NCAA to allow CHL players to play hockey?

[patnyrnyg]

I've seen even the southern schools have hockey teams, like Clemson, Texas. No clue if they would be considered the equivalent of Division II when compared to football given that they are not of the quality of Michigan, BU, BC, UND, etc. So, unless there is a great explosion of hockey programs, only so many scholarships to go around.

But, I do think USports in Canada would take a hit in terms of the quality of player for sure.

I believe those are club teams and part of what is called the ACHA. Players are not on scholarship. Receive funding from the school, but also do their own fundraising and players have to pay. Don't get me wrong, the hockey is very competitive. You are not going to see a team with a player who joined the team because his friend is on it and they had an extra set of jerseys if the kid can't play. My friend's son tried out at Penn St for their club team. They had 60 freshmen try out of for 4 spots. No, my friend's son did not make it,

 

[oldunclehue]

Maybe - MAYBE - it averages out to one per team. I'm hesitant to even say it's that high.

It would be far more than that on average. The team I am involved with has likely over 10 players that have had strong interest from WHL teams from about the age 16....they decided not to go that route as it would ruin eligibility.

WHL teams have a thing about signing as many younger kids to standard WHL scholarship agreements as they can so they lock kids in at a young age. I am not sure of the legalities behind the contract signing as I was always told you have to suite up in a game to ruin it....but it seems like signing now can ruin the eligibility as well.

And the amazing part is most of the WHL guys who get returned to our organization aren't game breakers and many other kids on our roster could of made the jump to WHL if they were willing to go that extra bit.

I think this will have a pretty good impact on top end junior A talent in leagues across Canada as well as any recruiting because whats there to lose now if you decide to go to a CHL camp....

 

[BMN]

I believe those are club teams and part of what is called the ACHA. Players are not on scholarship. Receive funding from the school, but also do their own fundraising and players have to pay. Don't get me wrong, the hockey is very competitive. You are not going to see a team with a player who joined the team because his friend is on it and they had an extra set of jerseys if the kid can't play. My friend's son tried out at Penn St for their club team. They had 60 freshmen try out of for 4 spots. No, my friend's son did not make it,

People may be surprised to know how deep the club system goes in American colleges, I know I was when I first looked it up. ACHA has three men's divisions and two women's divisions (ACHA's Division 2 has a whopping 200ish schools enrolled). And much like other club sports (football comes immediately to mind***), several schools that already have NCAA programs also have a club.

***Fun fact re: that: In the 2022-23 NCAA football season, Ohio State came achingly close to beating Georgia in the national semifinal......four weeks after their football club lost its national final to a different Georgia school, Gordon State College.

 

[patnyrnyg]

People may be surprised to know how deep the club system goes in American colleges, I know I was when I first looked it up. ACHA has three men's divisions and two women's divisions (ACHA's Division 2 has a whopping 200ish schools enrolled). And much like other club sports (football comes immediately to mind***), several schools that already have NCAA programs also have a club.

***Fun fact re: that: In the 2022-23 NCAA football season, Ohio State came achingly close to beating Georgia in the national semifinal......four weeks after their football club lost its national final to a different Georgia school, Gordon State College.

I was not aware there were club teams for football. Only knew about lightweight. But yes, the ACHA is huge. I had no idea until I saw a post on a hockey parents facebook group about a showcase (tryout) event for the ACHA. One of the bullet-points in the ad was something about getting seen by over 100 schools. My daughter is only 10 so the ad wasn't for me, but curiosity got the best of me.

 

[Voight]

Biggest loser is probably USports. Alot of those players they rely on would ultimately choose the NCAA route instead.

CHL covers one year of tuition per season played, so yea while the "better" players would choose NCAA, Sports would still likely have a good chunk of guys. The ones who can't afford college tuition or don't get scholarships.

 

[jetsmooseice]

CHL covers one year of tuition per season played, so yea while the "better" players would choose NCAA, Sports would still likely have a good chunk of guys. The ones who can't afford college tuition or don't get scholarships.

As it is right now though, there are probably a lot of USports players who could play NCAA but are locked out due to their CHL history. Once that is no longer an issue, only those who have exhausted their NCAA scholarship options will play USports, certainly when it comes to DI.

(DIII schools I'm not so sure... could Salve Regina lure someone away from UBC if both are offering scholarships?)

