing wrong with KHL being a russian league.

How about CSKA? AkBars? Avangard? MMG? All base clubs? "We all know" is a pretty cheap rhetorical device and it mostly followed by a subjective statement the speaker has no proof or does not want to deliver proof for. The reality is way more complex than that simple SKA haterism.

In practisce is exactly what reality is. It can call itself Universal Hockey league or Hockey league of All the Russias, it does not change squat.

The results at WHC have absolutely nothing to do with the FHR.

 

[vorky]

While I agree that there would be less desire amongst European countries to form a league with Russia nowadays due to politics, let's not ignore the Russian side of things here. The KHL that was created with a goal of creating a united European league is long gone, it died in 2014 when people who actually believed in the idea and worked towards it were replaced with those who had an old Soviet mentality of treating the league as nothing more than a prop for a national team (no doubt the current political climate played a role in it) with all the consequences like an appearance of a national team base club.

The KHL is now back to being an open Russian league with just retaining the brand, those in charge of it don't treat it separately from Team Russia, don't look at it separately and are not interested in developing it without the context of World Championships and Olympics. Hence as there is little desire for a united league from European side, there is also little desire from the Russian side too.

I will quote the KHL website saying: "The Kontinental Hockey League is an international tournament created to further the development of hockey throughout Russia and other nations across Europe and Asia." That is a strategic goal. It has never changed. Yes, there are differences between Medvedev & post-Medvedev. They are using different methods as I said in other thread.

You talk about 2014, but the change happened when Gennady Timchenko was appointed the KHL Board of Directors Chairman. I believe it was in 2012. It has nothing to do with FHR. Chernyshenko & Morozov are just guys picked by Timchenko to run the league on daily basis. But all strategic decisions like expansion or salary cap etc are made by Timchenko. Of course, formally it is made by KHL BoD whose formal & informal leader is Timchenko. If your thesis was correct, there would not be the salary cap to give you just one example.

 

[alko]

Central Euro league is probably possible

2 Years ago i thought, there is something in making. 2 Hungary teams in Slovakia and there was talk about Poland and Ukraine interests. But now, Hungary teams are gone...

 

[Dofs]

Your pan-european dies with Kazachstan and China.

What? A few Chinese and Kazakh clubs out of 60+ European clubs would not make it a pan-European league somehow? Are you arguing about semantics here, lmao?

Who cares which trips Medevedev made? Promoting a new league is what you do. You contradict yourself. Attracting teams from different nations and a pan-european league are different things. You said it youself it was a "merely" open league. That's what it always was. It is attracting teams from different countries. It was always that and nothing more.

Who cares what the director of the league says and does? Is this supposed to be a joke? And yes, it was "merely" an open league in practice. But I am talking about long-term plans and goals of KHL in the beginning.

They wasted resources on attracting totally useless teams that were not to stay instead of abandoning that idea altogether and developing russian hockey instead. I will never forgive them kicking out Novokuznetsk and Yugra. Attracting a couple of teams from Europe does not make it more than the austrian league for example.

I am not seeing how it's to the discussion. So what if you don't like it?

What would bring russian hockey forward in your opinion? I am eager to hear the propositions.

I am not going start a long discussion in a thread that has nothing to do with it.

Last I checked Jokerit did not have many russian players. Or for that matter a lot of KHL teams give opportunities for players from many european countries to play in a better league. You can't possibly claim that great emphasis on the russian NT somehow hinders other nations' NTs.

Is KHL a united European league or did I miss something?

LOL "Heavy push towards patriotism" is from which text book?

From the Bible of course.

The KHL's leadership was changed because they were overspending and not delivering. Chernyshenko was brought in as an experienced expenses cutter. You may argue if that was the right way to go, but it had nothing to do with some political issues whatsoever. And Chernyshenko delivered exactly what was expected of him. Cutting expenses, making the league more profitable and the financial structure more stable.

Specifically Chernyshenko might have been brought to cut expenses, it doesn't change the fact that KHL has lost its voice and power as a separate entity.

Again, there is nothing wrong with KHL being a russian league.

And I flat out said that it's perfectly fine to have a Russian league for the interests of Russia's hockey. Not sure you understand what the argument is about. The main point of what I was telling is that there is a no will in KHL for a united European league since Medvedev has gone. I am not telling that it's bad for Russian hockey or anything like that. I don't like the way Russian hockey is run right now but it's a separate issue from having or not having a pan-European league.

How about CSKA? AkBars? Avangard? MMG? All base clubs?

What about them?

"We all know" is a pretty cheap rhetorical device and it mostly followed by a subjective statement the speaker has no proof or does not want to deliver proof for. The reality is way more complex than that simple SKA haterism.

The reality is way more complex than the Soviet style base club that existed back in USSR. SKA still has a "special" place in the league with its relation to the national team and that's not only undeniable, it's frankly acknowledged by everyone. Except for you, I guess?

The results at WHC have absolutely nothing to do with the FHR.

But of course.