New Back Check: 2 Red Wings and a GOAT

[rnhaas]

Hi all,
We have a new episode of our hockey podcast where we try to decide who belongs in the Hall of Fame. In this episode, we talk about two Red Wings who played their entire careers with Detroit. Then, we include an Old Timer who had nothing to do with Detroit or the Red Wings because there was no pro Detroit team when he was playing:

• Eligible player: Henrik Zetterberg
• Player inducted in 2009: Steve Yzerman
• Old timer: Tommy Smith (our unofficial MVP in three NHA seasons)

As always, you can listen on iTunes or here. Show notes are at the links above.

Thanks as always for listening and for letting us share it here. Enjoy.

Click to read more...

 

[tony d]

Thanks for sharing this. Zetterberg, to me, is a Hall of Famer. Not sure he's 1st ballot though.

 

[rnhaas]

I thought so too. And then we talked about it and I was less sure.

 

[wetcoast]

Thanks for sharing this. Zetterberg, to me, is a Hall of Famer. Not sure he's 1st ballot though.

Zetterberg's playoff resume along with an excellent 2 way prime of 10 straight years followed by a so so age 35 season but very good aged 36 and 37 seasons make him a HHOFer and quite easily IMO.

Put another way his resume looks very good against Toews and Bergeron who are basically locks at this point right?

 

[GMR]

Zetterberg's playoff resume along with an excellent 2 way prime of 10 straight years followed by a so so age 35 season but very good aged 36 and 37 seasons make him a HHOFer and quite easily IMO.

Put another way his resume looks very good against Toews and Bergeron who are basically locks at this point right?

Not sure. He didn't win many individual awards or have many postseason All-Star awards. He was a consistent player and a great playoff performer in his peak from 2007-2011. That will help his cause.

His closest comparable is probably Datsyuk. Datsyuk was not as good a playoff performer as Zetterberg, however, he had the three Selke trophies and four Lady Byngs.

 

[wetcoast]

Not sure. He didn't win many individual awards or have many postseason All-Star awards. He was a consistent player and a great playoff performer in his peak from 2007-2011. That will help his cause.

His closest comparable is probably Datsyuk. Datsyuk was not as good a playoff performer as Zetterberg, however, he had the three Selke trophies and four Lady Byngs.

He wasn't just a great playoff performer for that 5 year period, he was arguably the best in the world over that time period.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

He was certainly the best forward playoff performer in the NHL over that time period and he has 2 other decent playoff performances outside of that 5 year span as well.

 

[The Panther]

'Should Zetterberg be a Hall of Famer?' is a good question. (I'm not gonna ask, "Is he a Hall of Famer?", since, after Andreychuk, Housley, and Carbonneau, he clearly is according to the lowered standards.)

I liked Zetterberg a lot, so I'm inclined to favor him. He's lacking hardware, but so are a lot of great guys in deep eras. If he makes it in, what probably pushed him over the edge are (1) his teams were great/competitive, like, every year until 2015-16 anyway, and (2) his playoff performances are quite stellar. If you remove 16 playoff games from the start of his career, and remove 12 games from his last two seasons (when he was kind of old) to just focus on his prime, he scored 119 points in 109 playoff games, while going +46. That's rather incredible.

 

[rnhaas]

He wasn't just a great playoff performer for that 5 year period, he was arguably the best in the world over that time period.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

He was certainly the best forward playoff performer in the NHL over that time period and he has 2 other decent playoff performances outside of that 5 year span as well.

Sort that list by PPG instead of points and it paints a bit of a different picture...

 

[wetcoast]

Sort that list by PPG instead of points and it paints a bit of a different picture...

Not really as I said the top forward not fantasy hockey forward.

his +- of 49 also really stands out among the top PPG guys and don't forget those extra games are deeper in the playoffs.

 

[rnhaas]

Not really as I said the top forward not fantasy hockey forward.

What does that mean? Per game rate stats are a far better indication of how good a player is at scoring than straight totals, though they're still not as good as even-strength rate stats per 60 minutes. (Provided the sample is big enough.)

And whether or not scoring is more impressive deeper in the playoffs depends upon quality of competition and whether or not the player in question is playing through injuries or more tired than earlier rounds (or what have you), doesn't it?