 

[oldunclehue]

As it is right now though, there are probably a lot of USports players who could play NCAA but are locked out due to their CHL history. Once that is no longer an issue, only those who have exhausted their NCAA scholarship options will play USports, certainly when it comes to DI.

(DIII schools I'm not so sure... could Salve Regina lure someone away from UBC if both are offering scholarships?)

From my understanding Div III doesn't offer scholarships, they may give lowered tuition or some money towards things but the guys I know who went Div III said actual scholarships don't happen.

 

[jetsmooseice]

From my understanding Div III doesn't offer scholarships, they may give lowered tuition or some money towards things but the guys I know who went Div III said actual scholarships don't happen.

OK, thank you for the clarification. So nothing really changes in relation to DIII. But certainly for DI, at least where scholarships are involved, it's fair to say that most CHL players who aren't going pro are going to exhaust every possibility before they turn to USports.

That will be quite a difference from right now, where a good many CHL players who don't stick with pro teams head the USports route.

 

[Yukon Joe]

OK, thank you for the clarification. So nothing really changes in relation to DIII. But certainly for DI, at least where scholarships are involved, it's fair to say that most CHL players who aren't going pro are going to exhaust every possibility before they turn to USports.

That will be quite a difference from right now, where a good many CHL players who don't stick with pro teams head the USports route.

I'm not so sure about that (but this isn't really my world).

Why would someone who has aged out of CHL be so worried about attending (I dunno) Lake Superior Statue University in Sault Michigan (Div 1 NCAA), instead of a USports Canadian team?

 

[oldunclehue]

I'm not so sure about that (but this isn't really my world).

Why would someone who has aged out of CHL be so worried about attending (I dunno) Lake Superior Statue University in Sault Michigan (Div 1 NCAA), instead of a USports Canadian team?

As someone who has friends who have done both, they are night and day apart in experiences.

NCAA = Full arenas, student sections that are wild, you are treated better than NHL players (see facilities like UND, Penn state etc etc), you are a hero on campus to most. You get to fly around the USA and play top talent players and play top hockey. Depending on your scholarship it could be much cheaper than a Usport "scholarship" which is offered now. You continue your development and opportunities will come from that. I recently visited a friend on a full ride to a nice spot in the USA.....it was an amazing experience to say the least. Like full on PRO/NHL lifestyle without making the millions.

USport is competitive and good hockey, but fan support is minimal, no one on campus overly cares you play hockey, the treatment is more like a Junior A/CHL experience with less fan support. Its night and day.

University life in the USA is MUCH MUCH different than in Canada. And in a lot of places the hockey players are treated like gods.

 

[oldunclehue]

OK, thank you for the clarification. So nothing really changes in relation to DIII. But certainly for DI, at least where scholarships are involved, it's fair to say that most CHL players who aren't going pro are going to exhaust every possibility before they turn to USports.

That will be quite a difference from right now, where a good many CHL players who don't stick with pro teams head the USports route.

Definitly....thats what I see it. If you are a top 6 forward in the CHL and good enough to get a scholarship or go pro (AHL/ECHL) most would choose the NCAA route just based on education, level of play, lifestyle and treatment. Many Many guys try the pro route and realize that its a difficult transition and end up in Usports (there is a cap...I believe 2 years or less and you HAVE to use the Usport scholarship or it disappears).

You simply have to look at HockeyDB to see how the minor Pro system works and how guys are forced to move all over to fight for spots. Instead take a NCAA scholarship, get a good education and play great hockey. If pro is something you want to try after then plenty of options or join the workforce after being treated like a god for 4 years on a University Campus.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Football and basketball sure, but I didn't think that hockey would get you the BMOC treatment anywhere outside of a handful of NCAA schools, haha.

I'm not sure how it is throughout U Sports, but I can tell you that of the schools I attended with hockey programs, hockey fandom and awareness ranged from practically zero (Manitoba) to slight awareness (Alberta). Actually I should give Alberta its due, I was in attendance when they captured the University Cup at home in front of over 10,000 fans.

 

[Koivu11]

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[eojsmada]

Ahh...yes...the old switcheroo. He's a better coach, obviously, because he's coached better players against better competition with a season half as long as CHL seasons.

Clearly he's just not had enough NCAA players on his NHL rosters for him to succeed at the NHL level.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So I don't get it - he says NCAA hockey is better than CHL hockey. But then what's the problem with letting CHL players into NCAA if it's so much better?

