Player Discussion Neal Pionk

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yeah man, I'm sure AM54 could've led that rush and danced Barkov at the line.

Those were two of his better plays all night. If kreider can control that pass thats an Apple well earned for Pionk. I'm excited that hes proving effective offensively. I wish his defensive game was better but thatll come with time and experience.

I've said all along its not ADA vs Pionk. They should both be playing and if one has to go down the line atleast we know which one is better.

 

[True Blue]

Nah I'm pretty sure people take those things into account. Hell, advanced stats can take that into account by adjusting for quality of competition and quality of linemates and giving you information on based on those things. You claim it's people looking to confirm their viewing and it always beats the eye-test, but I feel like we get plenty of people saying their eye test is 100% accurate and any numbers to the contrary are BS.

[/QUOTE]
I would actually disagree with the assertion and agree with Ola. I think that people blindly look at metrics and make their decisions based upon that. Plenty of examples of that.

I think that Pionk has availed himself at a decent level. He should not have to be looked upon as the top shut down defenseman, considering how many games he has played in the NHL. I do not see him as a future top-pairing defenseman. But he could wind up being a decent #4. Again, need more time to evaluate.

 

[duhmetreE]

You know why analytics are not the best? They say Shattenkirk is good.

They're not the entire picture. There have flaws. Basing all your opinions, solely on them, is folly

 

[SA16]

Pionk has 5 PP assists. Only 2 on Zibby goals. And I'd argue Pionk did a good job setting him up on the one last night

Shattenkirk has 1 PP assist on the year and that was on a Kreider goal.

But lets not give Pionk any credit

Not saying its all Pionk. But discrediting him and saying "you can put anyone there" is not right

He had 5 PPA in 28 games last year and 6 PPA in 48 AHL games. The fact that he has 5 PPA in 7 games so far tells you little about what should be expected going forward. And yes, I think that you can put almost any right handed shot defenseman in that role on the PP and they will rack up a lot of power play assists. We've seen it happen in Washington with four different players (Green/Niskanen/Shattenkirk/Carlson). It's happening so far for NYR.

You know why analytics are not the best? They say Shattenkirk is good.

They're not the entire picture. There have flaws. Basing all your opinions, solely on them, is folly

And why does that make them wrong?

 

[duhmetreE]

And why does that make them wrong?

He's not a good player. He's actually a detriment

 

[SA16]

He's not a good player. He's actually a detriment

Oh. Ok. That settles it then.

Must be some player to be a detriment while consistently wildly outattempting, outshooting, and outscoring his opponents while on the ice at 5v5 and being essentially the number one point scoring defenseman on the PP over the last 5 or so years. Not to mention he's actually been a highly successful PKer in his career too. In his time in STL on the PK, he allows 2 less CA60 than Pietrangelo, 3.5 less SA60, and 0.5 less GA60.

He's actually really good at everything.

 

[duhmetreE]

Oh. Ok. That settles it then.

Ok.

 

[Off Sides]

My take

Pionk at even strength has played with Staal and Skjei, surprisingly to my eyes more with Skjei (49%)than Staal(40%)
Neal Pionk - Frozen Tools
(have to click on line combos to get the %)

On ice even attempts against
Skjei 197
Staal 152
Pionk 152

Attempt for
Skjei 175
Staal 152
Pionk 104
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

My question would be why is Pionk on for that many less even attempts for, that is effecting his CF% more than attempts against.

Is Staal really helping towards those for attempts more than Pionk?

Or maybe Staal's attempts for is benefiting from playing time with other partners?
Staal with
Pionk 39%
Smith 34%
Shattenkirk 15%
Marc Staal - Frozen Tools

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I've said all along its not ADA vs Pionk. They should both be playing and if one has to go down the line atleast we know which one is better.

How long before Shittenkirk remembers how talented he is or sits so deAngelo can play? Quinn must have identified some HUGE red flags in that he wants him at practice but won't play him.

Or is he not waiver exempt? still ELC, no?

 

[duhmetreE]

Oh. Ok. That settles it then.

