New ECHL Franchises: Mariners (Rangers) vs. Growlers (Leafs) Differing Approaches

Growler

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May 16, 2018
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As much as I would like to say that it was the wave of the future, I will still have to see it prolonged before believing it. But I have to say the last 4 ECHL champions were very well taken care of roster wise by their affiliates. Personally I think it makes sense to develop a few depth AHL guys in the ECHL. It certainly can't hurt. And if a rich team like Toronto wants to throw money at it, I say by all means. Use everything you can to make your org better.
The Eagles sure were an interesting experiment last year related to this because it had a number of AHL/NHL prospects on it and experienced hardly any roster turn-over all year relative to other teams. I suspect this was because it kind of was a temporary AHL-like affiliate for the Avs wasn't it?

The biggest complaint by local fans is how AHL contracts can lead to roster turn-over, but if you stock the ECHL affiliate roster 80-90% AHL/NHL contracted players then there will not be a lot of in-season turn-over because there is nowhere for those guys to go. That is what I think the Growlers are going to look like this year.
 

royals119

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The Eagles sure were an interesting experiment last year related to this because it had a number of AHL/NHL prospects on it and experienced hardly any roster turn-over all year relative to other teams. I suspect this was because it kind of was a temporary AHL-like affiliate for the Avs wasn't it?

The biggest complaint by local fans is how AHL contracts can lead to roster turn-over, but if you stock the ECHL affiliate roster 80-90% AHL/NHL contracted players then there will not be a lot of in-season turn-over because there is nowhere for those guys to go. That is what I think the Growlers are going to look like this year.
There is quite a bit of variability in how NHL teams (and AHL teams) use the ECHL. At one end of the spectrum you have Toronto, who has signed multiple AHL contracts the last few years and stocked their ECHL affiliate. It hasn't always resulted in a winning team at the ECHL level. The one advantage is that those players can't be called up to other AHL teams, so there should be less roster turnover - although if the Maple Leafs and Marlies have a lot of injuries, the Growlers could end up shorthanded. This also means that the NHL/AHL team is probably signing those players with their own priorities in mind, and maybe not with any particular care to building a good ECHL team. They may sign a lot of talented players, but not enough PKers or leaders in the locker room for example. Also, if the team isn't doing well, or certain players are underperforming or have attitude issues, the ECHL coach has less latitude to make changes.

At the other end of the spectrum would be a team that doesn't assign any players to the ECHL, and simply uses their affiliate to take ECHL contracted players to fill in roster holes in the AHL during the season. This gives the ECHL coach/GM more latitude in choosing their own roster, so they might end up with a better mix of players. However, those players can also be called up to any AHL team, so depending on how well they play, and how close the team is to other AHL teams, they could get picked apart. Also, they will have a hard time signing more high end talent, since they don't have the AHL team paying the majority of those players salaries. The connections the ECHL coach/GM has in this model are key in having a successful team. Other factors can play into it also. Florida has an easier time recruiting players vs Reading for example, just because of the climate. Reading has the advantage of being within an easy drive of Hershey, Allentown, WBS, Binghamton, Syracuse, and Utica, so players more interested in callups than beaches might prefer to be here.

St John's won't have either of those advantages, so aligning with a team like Toronto might have been their best move. Portland may have trouble recruiting too, although they are close enough to the New England AHL teams that they may get players called up there. Riley Armstrong is a first time head coach, so he doesn't have too much of a reputation or name recognition to draw players. New teams (whether expansion or moving a franchise) tend to have a harder time recruiting the first year. The Royals were similar to Portland in that they were a relocated franchise, but didn't bring any player rights or staff from Columbus. The first year they just weren't skilled enough to compete. They played hard, and were entertaining, but didn't have enough top end skill to compete.

Also, teams have different philosophies about releasing contract information. For example, there was an article in our local paper yesterday where the coach mentioned that he has a few more players signed, but they haven't released their names yet. The Royals like to spread the announcements out over the course of the summer. Some teams announce the signings as they occur. Some teams save all their signings and release them in September, just before training camp opens. So judging a team based on what they have announced so far can be misleading.
 

Growler

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May 16, 2018
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There is quite a bit of variability in how NHL teams (and AHL teams) use the ECHL. At one end of the spectrum you have Toronto, who has signed multiple AHL contracts the last few years and stocked their ECHL affiliate. It hasn't always resulted in a winning team at the ECHL level. The one advantage is that those players can't be called up to other AHL teams, so there should be less roster turnover - although if the Maple Leafs and Marlies have a lot of injuries, the Growlers could end up shorthanded. This also means that the NHL/AHL team is probably signing those players with their own priorities in mind, and maybe not with any particular care to building a good ECHL team. They may sign a lot of talented players, but not enough PKers or leaders in the locker room for example. Also, if the team isn't doing well, or certain players are underperforming or have attitude issues, the ECHL coach has less latitude to make changes.