It sounds like, instead, he knows NCAA is NOT better, but he wants to keep NCAA players in NCAA, and would actually be worried about them defecting to CHL instead.

I always kind of wondered about this. If NCAA was facing a lawsuit maybe they're forced to change their policy - but why do it otherwise when there is no lawsuit on the immediate horizon?

 

[jetsmooseice]

I always kind of wondered about this. If NCAA was facing a lawsuit maybe they're forced to change their policy - but why do it otherwise when there is no lawsuit on the immediate horizon?

Why do it otherwise? I mean, why not let the best players into your league if the goal is to have the most competitive league possible? Seems to me that they have other priorities. Which is OK, it's their league.

But that said, I am fine with the NCAA doing junior A hockey in Canada a solid and continuing to exclude major junior players. Even if it makes no real sense to me.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Why do it otherwise? I mean, why not let the best players into your league if the goal is to have the most competitive league possible? Seems to me that they have other priorities. Which is OK, it's their league.

But that said, I am fine with the NCAA doing junior A hockey in Canada a solid and continuing to exclude major junior players. Even if it makes no real sense to me.

Where it is really unfair is it puts a lot of pressure on 16 year olds to try and now what direction their career is going to go, and make irrevocable decisions at that age.

Some kid at 16 can be invited to a CHL camp, play in one pre-season game, get cut - and now NCAA if forever closed as an option.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Where it is really unfair is it puts a lot of pressure on 16 year olds to try and now what direction their career is going to go, and make irrevocable decisions at that age.

Some kid at 16 can be invited to a CHL camp, play in one pre-season game, get cut - and now NCAA if forever closed as an option.

No question there. Is there truth to the rumour that CHL teams like to push 16 year olds into the lineup for a preseason game just to shut the door on the NCAA? You have to be pretty level headed (or at least have level headed parents) to resist the temptation at that age.

 

[Bjindaho]

No question there. Is there truth to the rumour that CHL teams like to push 16 year olds into the lineup for a preseason game just to shut the door on the NCAA? You have to be pretty level headed (or at least have level headed parents) to resist the temptation at that age.

No, it is incredibly rare for a major junior team to have a preseason game within the first 48 hours of camp (a player can have up to 48 hours of camp paid for by a major junior team without losing amateur status before they have to start paying for themselves) and it is very common to have a handful of kids leave at 48 hours.

 

[jetsmooseice]

No, it is incredibly rare for a major junior team to have a preseason game within the first 48 hours of camp (a player can have up to 48 hours of camp paid for by a major junior team without losing amateur status before they have to start paying for themselves) and it is very common to have a handful of kids leave at 48 hours.

This may be so... someone determined to hold on to their amateur status will make sure they don't lose it. But at the same time it's not hard to imagine a scenario where a GM sweet talks a player into thinking that they have a chance at a roster spot if they stick around and play well during the preseason.

 

[Bjindaho]

This may be so... someone determined to hold on to their amateur status will make sure they don't lose it. But at the same time it's not hard to imagine a scenario where a GM sweet talks a player into thinking that they have a chance at a roster spot if they stick around and play well during the preseason.

For non-Canadian kids, there are a lot of US coaches who actually go over the rules so kids know what they can and cannot do. For Canadian kids, a lot of them have "advisors" who know the rules.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Most kids nowadays know what the deal is, and what their goals are.

 

[WarriorofTime]

For non-Canadian kids, there are a lot of US coaches who actually go over the rules so kids know what they can and cannot do. For Canadian kids, a lot of them have "advisors" who know the rules.

These are all rich kids on both sides of the border, their families know the ins and outs very well. It's hard to even get to a point where you'd be invited to a Major Junior Ice Hockey Camp without having navigated your way around all the Minor Hockey Hoopla to get there. I don't envision there are too many naive kids getting tricked and taken advantage of these days over something like NCAA eligibility.

 

[DaveG]

From my understanding Div III doesn't offer scholarships, they may give lowered tuition or some money towards things but the guys I know who went Div III said actual scholarships don't happen.

Correct, I did a year of grad school at a Div 3 school. The football program there has even put some guys into the NFL, but they paid their own way, albeit with all kinds games played with scholarships for other things and grants to make it as cheap as it possibly could be.