Must be some player to be a detriment while consistently wildly outattempting, outshooting, and outscoring his opponents while on the ice at 5v5 and being essentially the number one point scoring defenseman on the PP over the last 5 or so years. Not to mention he's actually been a highly successful PKer in his career too. In his time in STL on the PK, he allows 2 less CA60 than Pietrangelo, 3.5 less SA60, and 0.5 less GA60.

He's actually really good at everything.

He's a detriment. A playoff team will not win with him unless he's buried. He will be exposed.

He has not been a good player. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

 

[SA16]

He's a detriment. A playoff team will not win with him unless he's buried. He will be exposed.

He has not been a good player. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

Well as the say you have to know when you’re beat. As we can all see from the objective logic above Shattenkirk is a detriment and a playoff team can’t win with him. It’s kind off odd that I’ve also been told in the past that a playoff team couldn’t win with Ovechkin or Kessel but what do i even know anymore?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Shattenkirk is so bad defensively that his expected save% is second highest on the team and his expected shooting% is ~7% and on-ice shooting% is 1.5%. What a bum. -4.

 

[SA16]

Shattenkirk is so bad defensively that his expected save% is second highest on the team and his expected shooting% is ~7% and on-ice shooting% is 1.5%. What a bum. -4.

You can't win with him.

 

[Crease]

You can win with Shattenkirk if he's your 4/5 defenseman.

 

[DanielBrassard]

My take

Pionk at even strength has played with Staal and Skjei, surprisingly to my eyes more with Skjei (49%)than Staal(40%)
Neal Pionk - Frozen Tools
(have to click on line combos to get the %)

On ice even attempts against
Skjei 197
Staal 152
Pionk 152

Attempt for
Skjei 175
Staal 152
Pionk 104
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

My question would be why is Pionk on for that many less even attempts for, that is effecting his CF% more than attempts against.

Is Staal really helping towards those for attempts more than Pionk?

Or maybe Staal's attempts for is benefiting from playing time with other partners?
Staal with
Pionk 39%
Smith 34%
Shattenkirk 15%
Marc Staal - Frozen Tools

Pionk has dragged down everyone he has played with, when it comes to shot generation and shot suppression. He also leads the Rangers defense in Toi%QoT and CF%QoT which indicates he has been playing with the Rangers best players more often than anyone else. He also gets similar zone starts, for whatever they are worth, as supposedly terrible Shattenkirk. Of course, it's a SSS and it doesn't determine the rest of Pionk's career but up until this point he's been a detriment at best 5v5, and it's a continuation of last season. Actually he was slightly better last season.

Edit: He's 2nd to McQuaid in TOI%QoT.

 

[DanielBrassard]

You can win with Shattenkirk if he's your 4/5 defenseman.

Win what? The Blues routinely were one of the best teams in hockey with him as the #3.

 

[Ola]

Nah I'm pretty sure people take those things into account. Hell, advanced stats can take that into account by adjusting for quality of competition and quality of linemates and giving you information on based on those things. You claim it's people looking to confirm their viewing and it always beats the eye-test, but I feel like we get plenty of people saying their eye test is 100% accurate and any numbers to the contrary are BS.

Putting up poor numbers while playing hard minutes just means that you're not good enough to play hard minutes in an effective way. The top D's in the league can play hard minutes and put up good numbers, it's not some inevitability that if you go up against the other teams top players then you're always going to have poor numbers. Some guys can do it, most guys can't. Pionk is a guy who so far has shown that he can't. That by itself doesn't mean he sucks, just that he shouldn't be looked at as a top pair guy who can handle those minutes.

Mayyybe the coaches are hoping that by throwing him into the fire he'll progress better but I have my doubts.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

So you mean that people only are questioning his ability to play hard minutes? That hasn’t been by impression. I see a lot of comments about his defense being awful period. It’s definitely a truth with a boat load of modifications.

 

[Off Sides]

Pionk has dragged down everyone he has played with, when it comes to shot generation and shot suppression. He also leads the Rangers defense in Toi%QoT and CF%QoT which indicates he has been playing with the Rangers best players more often than anyone else. He also gets similar zone starts, for whatever they are worth, as supposedly terrible Shattenkirk. Of course, it's a SSS and it doesn't determine the rest of Pionk's career but up until this point he's been a detriment at best 5v5, and it's a continuation of last season. Actually he was slightly better last season.