At the other end of the spectrum would be a team that doesn't assign any players to the ECHL, and simply uses their affiliate to take ECHL contracted players to fill in roster holes in the AHL during the season. This gives the ECHL coach/GM more latitude in choosing their own roster, so they might end up with a better mix of players. However, those players can also be called up to any AHL team, so depending on how well they play, and how close the team is to other AHL teams, they could get picked apart. Also, they will have a hard time signing more high end talent, since they don't have the AHL team paying the majority of those players salaries. The connections the ECHL coach/GM has in this model are key in having a successful team. Other factors can play into it also. Florida has an easier time recruiting players vs Reading for example, just because of the climate. Reading has the advantage of being within an easy drive of Hershey, Allentown, WBS, Binghamton, Syracuse, and Utica, so players more interested in callups than beaches might prefer to be here.

St John's won't have either of those advantages, so aligning with a team like Toronto might have been their best move. Portland may have trouble recruiting too, although they are close enough to the New England AHL teams that they may get players called up there. Riley Armstrong is a first time head coach, so he doesn't have too much of a reputation or name recognition to draw players. New teams (whether expansion or moving a franchise) tend to have a harder time recruiting the first year. The Royals were similar to Portland in that they were a relocated franchise, but didn't bring any player rights or staff from Columbus. The first year they just weren't skilled enough to compete. They played hard, and were entertaining, but didn't have enough top end skill to compete.

Also, teams have different philosophies about releasing contract information. For example, there was an article in our local paper yesterday where the coach mentioned that he has a few more players signed, but they haven't released their names yet. The Royals like to spread the announcements out over the course of the summer. Some teams announce the signings as they occur. Some teams save all their signings and release them in September, just before training camp opens. So judging a team based on what they have announced so far can be misleading.


Great post. There does seem to be a slow-moving evolution happening in the ECHL. The numbers are bearing this out for the close to 5 years I have been tracking them. But not all teams appear to be on this train - NHL or ECHL. I think it is fascinating. For the ones that are on this train, like the Leafs being the most obvious example, I am thinking that it is Cap Economics that is driving the behavior - and specifically, the NHL GM's Cap philosophy. I believe the Leafs are willing to pay big salaries to super stars, and expect 5-8 players on their 23 man roster making less than $1M. As such loading up on AHL contracts seems to feed into this development model. BTW - it looks like the Flyers are in this Camp too.
 
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210

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WTF does Worcester have to do with this?

But if you want to compare, the Islanders used the ECHL quite heavily. They assigned 8 AHL contracted players onto the Railers last year. Second only to the Orlando/Marlie/Leaf franchise with 12. Additionally, over the past 3 years the Islanders and the Leafs leveraged the AHL contract heavier than any other franchises. And this trend is continuing this year too.

I like it when other people make my posts for me, it makes life so much easier.
 

210

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There is quite a bit of variability in how NHL teams (and AHL teams) use the ECHL. At one end of the spectrum you have Toronto, who has signed multiple AHL contracts the last few years and stocked their ECHL affiliate. It hasn't always resulted in a winning team at the ECHL level. The one advantage is that those players can't be called up to other AHL teams, so there should be less roster turnover - although if the Maple Leafs and Marlies have a lot of injuries, the Growlers could end up shorthanded. This also means that the NHL/AHL team is probably signing those players with their own priorities in mind, and maybe not with any particular care to building a good ECHL team. They may sign a lot of talented players, but not enough PKers or leaders in the locker room for example. Also, if the team isn't doing well, or certain players are underperforming or have attitude issues, the ECHL coach has less latitude to make changes.

At the other end of the spectrum would be a team that doesn't assign any players to the ECHL, and simply uses their affiliate to take ECHL contracted players to fill in roster holes in the AHL during the season. This gives the ECHL coach/GM more latitude in choosing their own roster, so they might end up with a better mix of players. However, those players can also be called up to any AHL team, so depending on how well they play, and how close the team is to other AHL teams, they could get picked apart. Also, they will have a hard time signing more high end talent, since they don't have the AHL team paying the majority of those players salaries. The connections the ECHL coach/GM has in this model are key in having a successful team. Other factors can play into it also. Florida has an easier time recruiting players vs Reading for example, just because of the climate. Reading has the advantage of being within an easy drive of Hershey, Allentown, WBS, Binghamton, Syracuse, and Utica, so players more interested in callups than beaches might prefer to be here.

St John's won't have either of those advantages, so aligning with a team like Toronto might have been their best move. Portland may have trouble recruiting too, although they are close enough to the New England AHL teams that they may get players called up there. Riley Armstrong is a first time head coach, so he doesn't have too much of a reputation or name recognition to draw players. New teams (whether expansion or moving a franchise) tend to have a harder time recruiting the first year. The Royals were similar to Portland in that they were a relocated franchise, but didn't bring any player rights or staff from Columbus. The first year they just weren't skilled enough to compete. They played hard, and were entertaining, but didn't have enough top end skill to compete.

Also, teams have different philosophies about releasing contract information. For example, there was an article in our local paper yesterday where the coach mentioned that he has a few more players signed, but they haven't released their names yet. The Royals like to spread the announcements out over the course of the summer. Some teams announce the signings as they occur. Some teams save all their signings and release them in September, just before training camp opens. So judging a team based on what they have announced so far can be misleading.