If we're talking about players on that list to play in at least 80 playoffs games, then I agree with you, he's very clearly the best forward. (By a large margin.) But I'm not sure we can write off all of those other players with better PPG (and worse +/-, as you point out) just because Zetterberg was on the better team.

 

[wetcoast]

What does that mean? Per game rate stats are a far better indication of how good a player is at scoring than straight totals, though they're still not as good as even-strength rate stats per 60 minutes. (Provided the sample is big enough.)

And whether or not scoring is more impressive deeper in the playoffs depends upon quality of competition and whether or not the player in question is playing through injuries or more tired than earlier rounds (or what have you), doesn't it?

If we're talking about players on that list to play in at least 80 playoffs games, then I agree with you, he's very clearly the best forward. (By a large margin.) But I'm not sure we can write off all of those other players with better PPG (and worse +/-, as you point out) just because Zetterberg was on the better team.

The thing is that Zetterberg was playing heavy minutes for the Red Wings and was an extremely responsible defensive player, pretty close or even elite in the time period in question and especially when compared to the other players who had better PPG.

Also Zetterberg was year in year out over that time period one of the top 2 forwards and thus played a huge part in Detroit playing in more games than some of the other players.

 

[Big Phil]

Yes, I think he will get in, and while he will be on the lower tier, he SHOULD be in too in my opinion. He doesn't have the lock cinch case of Datsyuk, but you can't ignore those postseasons. I think without the great postseason success it gets harder to put him in, but it will surprise many he was a top 10 scorer in the NHL twice. You do have to factor in the two-way play to truly judge his career. But I think he is a HHOFer, even if it is just barely.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, I think he will get in, and while he will be on the lower tier, he SHOULD be in too in my opinion. He doesn't have the lock cinch case of Datsyuk, but you can't ignore those postseasons. I think without the great postseason success it gets harder to put him in, but it will surprise many he was a top 10 scorer in the NHL twice. You do have to factor in the two-way play to truly judge his career. But I think he is a HHOFer, even if it is just barely.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Bergeron, Toews and Kopitar at this point?

 

[seventieslord]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Bergeron, Toews and Kopitar at this point?

All in. Toews may be a little overrated but still comfortably a HHOFer.

 

[Big Phil]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Bergeron, Toews and Kopitar at this point?

Out of the three, and even including Zetterberg I would say, Bergeron is the leader in this pack. Toews would be after him though. So yeah, those two are comfortably in there I think. Kopitar.............hmmmm, yeah he's in. Gets less press and outside of the two Cup runs not a whole lot on his playoff resume, but those two years were pretty good. And he's just 32. It might help that he is by far the best player to come out of Slovenia. I don't always buy that, Nik Antropov is probably the best Kazak, but Kopitar does do it more on his own. If he is the victim of anything it will be because he does his job much quieter than anyone else and gets forgotten on the west coast Kings.

 

[wetcoast]

Out of the three, and even including Zetterberg I would say, Bergeron is the leader in this pack. Toews would be after him though. So yeah, those two are comfortably in there I think. Kopitar.............hmmmm, yeah he's in. Gets less press and outside of the two Cup runs not a whole lot on his playoff resume, but those two years were pretty good. And he's just 32. It might help that he is by far the best player to come out of Slovenia. I don't always buy that, Nik Antropov is probably the best Kazak, but Kopitar does do it more on his own. If he is the victim of anything it will be because he does his job much quieter than anyone else and gets forgotten on the west coast Kings.

As on right now I have them ranked this way

Zetterberg
Toews
Bergeron
Kopitar

but honestly they might end up in a totally different order when it's all said and done.

I also think that all 4 are HHOF players but I really wonder how the Hall will deal with Kopitar.

 

[GMR]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Bergeron, Toews and Kopitar at this point?

I would take a peak Zetterberg over any of those players offensively. Defensively, you have to think Bergeron is the best of the group. Too many Selke trophies to ignore.

I think by the time they all retire, the media will have Tayes first by a comfortable margin, Bergeron after that, and Zetterberg likely third. However, Kopitar can still do some things that make him pass Zetterberg.