I am not saying I agree or disagree, I am questioning why if he has played like ~90% of his time with those two players, why does his on ice show he has so many (~50) less attempts for?

I mean over 7 games that seems somewhat improbable, no?

 

[lilphildub]

He had 5 PPA in 28 games last year and 6 PPA in 48 AHL games. The fact that he has 5 PPA in 7 games so far tells you little about what should be expected going forward. And yes, I think that you can put almost any right handed shot defenseman in that role on the PP and they will rack up a lot of power play assists. We've seen it happen in Washington with four different players (Green/Niskanen/Shattenkirk/Carlson). It's happening so far for NYR.

"Per Game" isn't accurate.

Shattenkirk
17-19
PPTOI 170.52
PPG 2
PPA 11

Pionk
17-19
PPTOI 48:27
PPG 0
PPA 10

Why is it so hard for Shattenkirk to rack up assists if its so easy?

I don't understand why you can't give Pionk credit. Whether its a streak or not,what he's doing is pretty impressive to me

 

[SA16]

"Per Game" isn't accurate.

Shattenkirk
17-19
PPTOI 170.52
PPG 2
PPA 11

Pionk
17-19
PPTOI 48:27
PPG 0
PPA 10

Why is it so hard for Shattenkirk to rack up assists if its so easy?

I don't understand why you can't give Pionk credit. Whether its a streak or not,what he's doing is pretty impressive to me

10 PPA in 48 PP mins is a fluke unless you think he's literally the best powerplay defenseman in the history of the NHL and by a wide margin.

The highest rate anyone has since 07-08 (Corsica data) is Morgan Rielly at 4.58/60 then Shattenkirk at 4.41. Pionk is at 12.4 which is unreasonable.

It is obviously a good thing that he has been producing and is better than him having 0 pts in 48 mins but he's playing in the easiest PP role and producing at a rate that has no chance of continuing and tells you very little about how he will do going forward.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I am not saying I agree or disagree, I am questioning why if he has played like ~90% of his time with those two players, why does his on ice show he has so many (~50) less attempts for?

Because he's bad at defending his blue line and poor at helping transition the puck out of his zone? I don't really know the answer to that. Let's look at the CF/60 with and without Pionk for Skjei and Staal.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Delete.

 

[mrmovies779]

Kid has it rougher with posters here then he does on the ice kid cant catch a break with some of you on here

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

How long before ****tenkirk remembers how talented he is or sits so deAngelo can play? Quinn must have identified some HUGE red flags in that he wants him at practice but won't play him.

Or is he not waiver exempt? still ELC, no?

ADA is not waiver exempt. BUT he earned his spot on the team. He's been good everytime hes had the opportunity to play. I think the FO jumped the gun bringing in some of the veteran blue liners this off-season as a back up plan. In the more immediate future I think Quinn has more to gain from letting Shattenkirk try to play his way out of his funk, than benching him. That being said theres no reason why Pionk, ADA, and Shattenkirk can't all play.

 

[lilphildub]

10 PPA in 48 PP mins is a fluke unless you think he's literally the best powerplay defenseman in the history of the NHL and by a wide margin.

The highest rate anyone has since 07-08 (Corsica data) is Morgan Rielly at 4.58/60 then Shattenkirk at 4.41. Pionk is at 12.4 which is unreasonable.

It is obviously a good thing that he has been producing and is better than him having 0 pts in 48 mins but he's playing in the easiest PP role and producing at a rate that has no chance of continuing and tells you very little about how he will do going forward.

I don't think we're even talking about the same thing at this point. Did I say anywhere it was sustainable? Nope. But is it impressive? Yes. Especially when Shattenkirk can't buy an assist right now. You ride Pionk on the PP until he cools off. You don't put Shatty back there just because.

If Buchnevich scored 5 goals in 5 games, is it sustainable? Nope. Is it impressive? Yes.

Pionk isn't just handing the puck off to Zibby. He's part of the reason its working.