But...but...what about Worcester? :sarcasm:
 
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Growler

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But...but...what about Worcester? :sarcasm:
OK I am new to this Sub Group. I'm starting to get a feel for the main characters.

From now on, I will make sure to link things back to Worcester somehow, some-way. :nod:

Edit: Worcester is continuing the Islanders model from Kansas City it appears. No team has transformed more AHL contracted players into NHL ELCs more than the Islanders (and their affiliates) have the last 3 years: (4)
Scott Eansor, Travis St.DenisTanner Fritz, Kane Lafranchise
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tied with Florida and Colorado.
 
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210

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It's actually much more basic than that...many teams sign a lot of guys quickly, and then slowly announce them over the summer. Plus ECHL contracts aren't guaranteed, so just because a player has a contract now doesn't mean they will after training camp is over.
 

Growler

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It's actually much more basic than that...many teams sign a lot of guys quickly, and then slowly announce them over the summer. Plus ECHL contracts aren't guaranteed, so just because a player has a contract now doesn't mean they will after training camp is over.
Maybe so, but I don't think that is what's going on in the Maine/Ranger Leafs/Growlers situations.
 

Growler

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May 16, 2018
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It's an important point that's not mentioned in the article.


And of course, there was no mention of Worcester in the article.

Little known fact: Holy Cross University based in Worcester actually played in the Orange Bowl in 1945.
 

210

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And of course, there was no mention of Worcester in the article.

Little known fact: Holy Cross University based in Worcester actually played in the Orange Bowl in 1945.

I can forgive the writer for the transgression as he is likely unaware of the importance of Worcester in the ECHL, and in fact in all of pro hockey.

I was aware that The College of the Holy Cross was in the Orange Bowl. I was also aware they lost to one of the NCAA football teams I intensely dislike. :pout:
 

royals119

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Nope. Neither was caps lock
Do you have a link? I checked around and the shift key was invented in 1894. (Prior to that typewriters either had only one case of letters, or had two separate keyboards, once for small letters and one for capitals.) Most articles on the subject say that "shift lock" came shortly after, as it was difficult for typists to hold the shift key down with a pinkie, since it was a mechanical key that physically raised the carriage of a typewriter. I couldn't find an actual date for the invention of shift lock though. It wasn't renamed "caps lock" until computer keyboards came out, so certainly from a strict interpretation you are correct, but the shift lock is clearly the predecessor and may have been available prior to 1917. :D

(I tried to type this in incomplete and run on sentences, with random capitalization, but just couldn't do it)
Derek Army, Worcester's new assistant coach, was a Royals killer when he played with the Nailers. Hopefully it doesn't carry over to his career behind the bench with the Railers.
 
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Growler

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May 16, 2018
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Do you have a link? I checked around and the shift key was invented in 1894. (Prior to that typewriters either had only one case of letters, or had two separate keyboards, once for small letters and one for capitals.) Most articles on the subject say that "shift lock" came shortly after, as it was difficult for typists to hold the shift key down with a pinkie, since it was a mechanical key that physically raised the carriage of a typewriter. I couldn't find an actual date for the invention of shift lock though. It wasn't renamed "caps lock" until computer keyboards came out, so certainly from a strict interpretation you are correct, but the shift lock is clearly the predecessor and may have been available prior to 1917. :D

(I tried to type this in incomplete and run on sentences, with random capitalization, but just couldn't do it)

Nice post, but I don't see any reference to Worcester.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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Auburn, Maine
and another article on the Maine vs. Growler approaches: What’s up in Newfoundland?.

The writer gets a B for missing Worcester.
Growler:

that's why Newfoundland is a lot different & is more in line with Worcester than Portland, as royals eloquently told you as an experienced veteran of the ECHL.... THAT writer has it absolutely correct..... Portland isn't a true expansion team in any sense as the Railers were last season and Growlers are, hence why the two are linked more so than the operators..

remember the original reply to you when you started this thread, that royals validated what I already told you was the primary difference, what the writer missed in respect though Spectra runs the business ops of the Wolf*Pack, which most Worcester fans and others likely know that, it's just the affiliation isn't the Flyers which has already been outlined in the Portland thread here as well as others.... in all honesty, no Portland fan has any idea who will the Rangers assign as contracted players and comparing what they've done in Greenville, Charlotte or past affiliation has little to no bearing on what happens going forward....

Portland fans may have reservations initially, just as we've had with any affiliation until a year or so, and we may or may not know what the Rangers philosophy actually is, in fact, even veteran Ranger fans are still trying to figure out how David Quinn's style adapts to the NHL, and how that philosophy filters down to Hartford and then Riley Armstrong, who as Royals also stated is a new coach somewhat familiar with the ECHL game, but an unknown....

Clowe may have an advantage early on, but again, he's in the same spot as Armstrong, but with MLSE putting full bore behind Newfoundland with the longer affiliation, than is typical, I think the major difference is the affiliation.
 

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